Reptile & Amphibian Forums

How do you guys go about juggling a 1.2 breeding group? I have a proven pair of Hondurans and have another female I want to add to the group this year. Both females just did their first post-brumation shed. I've already introduced the male to the original female (for a few days) then separated them to feed her. At that time, I put the male in with the second female. I guess my question is how I should handle the rotation. I don't usually observe the copulation; their pretty secretive. Should I go with something like 3 days with each female, 7 days. etc.? I don't want to miss out on any ovulations.
-----
---
http://www.mikefoux.com
http://snakerack.blogspot.com

1.2.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
1.1.0 Brooksi Hypo
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
1.2.1 Leopard Geckos, various morphs
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana

I have found that Hondurans usually need 2 or 3 sheds before they breed. Therefore they tend to breed later in the year than Corn Snakes. Also, a shed doesn't always trigger an immediate reaction from the male. Sometimes the male doesn't become interested in a female until several days after she sheds.

When I have a male breeding multiple females, I put the female in the male's cage and see if he reacts by chasing her. If he does, I leave them togather for 2 or 3 days. Then I return the female to her cage. I like to give my males a day or two of "rest" between females.

If he does not react, I take the female out and try again in a week or so. I'll rotate females through a male's cage 3 or 4 times (as long as I see a reaction from the male) before I take that particular female out of the rotation.

Tim

Third Eye

A formula I use is to breed the male to Female A one day, then Female B the next day, then give the male a day or two off before doing the rotation again to recharge the batteries. I dont know where I heard this from, and may be off my rocker, but I believe they copulate with one "loaded" hemipene with the first female, then with the other "loaded" hemipene for the next female the next day (shrug???). Conversely, I will breed a male to the same female two days in a row, then give him a day or so off before trying one or two more times depending on how positive I am intromission has occurred at least twice. I dont house them together overnight, etc. during breeding and separate them when they appear to be finished and part ways. I do however need to be more attentive to make sure as best possible intromission has occurred since they are being separated and he cant "sneak one in" LOL!!

That is correct; when males breed they will use one hemipene and then use the alternate one for the next breeding. I've actually observed this many times.

Therefore you should introduce the lone male to female A twice (in a row) and then female B twice (in a row) to ensure that both hemipenes have been used to maximize egg fertility!

Also, use the female's shed in the cage and mist it with water before putting the pair together. This method has worked for me in the past. Also, it doesn't hurt to put on some Barry White as well...or my personal favorite, rump shaker.

HA!

-R

np

Exactly 3.6 hrs every other day, except on the Sabbath.. lol Sorry for that, but that is what it sounds like. Read below -

The absolutely easiest, most effective method is to let the snakes decide when and to whom. Here is what I did with Cal kings and Sinaloans years back:

1. Overwinter all breeding candidates together in a large-ish cage.
2. Warm them up in that cage. Pairs will form and you have to do absolutely nothing. No timing, no rotation, just get out of the way.
3. If you want to temporarely remove individuals for feeding, fine.
-----
Mark

this thread's a perfect example of my belief that there are many different ways of caring for and managing our snakes, no one of which is right to the exclusion of others.

Mark, I'd remind you the first anery in the country was found dead in a cage housing a group of Hondos. Ernie Wagner had raised it and was about to produce the first ever captive-bred Hondo morphs when that happened. He said you could see the marks on it where another snake had constricted it. It died gravid!

undoubtedly a rare occurrence, but cautionary tale i thought worth sharing.

i used the rotation system and moved a male through five or more females sometimes. I'd breed him, rest him a couple days, breed him to another, rest him. The females rarely all reach breeding readiness on exactly the same schedule, so he could be handling 2 or 3 at a time, with new ones into the rotation as they became ready and others finished 3 or 4 breeding engagements. I checked sperm counts and they stayed high even after 20-30 copulations.

kudos to kevinM and rusty for the comments about alternate-side fertilization. I'm guessing the sperm comes from different sources for each side? be funny if it were just two faucets tapping the same bucket.

lastly, mfoux, or the sake of your animals if I were you i''d try to stick around just long enough to gauge whether the female's receptive or not. if you hear banging and slapping, she's running and whipping her tail to deter the male's advances. it can be violent, and there's no point in subjecting them to it (in the wild she could escape, but you've got her confined...) If she's ready, they'll be cruising without objection in 10-15 minutes. If not, separate them, and try again in three. The worst that can happen, when you're rotating them, is you miss one day and two or three days later they're back together, gettin' the job done.

Terry, I am not sure if the two faucets are tapping into the one bucket or not, but that is an interesting perspective. Snakes appear to be so bilaterally asymetrical in certain aspects like lung development, organ placement, etc. to compensate for their tubular shape, it makes me wonder about this issue a bit. I was always under the impression the dual hemipenes were for backup purposes if one was accidentally damaged or torn off during copulation activities. If you are getting busy and a hawk flies up and the girlfriend decides to vamose quickly, OUCH!!!

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'm going to adjust my approach a little and see what kinds of cues I get from the snakes.
An update on this particular pairing: they seem indifferent to each other right now so I've separated them for feeding/rest.
I do always watch when I first introduce a pair to make sure no one is stressed or aggressive.
BTW, Terry, I believe these particular Hondurans are descended from your stock.
-----
---
http://www.mikefoux.com
http://snakerack.blogspot.com

1.2.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
1.1.0 Brooksi Hypo
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
1.2.1 Leopard Geckos, various morphs
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana

Mfoux, I also agree with Terry's advice to just separate and try again at a later date if the female is obviously fleeing from the male. Most of my corn females are receptive after the first post-brumation shed, but some are not. Same when I bred greybanded kings. No need to stress them unnecessarily and if they arent agreeable within a short period of time, likely not going to happen.

I didnt mean to imply it would NEVER happen, just not at that specific introduction!! Some females may not be recessive til their second or third shed post-brumation, or will be receptive after the first post-brumation shed, just not that soon after.