Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been reading through some of the old posts and it seems like most of you use sand. I'm just wondering if anyone uses anything else and why. Any pro's and cons would be apreciated. I understand the impaction issues with babies and a lot of peoples views on that from past posts not looking to start that disscusion again just curious what people are using.
Thanks
Rick

A diggable soil is the best substrate. A blend or locally found with good water retention and packing ability.

Here are some reasons why:

1) Dragons live on soil in their natural habitat
2) Soil can hold moisture longer than other substrates
3) Soil can be worked ie..dug, burrowed, and nested
4) Soil is safe! Hard to ingest..and probably tastes terrible
5) Waste is easily removed with a paper towel

Lizards need to hide! Lizards need to dig! Lizards should never be kept bone dry! Bearded dragons come from areas with seasonal rainfall. A key to their survival is access to moisture. When they are kept on only sand, tiles, millet, and paper towels...you are virtually removing all of their options so care must be taken.

A good soil is ideal.

Impaction has more to do with insufficient temps and moisture levels than anything else. A well hydrated lizard with proper basking temps (120F ) can pass just about anything.

A good temperature and moisture gradient is key to a great setup.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Had a feeling you would stop bye to chat...you can never pass up a good substrate post : )

"Ideal" yes..that is better put.

Bad things about soil
1) moist dirt harbors bacteria
2) moist dirt has a fowl smell
3) moist dirt makes your dragon dirty
4) dirt and high temps. make a dusty environment
5) dirt hides feces and expelled liquids
6) dirt makes a very unattractive and unhealthy enclosure

120 degree basking sites have been discussed here many times before and just don't make sense. Adult dragons need a 105 degree basking site with a 90 degree warm side ambient.

Bad things about soil
1) moist dirt harbors bacteria (bioacitivty isn't all bad)
2) moist dirt has a fowl smell (Not really, soil has an earthy smell but is not foul.)
3) moist dirt makes your dragon dirty (Yeah, it's natural)
4) dirt and high temps. make a dusty environment (Your science is completely backwards. Dust is just a small particle..it has to be moved by an external force ie..wind.)
5) dirt hides feces and expelled liquids (Spot clean daily;dragon poop is easy to spot and smell.)
6) dirt makes a very unattractive and unhealthy enclosure (Uattractive to you, gorgeous to me. The unhealthy part is where you are most wrong.)

120 degree basking sites have been discussed here many times before and just don't make sense. Adult dragons need a 105 degree basking site with a 90 degree warm side ambient.

They just don't make sense to you. There are many dragon keepers that use 120/130 basking temps and soil substrates, and understand the logic behind them. Many moons ago on this forum TheVirus posted the best quote ever. I don't remember it word-word but it was something like, "If you cannot meet all of the dragon's needs within the enclosure, you can never be the king of dragons."

Here's my quote: "I've had a lotta dragons for a long time and all their needs are met to the T, plus I've tried these cockamamy ideas and they are conterproductive and unhealthy."

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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Robyn it continues to amaze me how you like to come off as an expert when you don't even keep Bearded Dragons.

I can practically see you gritting your teeth and shaking your fist at me!
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Nah. I really can't get worked up over you. I just have to make sure your bad advise doesn't cause unnecessary harm to any animals.

BDLVR your freaking awesome! she was arguing with me about having 120 degrees for my basking site lol its completely counter-productive and ive kept beardies for years too man right on!
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REAPER REPTILES

Or maybe I'm just not into women with goatees!

I am still interested if someone actually tested the two husbandry concepts objectively in a controlled environment -- using hatchlings from the same clutch and only changing basking temps, hide spots, and substrate types. It would be interesting how these two approaches impact growth rates and "thrive-ability." Sure, sample sizes would be statistically small, but it certainly would be more interesting than conjecture.

Any experienced keepers up for the challenge?

But he is right, I don't feel pretty : )

Contrary to what BDlvr would like to imply, I am not "making up" or speculating on husbandry. I am also far from alone.

120-130F basking surface temps are not new or unusual or outside the norm. They are temperature realities. The disconnect is from folks that don't understand the differences between air and surface temps, and natural basking temps. You can pull 120F surface temps on a 78F day here in Denver. You can pull 200 F surface temps on a hot day in Australia.

120F surface temp is not hot, and is well within a usable basking range for dozens of lizard species, including Beardeds.

Beardeds have been raised from egg to adult to egg with modern lizard husbandry any number of times with great success. There just aren't many on this particular forum that practice it.

