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I picked this up at a show the other day. As far as we know it's the first of it's kind. Any idea's what's causing the Split Duo color (blue head, red body, Blue tail)?

Not an expert but,it looks like a motley bloodred to me! Jeff

I agree with Jeff, although I haven't seen many, I'd call that a Bloodred Motley.

Tim

Third Eye

ya are right. it is obviously motley. it does have bloodred/diffused in it but there is two more genes present here.

I see the motley blood red too, and further venture to say its a striped motley (that would give three genes expressed if I am correct). Are the other genetics being phenotypically expressed, or are they just present in a het. situation?

the stripe isn't one of the genes I was talking about but what a concept if it happens to be. the other two genes are shown but subtle. they are what's expressing the bright blue tail and head. I apologise if the blue is difficult to see my photography skills are less than desirable. I got the snake from Jeff clayton in Birmingham Al.

I certainly attributed the blueish head coloration to the blood gene. I would say maybe lavender in there, but that doesnt explain the red coloration I am seeing which would negate that expression IMO. My lavender blood baby is a very pale greyish pink, and his pattern is very faint compared to yours. So, that has me stumped LOL!!

The reason I said striped mot is due to similarities in pattern I observed on babies I produced last season that were from a butter striped to an amel motley. The babies expressing the motley pattern exhibited elongated areas in the motley pattern like yours and I could claim mine as motley stripes.

>>the stripe isn't one of the genes I was talking about but what a concept if it happens to be. the other two genes are shown but subtle. they are what's expressing the bright blue tail and head. I apologise if the blue is difficult to see my photography skills are less than desirable. I got the snake from Jeff clayton in Birmingham Al.
>>

I don't know what you are talking about, it being the first of it's kind??? It's a bloodred motley. Nothing special nothing unique.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

>>
>>
>>I don't know what you are talking about, it being the first of it's kind??? It's a bloodred motley. Nothing special nothing unique.
>>-----

to continue...why don't you ask the breeder what it is.
Grey heads are pretty common with bloodreds and a lot of motleys and other morphs have color differences down the body.
I just don't see anything about this snake that would even hint towards a new morph.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I have asked the breeder, He knows what it is as do I. I figured I'd just have some fun and see if someone here can see the "SUBTLE" additional gene. Like I said my camera may not have picked up the difference. I never said it was a "new morph" it's a compilation of morphs that's already been established. What we think is it may be the first of this "exact" mixture of genes. I have already admitted it does have the Bloodred/Diffused gene and the motley. Let everyone have their fun and see if someone catches it.

>>I have asked the breeder, He knows what it is as do I. I figured I'd just have some fun and see if someone here can see the "SUBTLE" additional gene. Like I said my camera may not have picked up the difference. I never said it was a "new morph" it's a compilation of morphs that's already been established. What we think is it may be the first of this "exact" mixture of genes. I have already admitted it does have the Bloodred/Diffused gene and the motley. Let everyone have their fun and see if someone catches it.

if it is the first to be homo for this/these "exact mixture of genes" that would make it a new morph.
now if it is a blood motley het for whatever that would make it exactly that, a blood motley het for whatever.
the picture quality tells us nothing.
There are so many possibilities we could GUESS all day long.
oh well whatever
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

OK, here is an issue I have with a some of the new corn morphs i see out there. If an ABC morph basically looks like an XYZ morph, whats the point? Yeah, I understand its a new combo, never been done, yada yada yada. Me and others have looked at the photo of your corn, and have come up with motley bloodred. Now, its not that based on your responses, and is supposedly a homozygous expression of four recessive traits. Point being, you cant really see it (ok, to be fair, at least not from your pic). I quess if I saw your morph in real life and still felt it looked like a motley blood corn, and it matures and looks like a motley blood corn, why bother introducing the other "subtle" genes in the mix that obviously dont add much to the look? Just to say those genes are there? Am I missing something? Any one remember keeping corns like the one below? LOL!!

I have bred and produced plenty of bloodreds. I have a friend that breeds and produces Motley bloodreds. I have not seen one with as dark a blue or the blue colors appear to wrap about the belly of this snake. All the blues I've seen on the tail of the blood reds are very pale compared to this one and fades toward the belly. Additionally the red colors appear to be paled or slightly lightened. I can see the differences in this animal and other bloodred motleys I've seen. We all know the cornsnakes colors change as they age. Whatever gene is introduced to this snake as similar as it may look to a bloodred motley as a baby is quite possibly to look extremely different than an adult bloodred motley when it ages.

