Wow. This is ridiculous. The point I was trying to make was that I think after all these years. If snakes where so intelligent and social. That snake lovers would have noticed it just as dog and bird lovers have. You take everything as a personal attack.
Not that they don't love them. Just that we love them for what they are and leave it at that.
QUOTE"What strikes me odd is that I am able to defend my assertions with much more logic, reason and specific examples than many of my critics. (I even have the Flickr photos to prove my claims!) My Tex Rat & I strolled around last night for many minutes while he enjoyed riding on my shoulders."
I don't see more logic or reason in your specific examples. What do the flickr photos prove? They seem pretty normal to me. Did you forget that many of us, including myself did mention that we have "tame" tx rats too?? How do you know he enjoyed riding around on your shoulders? How do you know he didn't just find you warm and non threatening? Or that he might have been scared and holding on to the moving tree branch? How do you REALLY know?
QUOTE"Every creature demonstrates silly or questionable behavior at times. Such behavior is not the sum total of species intelligence nor capability. And there are usually exceptions to the rule..."
I agree.
QUOTE:"Other factors are highly important in this discussion, but are usually overlooked:
Most persons keep their animals in small quarters, rarely handle them and feed them frozen-thawed food and tap water with sodium fluoride and sodium chlorine. (How would you feel living in a closet, being fed only burgers & fries?) Many breeders breed fathers with daughters, and mothers with sons, to get special color combinations, but do they consider any worth for the animals beyond the salable commodity?"
Not everyone does. And some would argue that smaller more secure housing keeps snakes happier.
My snakes are given filtered water that I drink. And I have over 80! And if someone chooses to feed frozen. How the heck is that somehow comparable to burgers and fries?? It's still a mouse or rat. And if you take the time to move it around with tongs I think all of my snakes believe it's alive and hunt accordingly. And how does line breeding affect the temperament of a wild caught snake. Really?
QUOTE:"I keep my snakes in natural biomes which mimic their native habitats; I feed live food raised in safe, nutritious conditions; I provide purified water for soak dishes; I handle often and give a chance to explore the world and interact with humans. As a result, I get ASTONISHING results which sometimes generate caustic comments from the *Conform Or Be Cast Out* crowd. The dealer who packed my snake was bitten by him twice putting him in the bag. I've had the snake for over 14 days and have never been bitten! Different values & techniques get different results. Catch on & catch up, folks!!"
Good for you. So do a LOT of other people. I don't see any ASTONISHING results from you. I see someone who has taken the time to work with a probably already not too aggressive snake. (The guy who sold him to you probably handled him extremely rough). That provides a pretty normal cage setup and food and good water.
Catch on and catch up?? Really?? So you really are that above everyone on here?? I have plenty of happy, healthy tame snakes. I keep a large amount of garters and ribbons. Known for musking and biting. That don't musk or bite me. GASP. I must be a miracle worker.
QUOTE: "Below is a story about a Garter snake that taught me insight about animal interaction with humans. Ignore the evidence, criticize it, or learn from it. Your choice."
I don't see any evidence. I am not ignoring it. It sounds like very normal instinctive behavior...
QUOTE: "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Saga of the Full Moon Snake
October 25, 2007
Thursday full moon night @ 19:45
Alone in my apartment, with the light from the bathroom partially illuminating my room, I heard a sound coming from the vivarium. I glanced over and could see trace outlines, due to faint light coming from behind the window blinds. I saw Jackpot climbing a branch, still active even though the light had been out in my room for several minutes.
It's been just over a month now since I collected him in the wild and set up a natural Oregon Oaks Bottom biome in my 60-gallon vivarium. It contains many types of lichens, some maintained since 1993; at least 2-3 species of moss; wheat grass; purified water; several volcanic & other rocks collected in Oregon; six major hiding spots & three major climbing branches. It is a superlative replica of his natural environment. (I should be so lucky.)"
I know a lot of people who keep in these conditions. Not just you.
QUOTE: "
Jackpot is a Red-spotted Garter; a subspecies of the most common reptile in North America; found only in a portion of western Oregon & Washington. He was collected from a site near my county where they are very abundant. During the collection hike, we saw at least 8-10 other snakes of his species along the path. They all had the same nine, brilliant colors, including orange bars & salmon cheeks.
He shares his "room" with a cousin Northwestern Garter collected from my own county. They are very compatible, don't quarrel at all, and often cuddle or sleep together on a branch curled around each other. I am observing them as a Naturalist & Scientist, as well as interacting with them for my own selfish pleasure."