There is in fact a "challenge" on deck, we discussed it a few months ago. Chris Allen was excited about it, perhaps some others, including myself. Raising brand new hatchlings for a year, and recording progress and results.

Funny thing, BDLvr immediately declined. Oh well.

LOL!
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

I only declined because I do rescue and rehabilitaion. Healthy dragons would displace animals in need. I already know the outcome anyway. Babies under my care grow and inch a week, at best you might be able to match that but I doubt it. Dragons are out in the cooler temps. of morning and evening in the wild, they hide when temps. are that hot. But you know this we've been through it a million times before. Why don't you mention how useless you feel UVB is for dragons to build your credibility further?

They don't bask at 200F, or in the hottest part of the day, but 120F isn't what is available in the heat of the day, but in the cooler parts of the day when they do bask. We have covered that time and again, but you don't listen, or want to hear. LOL!

And yes, Vit D absorption has more to do with temps than it does with fancy expensive bulbs. We raise animals with no full spectrum lighting, and have for years, through generations. We feed whole foods (an excellent source of Vit D and a fully balanced nutritious meal) and we use a D supplement on feeder insects. With proper basking spots and hydration, they can metabolize all of the nutrients, including the Vit D in their diets.

You don't get ANY of that. Believe me, I UNDERSTAND that. I don't post for you, at all, I post to bring modern lizard husbandry to the board, to offset the narrow sighted, misplaced, misunderstood husbandry of the 1980's that the Bearded "Manuals" still trumpet ignorantly.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

The funny part is you just pop in every couple of months and work in "oh you need a 130 degree basking spot" never any other advise? Oh that's right you don't keep bearded dragons. You keep monitors and a reptiles a reptile isn't it?

Actually I check in every day. Proper temps are the basis of a good setup, and the most often overlooked, and misunderstood, aspect. What folks want to name their lizards, what their diet is, what vet to go to, what meds to give, that is all secondary to starting with a proper setup, and proper temps.

A moisture gradient is right up there as well.

You don't get tired, and discouraged, of keepers posting the same problems again and again, and again? Week after week, month after month, year after year? With the same symptoms, and the same struggling Beardeds? They are already using the "Bearded Manual" type caresheets, with "hot spots" of 95-105F, dry substrates, and billion watt bulbs. That ignorance is the source of the problem.

These issues come down to husbandry 99% of the time, and substandard temps and hydration. Too cool, too dry. Too cool, too moist. Too hot, too dry.

It is NOT that hard at all to achieve a proper setup. We have dozens of FAQs on our site specifically detailing temps, hydration, setups, caging, theory, approaches, all of it. The info is out there, and it isn't hard to follow.

If keepers would learn to offer a proper temp gradient, and a proper moisture gradient, these health issues would disappear.

But no, instead we get tons of posts of "My beardie is sick. FU though, I "totally" know what I am doing, temps are "fine", and now you have hurt my feelings."

Or "I prefer tile/paper/liner/sand because it is prettier to me, and that is what is important."

Ugh, let's be less about the keepers, and more about the reptiles : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

the funny thing is my husbandry has been correct and has worked! my beardies have always been healthy and never had husbandry issues! as well as my other reptiles! and the issue not being adressed is robyn YOU DONT KEEP BEARDED DRAGONS! my dragons are sitting steady at 106f in their basking spot. the reason people post and post is because ALL ANIMALS will continue to have issues! if your "tired of the same postings" dont look at the forums! stop acting like your the queen of the husbandry department ( or king considering the goatee lol) or the savior for all herp keepers or whatever pedestal you've placed your "vent" side on! you have no proof that your method works so until a proper investigation is obtained (and not by you but by a PROFESSIONAL) stop telling keepers that "thats not hot enough i recommend a basking site of ""AT LEAST"" 120f" unless your prepared to refund all the dragons your little suggestion kills.

so kindly put... butt out robyn your oppinion is not accepted any longer
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REAPER REPTILES

"so kindly put... butt out robyn your oppinion is not accepted any longer"

That post is downright hysterical.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

This gets old fast...

Robyn for one thing, is a guy and he's no newbie to reptile keeping. He's been around alot longer than I have and I have been keeping reptiles for 10 years...give or take. BDLvr's been around for quite some time...though only remember him posting over the last 5 or 6 years..but he could have been doing so for far longer...as for how long he's kept reptiles...far longer than me I am certain.