>>I have bred and produced plenty of bloodreds. I have a friend that breeds and produces Motley bloodreds. I have not seen one with as dark a blue or the blue colors appear to wrap about the belly of this snake. All the blues I've seen on the tail of the blood reds are very pale compared to this one and fades toward the belly. Additionally the red colors appear to be paled or slightly lightened. I can see the differences in this animal and other bloodred motleys I've seen. We all know the cornsnakes colors change as they age. Whatever gene is introduced to this snake as similar as it may look to a bloodred motley as a baby is quite possibly to look extremely different than an adult bloodred motley when it ages.

Must be my computer because with THAT photo it doesn't look special at all.
but whatever
WHAT ARE THE SUPPOSED GENES
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

the question....what is this?
answered.... bloodred motley
correct..BUT.. there is more...
AND...with the "more" this may be a first.
so what is the "more"?
Guess...
Now how are we supposed to guess that? There are too many possibilities to guess. We could guess for a month.
So, why not tell us what genes are involved?
If it is a new "combo" it would be much more interesting then a blurry photo and a "guess what"

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I agree with ya' Jimmy!
Jeff

My guess is Motley Bloodred 100% het for Normal??

~ Mike Russo

I was just reminded why I avoid the kingsnake forums. Because of the inconsiderate comments made in here. I suggest this person post this picture on another forum where there or more considerate and rational people. I have seen plenty of hatchling Bloodreds. Response's like this one can only be made from someone that has seen very few Bloodreds. I believe I will be seeing my way out of this forum now. I believe this can probably be attributed to the fact the inconsiderate posts have been all men. Maybe it's just a macho man ego thing. You all take care.....

I must agree. I remember this forum being very welcoming and a great place to visit 5 years ago when I first got into corns. Since I started getting on again in the last few months, I've encountered a surprising number of disturbing threads, with a lot of harassment and passive-aggressive or outright aggressive posts. Very disappointing.

The posts were made viewing a less than stellar photo and people were being HONEST about what they saw. I agree it can be a tough crowd at times. If you really want to see blood and hair fly, visit the king and milk forums LOL!!!!! Several people posted their opinions and were told they were wrong, with no answer as to what was right. However, based on the bad photo, they were right in their own opinion. The truth is in the pudding as they say, and we were waiting for the PUDDING!!! Further down, the OP gives the genetic makeup, and THAT definitely leads to interesting replys and questions.

>>I must agree. I remember this forum being very welcoming and a great place to visit 5 years ago when I first got into corns. Since I started getting on again in the last few months, I've encountered a surprising number of disturbing threads, with a lot of harassment and passive-aggressive or outright aggressive posts. Very disappointing.

here?
for real?
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

>>>>I must agree. I remember this forum being very welcoming and a great place to visit 5 years ago when I first got into corns. Since I started getting on again in the last few months, I've encountered a surprising number of disturbing threads, with a lot of harassment and passive-aggressive or outright aggressive posts. Very disappointing.
>>
>>
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>>here?
>>for real?
>>-----
>>

I had to go all the way back to early November to find a post that could fall under the catagories of disturbing or passive aggressive or outright aggresive and to be honest most of them were warranted. A poster came on and made bold and uninformed statements about the survival rates of slightly kinked specimens. It got heated but she was assured with well over 50 years of combined breeding experience that her "one snake" experience and conclusion were wrong but simply wouldn't listen. Yeah it got pretty rough but since then I can't really find anything that would be confrontational or rude.
anytime someone comes on and asks for opinions they need to be ready to get just that... opinions.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I shouldn't have said anything. It's not my place to judge other peoples' actions.

The thread you are referring to is definitely the worst case I've encountered. I must have restarted following the forum a while longer ago than it feels like. There have been a few replies to posts since then that I found passive-aggressive, but never amounted to much. However, taken together they have led to the feeling of slight overtones of hostility in the forum. To me at least.

I should note that I was not referring to the same post as the person who commented before me, but to a couple posts before that. I understand that some found the exercise pointless, but I thought it was meant to be fun and felt some people were getting a little too worked up about it. Just trying to explain my side.

I apologize for commenting.

