Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I’m not sure where to begin but I’d like to clear a few things up. The first is: NO I do not believe we won at Ontario. The California Fish & Game did what they always do when confronted by more than a handful of people, they blinked. It was obvious from the start that they didn’t expect 25 plus speakers plus all the other supporters.
I personally found out about the meeting less than a week before. I had a well thought out prepared speech, as did most of the people there. The curve ball was the Fish & Game Commission cutting our time back to two minutes. As I stated at the meeting there is no way anyone can present a coherent presentation in two minutes.
Second I’d like to thank everyone who showed up whether you spoke or not. I know of at least one shop owner that I contacted on Sunday who made up flyers and closed his shop just to be there. Besides us old guys there were a number of industry people there: Gary Bagnall owner of Zoo Med, PIJAC, USARK and quite a few others plus all the shop owners and private people. Once it became clear that Fish & Game was going to blink most of the people there decided not to speak. This was a good choice, why give away anything to these people right then because it gives them an idea of where we are going, save it for another day. A quick note on the person who lost his temper with the Commission. I truly understand how you felt. I have been elected to public office a couple of time in my life and I have NEVER seen public officials (yes I know they are appointed not elected) as arrogant or treat the public with as much disrespect as some of the members of the Commission did that day. It was all I could do to keep from telling them off myself. I believe what the Commission did that day by pre-judging their decision and a number of their comments will help us in court when (not if) it time to sue them.
What everyone needs to understand, is that this is not the first battle nor will it be the last. I have been personally involved in this fight since the mid 70’s and I have learned a lot on how to win. When Texas was getting ready to close down I tried to tell everyone to stop trying to be a “nice guy” because they really do finish LAST. I was told by a number of people “Oh, we can work with them, they just don’t understand.” Well yes they do understand and we can’t say in public what they did to you. Getting old is not fun sometimes but over the years some of us did learn a thing or two. Maybe some of you younger people will start listening to us old guys.
If you really want to start opening your eyes, get a copy of one of the first reptile magazines. It was called: National Association for Sound Wildlife Programs. Vol. 1 No. 2 from 1976. Read page 27 “Think Before You Give.” It is a press release by 14 so called Animal Rights and Conservation organizations in 1974. Item number 6 of the 26 points they espouse calls for a ban on all non-domestic pets be they indigenous or imported. They told us what they were going to do to us and we did Nothing! Well now there is something we can do just to start things off. Look at the names of these organizations and if you or any of your friends belong to any of them, write a letter today telling them you want your money back and why. Cut off the cash and they die! If you keep any kind of pet other than a dog or cat, or you fish or hunt these people are your sworn enemies and will do anything to take away your rights. Look around people all this is a well-coordinated strike at the heart of the pet trade. I remember back when they went after small mammals and the bird and reptile people said, “ well it really doesn’t affect me” No it didn’t did it. Then they went after the bird people and the reptile people said, “well it really doesn’t affect me.” Well people we are next and there’s no bird people or small mammal people to help us. These people are not nice guys, they will stop at nothing to get their agenda passed and they won’t let the truth get in the way.
I can tell you from personal experience that politics is a dirty nasty business and if we are going to win we need to be bigger, meaner and nastier than our opponents. If they get a thousand people to send letters to a politician we need to get two thousand. You need to start sending contributions to your local elected officials not just to a big organizations, even if its only $25 it has your name on it and their staff will remember you when you need to talk to them. Always use facts that can be backed up. These other groups will lie about anything to win and that’s where we beat them. If your trying to show that they are using junk science as in the report on the python ban make sure of your facts before you open your mouth. We need some of you younger people to work with us to setup web sites to expose the people behind all of this. DAYLIGHT will drive them back into the sewer that they came from.
Bad PR is killing us; all of us need to think about what we are doing from now on. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been to someone’s house and they proudly show me their latest pet and they have it in a all glass tank with a screen on it with a brick holding it down and their newest pet is capable of killing half the town. I’ve known people who let their pet python that is 14 feet long have free run of the house even when they are sleeping! It’s time to start thinking about what we are doing other wise the government will take it all away.
Just a few of my thoughts and I’m tired of typing for today.
Michael Luhrs

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Mike, I want to commend you and also to officially admit you're an "OLD GUY" and a knowledgeable one at that. Keep on going just as we spoke on the phone a week or so ago. From one OLD guy to a another fight the good fight and CONGRATS....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Thanks Tom, I think it's time to kick some _ _ _ , I'll be sending a number of freedom of information requests to the wonderful California Department of Fish and Game. They obviously have way too much time on their hands. I had a very close friend who worked for the Department as a biologist for years and really hated how they ignored science to play politics. He kept me informed on the backroom deals they were involved in. I never let anyone know what I knew all these years but he’s been dead for over 10 years now. I know what questions to ask and I think it’s time to bring some people down. These people have opened a can of worms that they should have kept closed.
Michael Luhrs

I tried to tell everyone to stop trying to be a “nice guy” because they really do finish LAST. I was told by a number of people “Oh, we can work with them, they just don’t understand.” Well yes they do understand and we can’t say in public what they did to you.