Both methods work, both over good advice when not trying to prove the other wrong and their right. Thing is, they are both right and should just accept that not everybody is going to agree to their methods...

Myself...I see nothing wrong with having the high point of a basking area being 120F. What alot of people don't understand is basking sites should not be skinny little sticks barely big enough to hold a dragon without him falling off and only really give access to one temperature.

Big wide angled or stepped styled basking areas are the best way to present dragons with a choice. When it comes to knowing the ideal temperature a dragon should be in and wants, is the dragon himself. If he has a 120F basking area he can climb up to and he wants to use it, he will. If he has one at 115F, 110, and 100F...he will use whichever one he feels comfortable in. If his choices are limited to either 130F or 100F...he may spend more time in the lower temp...but he may prefer to be in a little warmer area but since he is very limited in what range of temperatures he can bask in comfortably...he doesn't have any option but take the closest one to what he feels is ideal.

In my old dragon cage which was 5'x2'x2'(same size as my new one), I had a large piece of driftwood which angled up a rough 40 decrees towards the basking bulb. Along the upper slope of this driftwood, the basking temps were around 120F (I didn't have a temp gun at the time, just a digital thermometer with probe, and it wasn't easy to measure the temps on a slope (especially when my dragon usually laid ontop of it). When I moved the probe to lower areas of the same driftwood, temps ranged between 95-115F on different areas. THe bottom of the cage closest to the driftwood and basking bulb, temps were about 90F. The cool end usually hung around 75F during the day (dropped to about 69F at night which was my room temperature at the time).

My first dragon, I observed would be at the highest point of the driftwood she can reach, right in the 120F zone for a good hour in the morning then she would move lower on the log in the 100-110F areas. After she ate, she was right up on the hottest point again. In the summer when it was warmer in my apartment, she would spend more time in lower areas...but still would use the hottest available temperature zone after eating and in the mornings.

My current dragon, who doesn't quite have as much range of temps to choose from as the basking perches I have aren't as good as that old piece of driftwood...she tends to spend time in the hottest areas in the morning she can reach...I intend to provide far better basking areas for her this summer...as I am going driftwood hunting first chance I get, (ie when the snow melts in the bush so I can get access to non private property shore front where I can collect driftwood) Or I may just build my own.

I know I don't have anywhere near the numbers of dragons many other posters have who have more years experience breeding, keeping, rehabilitating dragons, but I do know how my dragons behave from personal observations. Thus I don't find fault in Robyn's suggestions of providing a hot basking area (but this shouldn't be the only basking temp available to a dragon to bask in). The only real downside is in some setups, getting the range of basking areas a dragon can choose from...without overheating the rest of the cage (good ventilation helps on this...my cages have screen doors, so the cages don't over heat even with the hot spot on the higher part of the basking areas) and having a cage that is at least minimum recommended size (4'x2'x2' for single adult) and a wide sloping basking platform (be it stepped, a wide log at an angle, driftwood, piles of bricks etc) so it gives a dragon plenty of room to recline in a certain temperature zone without being half in another.

It is good to keep things basic and simple for the new comers in the bearded dragon keeping world, but in all my research the best advise was properly interpreting what is meant by 'basking temp being 95-115F (or even 120F)'. I think alot of people think having a basking spot temp anywhere in that range...and only that single basking temp..is okay...and a cooler side of the cage in a lower temperature (ie 75F). To me I always felt that range meant providing a multitude of locations on the basking platform (be it drift wood, rocks, logs etc) which provide different temps in that range or even a little above for the higher points (since dragons naturally climb 'up' to reach hotter temps)

Though I haven't had the opportunity to observe bearded dragons in the wilds of Australia (I will be happy to take a trip out there for a week to photograph, measure temps, record behaviors etc. just contact me off list and we can arrange something LOL ) but I expect, dragons are up out of their burrows or where ever they bedded down for the night at dawn, basking in the hottest temps they can access till their bodies reach the core temperature they required, then they are off looking for food, avoiding predators, head bobbing to intimidate any rivals for territory or mates, heading into cooler areas as the day gets hotter, or moving in and out of various temperature ranges as their needs require, constantly looking for food and on the lookout for predators.