>>I was just reminded why I avoid the kingsnake forums. Because of the inconsiderate comments made in here. I suggest this person post this picture on another forum where there or more considerate and rational people. I have seen plenty of hatchling Bloodreds. Response's like this one can only be made from someone that has seen very few Bloodreds. I believe I will be seeing my way out of this forum now. I believe this can probably be attributed to the fact the inconsiderate posts have been all men. Maybe it's just a macho man ego thing. You all take care.....

point out these iconsiderate and irrational posts.
an opinion was asked... with a bad picture and absolutely no back graound to go with it.... we gave our opinions. We didn't attack the poster, we didn't call names, we gave opinons on what we thought the snake was or wasn't. if you find giving our opinons and the reasons behind these opinions to be inconsiderate or irrational then maybe you would do better at a site like rich's old site...never any inconsiderate, irrational or confrontational posts there, now are there? LOL
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I was refering to the comment guessing it was het for normal. That post had no useful information only an inadvertant insult. The guy later said he was kidding. That's good and all. But without pointing out that it's a lighthearted joke at the time than it could be percieved as a hurful comment after everyone else already was saying they couldn't see the difference. I personally was able to see a difference in the picture than a normal bloodred motley. I have never seen one with such a solid colored tail. I can't attribute that to any of the genes mentioned later but I did notice a subtle difference. I also mentioned a "softening" Or "lighting" of the colors. I can't believe I didn't guess dilute because I did see that in the picture. I just explained it rather than took a guess.

Het for normal is an obvious joke to a lot of people that have been in the hobby for a while.. Might havebeen worse if some one said het for king snake or something.. *shrugs*

I think we really need to come up with a definant Funny Sarcasim Icon.. *LOL*

Regards... Tim of T and J

Many of us don't like playing the whole game about genetics,so many of us have been breeding snakes 4 ALOT of years and we try to help each other, not play games with each other.......Myself and others have worked hard to get SOME of the genetics that we have been lucky enough to get that 1/1024 odds.......Anyone can say that a snake is this or that, the only way to be sure is through breeding trials,which takes some time.......Many of us are still working hard on proving out SOME genetics and still haven't gotten any where in 5-8 yrs....I have had snakes that were though to be genetically one thing and after breeding trails find out that they may have had the "look" that they were not at all....Looks are one thing,ACTUAL genetics are a totally diffrent......Look at normal hets. ya never know what might be there genetically.....

Easy now fellas.. i was joking!

~ Mike Russo

The "blue" you are talking about doesn't look any different from the normal coloration I've seen in many baby bloodreds. If your photo does not accurately represent the colors of your snake, it's kind of hard to guess what morph it is.

Tim

Any idea's what's causing the Split Duo color (blue head, red body, Blue tail)?

I would say that it is just the way that corns develop their background color. The color first shows on the upper third of the body and as the snake ages it kinda spreads out from there.

I have seen alot of Bloodred hatchlings. Even seen a lot of Bloodred Motleys. I do see there is a difference from what ones I've seen. I see the deeper blue color than what's normal. The blue wraps around the belly which is not common in the normal Bloodreds. I also can tell there is a "pastel" or "softening" affect on the colors. It's a beautiful snake. When it gets established I'd like to get some. If you have the guys contact info you got it from please email it to me cornsnakeluvr17@yahoo.com. I'm anxious to see what this gene is causing these differences.

Its its natural color

I kind of think this thread was a little blown out of perportion. Several of my friends suggested I post this picture to see if someone could pick out the "subtle" differences that are quite apparent in real life. I wasn't trying to "play it up" as quite a few I believe thought. I had talked with Jeff who produced this snake and was waiting for him to get on here to explain the exact details of the breedings to prove out whatever genes were in this snake. A couple did say they noticed a "lightening" or "fading" of the colors so I have to say the efforts weren't in total vain. The one proven additional gene is Dilute. The one the breeder believes is visual but not proven as of yet is Anery A. I was hoping he could get the chance to get on here to explain his breedings and the parents to produce this animal before I had to tell you all. I do know without a doubt that it is at the very least het for amel and anery a. That can't be seen but the Dilute was what I was hoping someone could guess. I didn't mean to get such a fuss started. Like I said I posted the "guess what?" thread from a suggestion from some friends. I will get some photographer friends of mine to get some better pictures I can post sometime soon to show. I will also post some pictures when this thing ages to see how different it turns out to a normal bloodred motley. Thank you all for your replies and your patience.