I have some oregon red spotted garters. They are cool snakes. Since when do snakes "quarrel"??? They aren't dogs for crying out loud! You don't understand normal snake behavior. You don't understand how they behave in anyone's care then yourself. So how can you tell if the way yours behave is ANY different. I can GUARANTEE you that ANYONE could put two garters together and they wouldn't "quarrel".
If snakes are unhappy with each other they stress internally. You won't see signs. Garters tend to me very tolerable in groups. "Cuddling" together probably means they just liked the same spot, are courting each other. Or just happen to think it's comfortable. It's not an emotional response. Unless they where breeding if you separated them they wouldn't care.
QUOTE:"The diet of the Garter Guys is comprised of items from 1-3 species found naturally in their local environments. Food is relatively easily obtained & inexpensive. They do not constrict prey. They chase down prey, overwhelm it and swallow whole."
Go to thamnophis.com. You will find a huge majority of the large group of people there who keep garters (including myself. GASP) feed this kind of diet to their garters.
QUOTE:"Quick explanation, and I know that this will be rough to understand for some, so buckle your seat belts. Truth is often stranger than fiction."
WOW..... That is the most condescending thing I have heard anyone say here. Ever. What you state below after this statement is pretty much what WE ALL DO AND THINK!!! What in the world is rough to understand?? Why buckle my seat belt? Why is it strange??
QUOTE:"I don't have pets, and I don't keep them in cages. I have animal companions housed in natural biomes which meet their needs. In exchange, I offer clean water, freedom from predators & parasites, freedom from cold, year-long activity and the chance to interact with a being that is much larger, more intelligent and experienced than they are. (I should be so lucky.)
Official literature suggests that Garter snakes are daytime snakes; active when it's sunny. They are also allegedly ground snakes and seldom climb. Once in my home, freed from aerial predators, I quickly found that they prefer to sleep up high, on branches."
As I said. Unbelievably NORMAL.
QUOTE:"They also love to watch me (sometimes at non-preferred moments with company), and have spent well over an hour curled on a branch watching me thru the glass while I browse the Internet."
Sounds normal. They are interested in your movement and activity. If you have proved that you aren't a threat.
My garters can smell when I bring out the food. And they start cruising around the cage and will jump out to me to take it from my fingers. This is just what they have become comfortable with. What they feel is their version of hunting in this situation. They are not leaping for joy because Amanda is home.
QUOTE:"On this full moon night, I walked over to Jackpot and spoke to him thru the glass: "Are you still active and want to explore? If I let you out for a moment to exercise, will you quickly try to escape, or will you interact with me for even a moment?"
Jackpot doesn't have ears!!
QUOTE:"There was something about the moment; maybe it was the full moon light coming from the deck outside. I lifted the glass and practiced trust between two species in my mostly dim bedroom. He climbed right up onto my arm. I held him firmly from underneath only, in at least two points always, but did not grasp him.
First question answered."
Sounds pretty darn normal for a garter snake. A lot of mine do this. Probably wants food or is just into leaving the cage at the moment. And you have provided escape.
QUOTE:"I held him for a moment, then used the magic Marge Sway. He was quite relaxed, made no attempt to musk nor bolt, and was not seeking to escape from my arm. We took a brief tour of my apartment, his second, but first time done at night.
I walked and he rode on my arm, past the dim light of the microwave oven in the kitchen, past the couch and the closed blinds at the southern window, past the main doorway and back into my room."
Sound like a comfortable snake. My garters don't musk or bite me. I have several dozen of many different subspecies.
But I highly doubt he wanted to take a tour of your furniture.
QUOTE:"I went to put him back into his room, but he did not want to go back inside. He gently climbed back up my arm - as if he were a boy wanting to play longer.
I granted a moment of extra trust, and took him out again, holding him for a moment, gently caressing his side with one or two fingers. A moment later I returned him to his biome and placed him low enough that I had time to secure the cover with him enclosed.
Second question answered."
Sounds like normal behavior to me. Many of my snakes when you try to place them in their cage don't want to go back. You aren't the only one. And you certainly don't understand why they do what they do...
I don't know why you think you are the only person in the world who takes care of their snakes. I don't know why you think we are all so horrible. I think you are getting sarcastic responses from some because of the condescending attitude. Don't be ridiculous.