Any documentaries I have seen about lizards...they are rarely sitting still for very long (though this could be just how the film was cut in the editing room). Most skitter about, pause, check their surroundings, chase down a bug, eat, look around, skitter off somewhere else, dive into cover when the shadow of a hawk moves over head...etc. Even slow moving lizards like horned toads etc. don't tend to stay in one spot for a long period of time. Unfortunately I haven't seen much documentaries of dragons in the wild...only one I really remember is a Crocodile Hunter episode where Steve encountered an Inland Bearded dragon who promptly hissed and blacked his beard at him...then ran underneath the jeep (and I think it ended up biting Steve's nose too). But it was out in the open initially and it looked to be fairly late in the day (not sure if close to noon or after noon, but definitely looked hot, given the amount of sweet on Steven's face).

And I think I talked enough about my observations. The real point of this thread was a substrate question if I recall now, not really a temperature question.
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PHLdyPayne

All I have to say is some people seriously need to get a life. I am 17 and think you are all acting like children and honestly you seem like a bunch of losers. If I was to show anyone else this whole stupid discussion I think they would agree with me. So get a life...

Darien
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Darien Drollinger

sales@highendreptiles.com
www.highendreptiles.com

You Cry, I Cry, You Laugh, I Laugh, You Fall Off A Cliff, I Laugh Harder

Yes and it was very mature of you to point it out. lol.

"ok im sorry i definately dont agree with you on that one. you definately dont need to be in the 120's for metabolism to work correctly. i checked the basking spot today and it is 100-105 degrees and they have been basking AND when they bask they vent (sit with their mouths open to cool themselves)."

The reason I asked you before how you were recording temps is because personally I think it may be too hot in your cage for little ones...100-watt bulb is overkill for a 55G tank(especially a narrow beam). It's also tougher to get an accurate surface temp with a screen-top, aquarium type cage. You have to get your hand in there so screen top and heating source have to be moved a bit to shoot the temp.

Lizards can dissipate heat through gaping..this is true. But if they had a cool retreat in the 70-degree range they would never have the need to "sweat it out"...gaping is not the preferred method to cool down.

120F isn't a bad temp, but not all setups will work with it and not all dragons will be out in that temperature for long. A good range is between 100-120F depending on each setup. The real important issue is to have a range of basking temperatures accessible to the dragons so they can choose what temp they prefer to bask in. Large wide and angled basking spots work best, so dragons can be higher up on the basking spot if they want the hotter (120F) temps or can stay lower on the basking area if they prefer 115F or 100F. Too often I see in enclosure setups dragons clinging on narrow grape vine or those other exotic terrium logs that don't really provide a good temperature range.

Wide flat stones, logs, bricks, shelves, those wooden things with wholes in them, (ricker's stacks? or something like that) all provide a wide range of basking temperatures for the dragon to choose from...as well as the cooler end of the tank.

In captivity though, one disadvantage of having the higher temperatures (120F +) is that dragons will spend less time on the basking area, and thus less time close to the UVB source. this isn't a concern in outdoor enclosures as they are exposed to much higher levels of UVB even in the shade. So dragons need a quick warm up to get moving so they can hunt and eat before the day gets too hot for them and they need to seek shelter in shed etc. Also, they want to reach their prime body temperatures fast, to ensure they are ready for flight/fight as the situation warrents.

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PHLdyPayne

tell that to robyn from pro exotics! lol (she thinks temps should be in the 120s!PSSH!) the other side of the tank is at 82 degrees. and now they've grown a bit i havent seen them gaping. they seem actually quite happy with the 106 degree basking spot. and my tank is a wierd size lol its pretty tall and the light isn't right on them. the reason i use a 100watt bulb is the 75 watt was DEFINATELY not producing any kind of heat above 94 degrees for them and that just doesn't do to well. thats for your opinion though
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REAPER REPTILES

I'd say you probably were pulling 130 degree basking temps, or more. Without a moisture gradient in the tank which I doubt you have...that is too hot and dry. Dragons gape to cool themselves when there isn't another option.

Screen-top cages are harder to get an accurate reading from due to design. You have to move the screen and therefore heating source to shoot a temp.

Nice job getting your foot in the door with Robyn...he is one of the smartest reptile keepers around. Pro Exotics breeds hundreds upon hundreds of lizards and snakes everyear...that is a wealth of experience I doubt anyone has ever achieved here...and they do so at the highest level.

