Reptile & Amphibian Forums

is anyone working with this locale

Seems like there a few people that breed them, though I couldn't give you any names.

They are basically the same thing as Kankakee Bulls. They are the same population occurring in the Indiana/Illinois border area. The region is sometimes referred to as the Kankakee Sand Prairie. I know of Indiana bulls being sold as "Kankakee Bulls".

I typically find about 20 per year in Indiana. I used to keep a few, but never bred them.

Holy moly!!! That might be my favorite pit ever! How many of 'em look like that?

Most.

is'nt there a population of bulls in southern indiana?

Only on the range maps. No one I have ever talked to in Indiana has been able to find one at that location despite many searches. From what I understand the southern dot on the range map is based on an historical record that may not be valid.

Phil

The records were considered valid, but the last one was from the 40s. The specimens were collected near Wheatland in Knox County. Seems like that population is considered to be extirpated. There are records of other sand prairie species, like Slender Glass Lizards, Ornate Box Turtles, and Racerunners also in that general area, so the Bull Snake records don't seem that far fetched.

I've thought about hunting that area, but haven't made it down that way yet. I haven't talked to any Indiana herpers who have herped down there, but then again, I haven't talked to many Indiana herpers.

I'm no expert at all on the herpetology of Indiana, but from what I can gather the record was based on one specimen which was as you mentioned labeled as Knox county in the 1940s. Like a number of the older records from Indiana the collection points were sometimes shades of gray since the actual point of collection was not actually recorded as found but rather based on a large series of specimens invested at once being dubbed as originating from a particular locale whether they were or not with the result of animals found many counties distant assigned to a particular place. The herpers that I know that have searched for them are what would be considered old timers for the most part and none of these folks had any luck.

The dot on the range map is very similar to the dubious melanoleucus record in southwest Tenn near Memphis.

Phil

Interesting. I know there were at least two specimens said to be from that locale, and it seems the Minton field guide for Indiana considers them valid. Of course, there were old records for Corn Snakes, Coral Snakes, Southern and Western Hognose from Indiana, all of which are considered to be incorrectly labeled museum specimens.

This article (you may have seen it already) on questionable Kentucky reptiles is interesting. It briefly mentions the SW Indiana bull snakes, but also mentions bull snakes being collected in Tennessee along the Tennessee River?!

http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/229.pdf

This is an interesting subject foxturtle. I have always been intrigued by the small dot on the range map in southwestern Indiana and even thought about investigating it myself. Whenever I spoke with some of the herpers that were closer to the situation though the consensus seemed to be not a one of them felt it was legitimate. Of course this is all speculation. My thoughts on the topic are more a reflection of the opinions of these folks rather than anything else. As you mentioned the habitat certainly appears to be capable of supporting a population of bullsnakes but exhaustive searches at this locale have failed to produce additional specimens in spite of this. If these snakes did occur there the logical question would seem to be why are they no longer extant? If the habitat had been destroyed or severely altered this would offer a reasonable explanation but many of these intensive searches occured 20- 30 years ago and from what I was told the habitat was intact.

That was an interesting link that you provided. I have read that but it has been some years back. Since then it has been concluded that the eastern coachwhips in KY were the result of released specimens from the old Reptile Gardens near Mammoth Cave National Park and that this species is not native to our state. On the other hand the western pigmy rattlesnake has been confirmed as native.

The Tennessee Valley pine snakes are interesting as well. Some authors labled them as bullsnakes and others even as southern pines from the Natchez Trace area in Tenn. They are decidedly different than the typical northern pine in coloration but we suspect that this represents clinal variation as much as anything. We sent off a shed skin from a specimen from south central KY and it should be interesting to see how the DNA compares to some of the other melanoleucus populations from other regions.

Phil

Not wanting to get too far off the original topic but I find this interesting.

Some of the earlier descriptions of Pituophis in KY and TENN were labled as bullsnakes. The locals still refer to them as such. Its easy to see how some of these early field workers were thrown off a bit by what they were looking at since these snakes are far different in appearance than the typical Jersey pines that they were no doubt familiar with. KY specimens tend to have a fairly heavily patterned belly much like the bullsnake and tend to be yellowish in coloration. The above photo is one of our CB animals as seen through the bottom of its hide. She is preparing to shed but the dark patterning is still very evident. It should be mentioned that not all KY specimens necessarily have this characteristic but it is a tendency.


A couple of the above snakes siblings that demonstrate the yellowish tone. This characteristic tends to increase as the snakes age.

Phil

Phil, always a joy to see pictures of those pines. What's the personalities of the neonates been? I remember reading from you that the breeder female, or it may have been the male, does not bluff. She/he will take your hand off. I was curious if that personality trait had carried over on a few of the young ones or not. Thanks. Steve

Hi Steve,

All the hatchlings definitely take after their mother in that regard. These snakes are all highly defensive and do not hesitate to strike repeatedly while all the time hissing and arching their bodies. Should be real fun when they are 6' or so lol! I do wish that at least one would take after the father who is relatively laid back and mellow.

Phil

Those are some nice looking pines! To me, they still look like straight Northern Pines. The checkering on the belly is interesting. Similarly, pines from the prairie region of South Central Florida have checkered bellies, where as the pines from the rest of the state are plain bellied.

A lot of people in Florida and Georgia will call their local Pituophis "Bull Snakes". Well, the ones that don't call them "rattlesnakes" anyway. I've also heard "Gopher Snakes" for Florida pines. In NC it seems the locals know to call them "Pine Snakes".

Thanks! I agree that they are northern pine snakes. I suspect the DNA will confirm this and I doubt that these populations have been separated long enough for speciation to occur.

Phil

On Google Earth, that area, like a lot of Indiana, looks to be 95% corn fields. Of course, there are still bull snakes in solid corn field areas in NW Indiana. There are no pocket gophers in SW Indiana (there are tons in NW Indiana), and this may have some impact on the viability of that population. The population of bull snakes in that area may not have been very strong, even before man intervened. The fact that eastern bull snakes occur in disjunct pockets indicates that their populations have been receding for some time.

I'm planning a trip to the SW corner of Indiana once the weather gets warm enough for flipping. I may stop through the Wheatland area on my way, just for curiosity's sake.

No pocket gophers in KY either. From what I can gather there does seem to be a connection between this food source and strong Pit populations.

Something else interesting about Wheatland. If I remember correctly that is where the type specimen was collected for the black kingsnake.

Good luck on your trip!

Phil

Unlike the bull snakes, finding a type-locality Black Kingsnake is probably a safe goal!

Just in case you didn't know, this is Nick Mesa (Nick on FHF). We've met under some funny circumstances...

I thought it was you Nick. That first meeting was funny circumstances for sure! I'm glad we had a chance to chat afterwards in Daytona last year.

Phil

I find a few per year with solid black blotches like that. Strangely that look seems to be a lot more common on the Indiana side of the state line.

Still, it seems to me that most look more like this:

I've seen the more darker Bulls on the Indiana side as well. Most look similar to the second photo you posted, and I've seen a number of red phase on the Illinois side. Quite a bit of variation in such a small area, that's what makes this genus so special.

Bart