Absolutely, for some reason people seem to think that "we" can make them understand,Convince the people that oppose the Exotic animal trade to change their views and who they support. Not with reason you cant.Just because you contact someone and they seem sympathetic to your plight does not mean they are.You cant stab someone in the back if they see it coming. Some people don't seem to understand this, call it trusting, gullible or whatever , its not smart. Ive been following the Animal Rights industry/movement for a long time and remember the 1974 deal, Louie Porrus put together a huge letter writing campaign that crushed the opposition. But things are tougher now, the AR groups have not been spinning their wheels for the last thirty years and the Internet has made the spread of propaganda so fast and simple. A little two paragraph article about some guys pet boa getting lose, the type of thing that gets printed on page 4 section D of a small town news paper, what used to be seen by a few hundred people now gets viewed by thousands, and sometimes makes front page headlines. This is the type of publicity that those who are against the exotic pet trade thrive on.

"can tell you from personal experience that politics is a dirty nasty business and if we are going to win we need to be bigger, meaner and nastier than our opponents. If they get a thousand people to send letters to a politician we need to get two thousand. You need to start sending contributions to your local elected officials not just to a big organizations, even if its only $25 it has your name on it and their staff will remember you when you need to talk to them."

I have to agree, but its tough. The exotic pet trade can be so disjointed, bootleg . There's not much of a structured industry to build on at times. As the most recent letter writing campaign showed, the reptile trade can show up in force but in the long hall, I think the whole exotic pet trade needs to show up for each other and needs to get the domesticated pet companies support, that is where the real money is and with the real money comes real power. Countering (Junk science) is much easier said then done when it comes to many biological issues. Unlike math where you can prove the other guys numbers don't add up, when your talking live animal issues .......if your against a group of "credible" and alike thinking scientist who have each others back, the best you can do is counter with your own group. This certainly helps but all the while the our scientist are better then yours stalemate goes on, the legislative wheels are turning.

People also have to research who they are supporting, the HSUS makes NO secrets about who they support and WHY. They send questioners out to the candidates, the ones that score the highest and have the strongest track record of supporting their views get the FULL support of the HSUS, nothing else the candidate stands for or believes in is considered, The support is based solely on the candidates view regarding Animal Rights.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying but we have resources also. The first thing is money. We need to pick a starting point. We need to flex our muscles and I think if we can get 10,000 people across this county to pull their membership from these groups, they will stand up and take notice. I think taking on the Animal Planet sponsors is another good starting point. This may be about Ideology but money is the answer. I also think setting up a web site to put a little sunshine on the players will go a long way. These people don't want their names and address's made public but it legal and proper to help them out of the dark.
Michael Luhrs

Honestly, I gotta say, a few years ago I'd a said you guys were all crazy. You have certainly opened my eyes to the truth and I just want to say THANK YOU! You have my support to do whatever I can. I'm a believer!
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Well said Michael! If that post wasnt' motivating for all of us, than there's a problem! And thank you again for speaking at the Commission meeting. Having you in our corner is of HUGE benefit to the reptile community.
We definitely need to change our tactics, because playing the defense hasn't been working for us. It's time to have a strategic plan of our own to go after them with. But, as someone said to me recently, Even if HSUS members go to jail tomorrow, which they very well could, you still have to win over public opinion, or another one will spring up. Lets not only fight these guys, but spread the awareness of what the real agenda of these groups really are.

If you have any ideas you need help on, let me know. I have a few brewing that I'm working on.
Tamjoseph5323@hotmail.com

Also, if you haven't gone on HumaneWatch.com, it's a great sight against the HSUS.

Tammy

Follow the money. One good way to reach the American Public is to demonstrate the linkage between the AR agenda and Government waste. The taxpayer may not care too much for snakes, but they care even less for Government waste, especially these days. Government tax dollar waste is something they will understand. How much have we spent on Guam? And how successful have we been? Connect the dots.

The Law of Unintended Consequences comes to mind, as well. Idealistic principled emotional feel good causes may be fine in theory, but what are the unintended consequences?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

"Bad PR is killing us; all of us need to think about what we are doing from now on. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been to someone’s house and they proudly show me their latest pet and they have it in a all glass tank with a screen on it with a brick holding it down and their newest pet is capable of killing half the town. I’ve known people who let their pet python that is 14 feet long have free run of the house even when they are sleeping! It’s time to start thinking about what we are doing other wise the government will take it all away.
Michael Luhrs "

Would that include actually questioning a potential buyer of an alligator or crocodile to see if they realize what they're gettting into when they buy that $75 baby? I've been to a reptile show where the buyer looked at me funny when I started recommending where to buy 300 gallon Rubbermaid stock tanks and which vendors had the best prices on heat lights, water filters, emmiters, and such - he had no idea what he was getting into - he just forked over his money and was handed an alligator. Water filters, heaters, heat lights? The money was the end of the conversation as far as the seller was concerned.

And who's selling hatchling RES to distributors who sell them to the public in tourist spots? Someone has to know that their "product" is going to T-shirt shops on the Strand in Myrtle Beach - and it doesn't make us look good when it happens. I'm not commenting on the 4" reg here, just where the animals are being sold, to whom, and by whom. Most of the sliders in rescue didn't come from pet stores or expos - the majority came from tourist traps. So who's selling the hatchling sliders to the tourist traps?

Katrina