I challenge anyone here to read the FAQ at Pro Exotics. You will have a different opinion of Robyn garaunteed : )

you obviously arent getting anything i say. i have a basking site of 106f and a cool side of 83. they are getting fat growing at a rate of about 1 inch every week/week and a half. as for pro exotics i dont have hate for them but i definately dont agree with alot of their Faq. but its whatever. everybody on here thinks they are an expert.
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REAPER REPTILES

I would say that if your enclosure size is on the smaller side you would need to be cautious of having the temps too high.

If your dealing with an enclosure that is 4 foot long and have a surface temp of 120 you will be fine.

Dragons encounter a wide range of temperature gradients in their native environment in Australia. They dig holes to avoid the sun and hide in shady cooler regions and when they wish to... for food processing purposes they will need to bask. Higher temps may be required if your feeding mass amounts of insects and greens. The higher the temp the quicker they will digest and be hungry again.

If your temps are too low then you may have impaction issues and run into problems with overall health. Too hot in too small of an enclosure and there might be issues because the animal cannot self regulate their temps as much as needed etc.

A hundred watt bulb in a 55 gallon at the right distance should be fine. If it's outside the cage elevated you will need that size bulb. A 165 watt would be too much.

It really comes down to the cleanliness and feeding rituals and consistency more than anything else.

Fixating on certain absolutes when it come to heat husbandry is impossible when the variables are so diverse and numerous.

The d3 UVB issue I have talked to several (big well known top reputable breeders) about and the consensus is that the UVB fuss is over rated. Sometimes you will notice a bit of a jump in appetite etc when using MVB (mercury vapor). Getting heat light and UVB from the same source... as you find in nature.

The dragons skin is not like ours. That is why they are capable of surviving in the desert. It is more of an impenetrable membrane. Over millions of years of evolution desert dwelling reptiles have adapted a non permiable membrane.

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm

This is a good article. In here they claim that the BD requires more UVB (higher intensity UVB) to make up for the fact that their skin only allows about a 4% penetration of UVB light.

Im not certain how the other D3 supplementation would effect their synthesis and processing of the D3. I have used products with claims of having D3 such as a D3 drip for water etc.

I would say that providing UVB is a good practice for keeping desert sun worshiping dragons. I do with all of mine. I also provide lots of shade as I have mentioned before... If you have other means of providing D3 such as supplementation this would provide a good substitute but not an ideal one.

Honeslty though in regard to the D3 supplemntation...

Who is to say? You would think as long as they are receiving a source of D3 they could be perfectly fine. They use the D3 for calcium absorbtion and to be able to process the calcium. Some calcium with D3 allows the dragon to process and absorb the calcium without the need for UVB.

The argument could be valid either way. I personally use the UVB lighting and find it to be the most natural source of D3 for calcium absorbtion.

I think there are cases of providing too much D3 when it is give as a supplement. I know snakes however which I have owned and raised for years. Need D3 for calcium absorbtion... some snakes are not sun worshipers and spend most of their time being nocturnal.

Therefore... during daylight hours they would be curled up in a ball underneath something. Absorbing no UVB light. Only heat... that's is why snake owners supplement D3.

So with regard to the UVB light question... If you werent using UVB you would need to find a good supplement D3.

The animal needs to be able to process and absorb calcium.

UVB is the best way to do this in my personal opinion.

Snakes don't need supplemental D3 as they get all the D3 they require from the prey they eat. Some species of diurnal snakes may benefit from exposure to low levels of UVB...but for the most part, they get what they need from their diet of whole prey.

The main risk with giving D3 as a supplement is giving them too much. When a reptile (or most other animals that need sun to produce Vitamin D3, including us) have enough Vit. D3 in their system, changes in the body stop the production of it. As D3 is a fat soluble vitamin, excess isn't discharged out of the body as other vitamins are (like Vit. C) Since nobody really knows just how much Vit. D3 reptiles need in general on a daily basis, and different species are likely to need different amounts, it is always a risk too much Vit. D3 or too little can be administered..if relying on mostly supplementary sources of D3. Reptiles in the wild, have a natural method of stopping production once their body has enough (either by avoiding direct sunlight, density/chemicals in the skin/underlying layers blocking UVB more effectively than earlier in the day, the lighting/darkening of pigmentation (hence why dragons often look brighter in color when in direct unfiltered sunlight and are very dark colored first thing in the morning and while they sleep...though this also aids in heat absorption too).