>>I kind of think this thread was a little blown out of perportion. Several of my friends suggested I post this picture to see if someone could pick out the "subtle" differences that are quite apparent in real life. I wasn't trying to "play it up" as quite a few I believe thought. I had talked with Jeff who produced this snake and was waiting for him to get on here to explain the exact details of the breedings to prove out whatever genes were in this snake. A couple did say they noticed a "lightening" or "fading" of the colors so I have to say the efforts weren't in total vain. The one proven additional gene is Dilute. The one the breeder believes is visual but not proven as of yet is Anery A. I was hoping he could get the chance to get on here to explain his breedings and the parents to produce this animal before I had to tell you all. I do know without a doubt that it is at the very least het for amel and anery a. That can't be seen but the Dilute was what I was hoping someone could guess. I didn't mean to get such a fuss started. Like I said I posted the "guess what?" thread from a suggestion from some friends. I will get some photographer friends of mine to get some better pictures I can post sometime soon to show. I will also post some pictures when this thing ages to see how different it turns out to a normal bloodred motley. Thank you all for your replies and your patience.

I don't see the anery...too much normal color...but...lets say it is....that would be an anery/blood (granite), motley is obvious, so a granite motley
add difuse... a difuse granite motley....
now that's much more interesting then "guess what"
it wasn't really a fuss... but .....why guess? blurry photo..you see blue...I don't... too many possibilities
the lightening or fading looks pretty typical of a lot of motleys, that's why I posted the pic of the normal motley.
too me it still looks like a motley blood but if it is a difuse anery blood motley that just makes for a hell of a lot better post.
so, now we need some background and better pics if possible
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I definately will try to get some better pictures soon. Like I mentioned earlier I spoke with Jeff yesterday and he said he'll come on here and post the exact details. He without a doubt knows more about the history of this project than I do. I hope he is able to clear up any questions anyone may have. Thank you for all your responses

>>>>I kind of think this thread was a little blown out of perportion. Several of my friends suggested I post this picture to see if someone could pick out the "subtle" differences that are quite apparent in real life. I wasn't trying to "play it up" as quite a few I believe thought. I had talked with Jeff who produced this snake and was waiting for him to get on here to explain the exact details of the breedings to prove out whatever genes were in this snake. A couple did say they noticed a "lightening" or "fading" of the colors so I have to say the efforts weren't in total vain. The one proven additional gene is Dilute. The one the breeder believes is visual but not proven as of yet is Anery A. I was hoping he could get the chance to get on here to explain his breedings and the parents to produce this animal before I had to tell you all. I do know without a doubt that it is at the very least het for amel and anery a. That can't be seen but the Dilute was what I was hoping someone could guess. I didn't mean to get such a fuss started. Like I said I posted the "guess what?" thread from a suggestion from some friends. I will get some photographer friends of mine to get some better pictures I can post sometime soon to show. I will also post some pictures when this thing ages to see how different it turns out to a normal bloodred motley. Thank you all for your replies and your patience.
>>
>>
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>>I don't see the anery...too much normal color...but...lets say it is....that would be an anery/blood (granite), motley is obvious, so a granite motley
>>add dilute... a dilute granite motley....
>>now that's much more interesting then "guess what"
>>it wasn't really a fuss... but .....why guess? blurry photo..you see blue...I don't... too many possibilities
>>the lightening or fading looks pretty typical of a lot of motleys, that's why I posted the pic of the normal motley.
>>too me it still looks like a motley blood but if it is a dilute anery blood motley that just makes for a hell of a lot better post.
>>so, now we need some background and better pics if possible
>>-----

I accidentaly typed difuse instead of dilute.
as far as I know Walter has done dilute anery motley
not 100% sure about dilute anery/blood motley but I think he has done that too. in all of this I still see way to much natural color in the upper body to be anery.
as far as dilute, well better photos and deeper history would help
>>
>>_____
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I can agree with the comment about seeming to have too much upper body color to be anery. I really don't know exactly why Jeff (who I bought it from) feels the possibility of it being anery as well. I hope he comes on and explains the history and such soon. I do know that surely it is at the very least het for anery because I got a sister to breed it with that is Anery. If Jeff don't come on and explain the history I'll ask him next time I talk to him for the details and I'll bring them back to you all. Thank you very much for your interest to continue discussing this with me. I'm pretty excited to have this project I got this male we are discussing who is suppose to be het for amel as well. I have three siblings to breed him to one is just normal het. One is a dilute normal. The other is an Anery.... I'm not at home I may have missed something without checking them. One of them may be motely or something I can't remember off the top of my head. But none the less I have hopes for christmas come hatching day when I breed him to these three sisters.