Think of how quickly the skin of a fair haired person burns in the sun, without any sunscreen in. I am a red head myself, I can burn within 15 mins or less on a sunny day...even if the temps aren't that warm (say 75F during the summer). Yet a dark skinned individual (people of African or Jamaican or similar, ancestry. Native Americans too etc.) can be out in the sun much longer and they don't burn as quickly or at all..though the pigments of their skin will darken in order to protect them from over exposure to UVB rays. Often these same people have a higher tolerate for heat as well...and less likely to suffer form heat stroke etc..like fair skinned people tend to be (on average...but again people who are fair skinned who live in equatorial areas can get used to thriving in such temps...same with dark skinned people who live in colder climates, can eventually become more sensitive to heat if they go south on vacation...)

There still needs to be tons more research into the effects of UVB radiation on reptiles and how much really is needed to produce sufficient amounts of Vit. D3 in reptiles.
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PHLdyPayne

Thank you for the constructive criticism...

Ideally snakes need a D3 supplement in conjunction with their vitamins. You would need to dust your feeders in vitamin dust with D3. I would do this every other feeding with snakes. I used a UVB light with snakes also and a heat bulb. The UVB light turned on and off set on a timer. The heat bulb stayed on overnight. It would be a red heat emitting bulb.

I found my snakes to not be very active when digesting and some were nocturnal only comming out at night. I had mostly boas and pythons.

All they were fed were mice and rats.

I feed my dragons pinky mice about once every other week. All the feeder rats and mice have is calcium to my knowledge, I dont think they are getting D3 from their food. If so you could just toss your dragons a pinky every other week and not worry about UVB then.

Captive care of snakes from:

Exotic and Bird Clinic of New Hampshire
91 North Stark Highway
Weare, New Hampshire
(603) 529 - 4999

Snakes need a source of ultraviolet light to activate Vitamin D3 in their skin.
Vitamin D3 is used to maintain strong bones. Natural sunlight and/or fluorescent ultraviolet light
(such as Vita-lite) should be available twelve to thirteen hours a day. Most high quality
reptile vitamins will contain Vitamin D3. If possible, check the expiration date and get the
freshest batch available.
Cage mates are not recommended. Most reptiles are not social animals. Handling
should be kept to a minimum.
Snakes that are to be used for reproduction should be forced into hibernation by
slowly decreasing the amount of light and temperature daily.

DIET

Diet induced problems are the number one cause of disease in the snakes we see here
at the Hospital. The best diet is one that closely approximates the 'natural' diet.
Snakes are carnivores and therefore should be fed whole, pre-killed prey such as
mice, rats or chicks. Do not feed raw hamburger or the like.
Feeding live food can cause problems for the snake if the mice or rat decides to
defend itself and cause bite wounds on the snake. Some snakes do need the 'chase' to
stimulate their feeding habits.

Complete vitamin and mineral supplements are a must. Use reptile vitamins that
contain Vitamin D3.

Therefore according to many breeders and captive snake enthusiasts...

Snakes need D3 and do not get everything they need in captivity from feeders. They do not get a good enough variety of foods in captivity and need D3 as well as vitamins.

This is a topic of continual debate...

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Reptiles-704/2010/1/calcium-D3-replace-UVB-2.htm

good article

Proper UVB lighting is the best for dragons though I agree with you on that one. No doubt

As it states in the article I posted...

The synthetic D3 formula can build up toxic levels and be harmful to reptiles.

The more you debate and dig the more you learn so it is a constructive process.

Only thing about the article is it doesn't indicate what species of snakes it is referring to. Nocturnal snakes and other reptiles have NO exposure to UVB light or very low levels if they are getting active in a dusk/dawn twilight time of day. These snakes don't bask in sunlight nor are they exposed to UVB radiation to produce D3. Not all animals require exposure to UVB radiation to thrive and many don't naturally produce Vitamin D3 even if they get low levels of UVB radiation. Instead they reply on D3 consumed in whole prey such as rodents or birds.

For day active snakes like garter snakes, many species of rat snakes, and others, UVB sources certainly would be beneficial. However for many other snake species...it isn't necessary. It isn't likely to cause any harm either in most cases. I have and still do keep a variety of snakes, from corn snakes, ball pythons rainbow boas and even a Texas rat snake. Very rarely do I see any activity from these snakes during the day, even though their cages are transparent and ambient light readily enters their cages. However, I do see plenty of activity from the corn snakes an hour or so before sunset and several hours into the night. The ball pythons don't stir at all till after night falls completely, if they bother to come out at all.

The rainbow boas I had were mostly active at night but would cruise around their cages in the late afternoons early evenings but usually close to feeding day. The corn snakes come out after a few days after feeding and sometimes they peak their heads out of their hides during the day, usually when I am cleaning other cages (they have learned to associate this activity as similar to feeding times, but since I never feed them during the day (only in early evening), they go back into their hides and remain out of sight.

The only time I can see it beneficial to provide some calcium powder with D3 to snakes (sprinkles on prey items of course) would be for females during breeding season to help ensure proper shelling of eggs....but from my own breeding of snakes, never had any shelling issues on the eggs. Nor have I really heard of other snake breeders giving supplements, except in rare cases.

I have read alot of care sheets on various species of snakes over the years not to mention followed many threads here at Kingsnake and on other forums...never came across any that recommended UVB light or supplements for species of snakes who are not active during the day on a regular basis.

I think the writer of the article is greatly generalizing snake care for his or her's advice isn't accurate for many species of snakes. He may be referring to snakes common only in New Hampshire (native species) or have day active snakes in mind more than nocturnal.

It is far better to read about the natural habitat, habits and needs of each specific species one intends to keep as a pet or to breed, than go by a very general care sheet meant to be used with any and all species of snakes. Ball pythons for instance, rarely come out during the day in the wild. they tend to hide in deep burrows (made by some other animal), termite mounds, and other dark tight spaces which has the temperature they like and they stay there all day, venturing out only at night to look for food and water. Ball pythons are also slow moving and don't require food as often as thinner and more active snakes, like corn snakes, garter snakes etc. thus they have no need to be out and about every night or every evening.

Different snake species also have different prey preferences. The majority of snakes in captivity do well on mice or rats but many naturally would feed on many other prey items, everything from insects, frogs, toads, lizards, other snakes, baby birds, eggs, bats, fish and even larger mammals.
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PHLdyPayne

Boas and pythons (animals I had the most experience with...

are not diurnal snakes (they don't bask much or at all), this makes them more dependent on dietary vitamins than many other species.

Im not saying to give them excessive doses of vitamins. Im saying a light dusting every other feeding including calcium with d3.

Eating the same lab rats... day in, day out... leaves gaps in their nutrition. If you breeding them you dont want them to run a nutritional deficit.

Ive done a considerable amount of reading. I can not find a definitive answer either way.

Some say that they get everything they need (as your saying) from the food they eat. Others say that some supplementation wouldnt hurt and that when given orally any excess is excreted.

I dont think I was ever doing it religously. (exactly every other feeding) I used it more sporadically...

But I do remember specifically... I did use this snake dusting powder I found for non diurnal aka nocturnal snakes. It was made specifically for these types of snakes and to balance out their essential vitamins when using feeder rodents.

It had D3 in it though I remember and I even remember the snake guy recommending it to me for nocturnal snakes.

I had brazilian rainbows, balls, burmese, blood pythos, red tail boas, tree boas.

Soil or even a sand/soil mix is a good substrate to use..however its just not what's recommended for beginners or those who don't have the setup/desire to put the extra work it requires to ensure a clean enclosure (well as clean as dirt can be anyway)

A properly bioactive soil has naturally occuring bacteria, organisms etc that break down animal wastes and eliminate the bad part of it (to avoid getting technical). This sort of setup needs to be 'turned' regularly so things are mixed up and the soil doesn't dry out completely. There are all kinds of info online about desert and semi-desert vivarium (or living vivarium) setups for reptiles which go into far more detail on the process.

Of course dragons and other lizards in the wild will burrow into cooler/moister layers of dirt/soil to escape heat, keep warm or at least a stable temperature during cold nights etc. However this can't always be easily replicated in captivity. A couple inches of sand or soil really isn't sufficient to provide the micro-habitats needed to make this work. I don't know for certain how deep it should be but I expect 5-8" inches would be best. This way you can have a dry upper layer and a slightly moist (not talking mud here) lower layer. Also you need a large enclosure to ensure good thermo-gradients as well.

Dragons will get dirty on soil, since most times the soil used is black earth...but dragons get just as dirty on regular sand too, just its not as noticeable as its well, tan instead of black. However dragons on sand look dirty to me anyway but this is just one of the cons of having soil, sand, dirt or a mix in an enclosure. Dragons housed outdoors will be on this sort of substrate for the most part as well.