Alright!! Now I can take a breath LOL!! Seriously, I couldnt wait for you to post the answer!! Well, I kind of agree with Jimmy in the fact there is a LOT of red in the first half of the snake to jump up and say Anery of any sort. So, after you posted the answer, I looked at the pic again. If you only showed the last half of the snake, I would probably say some type of anery, or non-red thing going on. Now looking at the snake, does your friend suspect some type of paradox-like coloration going on?

He is attributing it to the dilute and/or anery. Like I mentioned the anery is questionable but I did get three sister siblings from him. I got a normal het for the (bloodred,anery,amel,dilute,motley), a dilute normal het for (xxxxx). And an anery het for (xxxx) So breeding the anery sister to him will definately prove or disprove the anery in him. A paradox'ing affect would be a phenominal concept but the odds of that aren't in my favor. But if that was to happen I can promise its picture will undoubtly be back for you all to see.

I don;t see this paradox bit in the pictures you posted... Now, it is possible to get dilute motley blood without the anery gene being tossed in..

TBH, I don't see what people call Blue with dilutes, and I hatched a few, and first hand seen adult dilute anery mots in my hands..

I believe it was Walter or Rob S that posted a pic of dilute granite motley a while back ( not here )...

>>I don;t see this paradox bit in the pictures you posted... Now, it is possible to get dilute motley blood without the anery gene being tossed in..
>>
>>TBH, I don't see what people call Blue with dilutes, and I hatched a few, and first hand seen adult dilute anery mots in my hands..
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>>
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>>I believe it was Walter or Rob S that posted a pic of dilute granite motley a while back ( not here )...
>>

I know Walter was posting dilute anery motleys in '06 but not 100% sure if he added bloodred. Probably by now...not sure.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Who is walter? Maybe if he was to look at it he'd be able to tell since he's more likely to have seen them already then the rest of us?

>>Who is walter? Maybe if he was to look at it he'd be able to tell since he's more likely to have seen them already then the rest of us?

Walter Smith
he has been breeding for quite a while now.
He is now living in Alabama and usually does shows in Birmingham.
He may know even know jeff.
I will see if I can find his e-mail addy and drop him a line
a couple of alabam boys I got from Walter

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I have been going to the Dixie show regularly for several years. I would have to know him, as Jeff has to know him. I don't recognize his name but I must know him. The Birmingham area breeders are a fairly tight knitt bunch. I woudn't be the least afraid to say that Walter is most likely had a hand in this project. I will definately look him up and I'll have him take a look at this snake in person at one of the Dixie shows. Thanks I'll let you know what he says after I see him.

hooked me up with my first butter corns about seven years ago when he was in the New Orleans area pre-Hurricane Katrina. I know Walter did quite a few projects with the caramel/butter and blood genetics, some posted in the classifieds not too terribly long ago. I live in Louisiana, and am considering the Dixie shows this summer pending on local show availability. How have the shows been? Regardless, if you see Walter, say hi. He is a good guy and usually has some nice animals.

The dixie shows have had a good number of people coming to them but the vendors haven't had alot of luck with high end sales low end sales have always done well. The last show at the Hill center UAB was Jan. Then they moved to the Zamora Temple in Feb. They skipped the Mar. show and the next show will be April. I can't remember the exact date but it's listed. The first show at the Zamora Temple went extremely well for a new location. I sometimes go to the New Orleans show. I may have met you as well. I don't do names well at all but faces I remember. I'll keep my eye open for you. Hope you decide to come to The Dixie show. Love seeing new faces and animals.

No joke, a Petsmart in my area has one. I couldn't figure it out, but then looked at websites and concluded bloodred motley. Bluish head scales (under the cage's light anyway) and all. This thread confirms it for me. The folks here know their corns. If there is something more going on with the cornsnake pictured, then I and apparently others here cannot tell what it is.

The snake looks like a blood corn, and it has a motley pattern. From the pic those are the only two statements I can make. Oh, and that Petsmart has one for $59.
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Mark

I realize everyone says it looks to them like a normal motley blood red. I have browsed the internet and not found one. piedsideluvr has mentioned they have not seen one like this. I can't find a picture of one anywhere and I personally have seen a lot of them myself at the shows and never seen one with as dark a blue tail and not one as faded due to the dilute. I realize my pictures aren't the best to go from but even from the pictures I posted I still can't find one that has as dark a tail on the internet.