IN general, non particulate substrates are recommended as they are easy to clean, keep the dragon clean, make it easy to observe regular bowel movements etc. Thus substrates like paper towel, non stick shelf liner and others, are often used.

The pros of any particulate substrate vary per substrate...but in general, they do tend to look nicer, allow for natural burrowing behavior and in the case of soil/sand/dirt or combinations of these, allow for natural moisture layers (if deep enough to allow this, without saturating it and making the cage overall to humid).

Cons of particulate substrates is it can make a dragon look dull/dirty, can be ingested and can cause impactions (blockages). If not maintained properly, they can harbor bacteria, odors and require a suitable cage capable of holding the weight of it and cleaning (most require regular complete cleanings), It can also be difficult to find bowel movements, especially if the dragon ends up 'burying' it before it can be spotted and removed by the owner.

Certain particulate substrates are worse than others. Calcium based sands are bad (no its not digestible...it is too coarse to break down in any significant amount while in the dragon's stomach and more likely to weaken stomach acids if too much is ingested..increasing risk of impaction, and many clump as well). Crushed walnut shells are sharp and can perforate the intestines as well as cause blockage, especially in younger dragons.

The millet and other 'grain' substrates can mold, attract bugs (various grain flies and moths), can smell badly...and even ferment or rot if too damp. Not to mention it provides zero traction... Rabbet pellets are just as bad too..as they swell up if ingested and again can mold etc if damp.

Wood shavings or pellets should also be avoided with dragons due to risks of ingestion and blockage.

For the most part, if you really want a particulate substrate, washed children's playsand is the safest (it can still cause impactions especially if other husbandry issues are not perfect) if you want the 'natural' look but without the added care required with all soil or soil/sand mix substrates in a living vivarium style.
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PHLdyPayne

Oh Payne, where oh where is your vitriol and anger?
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

I am a mod, can't let my anger and whatever that other thing was show
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PHLdyPayne

LdyPayne you should try sand some day. It really is the best substrate out there. Dragons do not get dirty on sand. They get dirtier on non particulate substrates because active dragons tend to get in their own waste. With sand the waste becomes coated and cannot get on the dragon or be spread around the enclosure. I'm sure you can tell many a story of coming home and having to clean the entire enclosure that is smeared with poo. There can be a slight discoloration to very light colored female dragons that dig in the wet sand of a nest box otherwise there is no discoloration at all.

I also use tile and shelf liner in my enclosures with disabled, quarentined, or injured animals, so I have long term experience with a variety of non particulate substrates.

I will say there is one very big drawback with sand. I use 120 50# bags of sand per year from Toys R Us at a cost of $5.99/bag. That's 6,000 lbs. of sand to haul home, 6,000 lbs. of soiled sand to haul into the woods, and 6,000 lbs to pour into enclosures. I have many times considered other substrates because it takes me 3 hrs. per enclosure to remove old sand clean the enclosure and put in new sand twice a year. But, I feel all the other optons would be a step down for the animals.

Seeing a dragon dig in for a long rest is worth the hassle to me.

Well, according to Dr Douglas R. Mader, DVM, the top reptile vet in the United States, if not the entire world. The author of all medical textbooks on the subject of reptile health and medicine, when I asked him "would you keep dragons on sand" gave me the answer, NO. In nature, dragons live on hard pack substraight. Similar to the desert "crust" we have here in Nevada. They are not likely to injest much.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Sand will wind up in the kinky little colon of your dragons. It may not cause a total blockage killing the dragon, but somewhere in those little twists and turns is a ball of sand. Maybe sand is why there are so many BOI posts about high end babies dieing two weeks after they are purchased. More likely inbreeding, but that is a different post.

You are all welcome to disagree and tell me you have no problems with the dragons you are keeping on sand (since you dont xray your dragons all that often im sure), but for me, when the top reptile vet in the world tells me no sand, its no sand for me.

And before the "self proclaimed" dragon experts attack me, I have no time for girlie forum catfights. Advice can be taken or left, that is the beauty of advice.
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www.moonstonedragons.com

I don't feed mine on sand anyway. But, dirt is as likely to stick to a dragons tongue as sand. Animals eat substate because their needs are not being properly met. Dr. Mader only says no sand because he is intimately aware of how poorly most reptile owners are at taking care of their animals. I have watched enough vet abandonment and rescues die to understand where he is coming from. People that post here are trying to provide the best conditions for their animals. Most BD owners never spend 5 minutes finding out how to take care of their animal.

Though I haven't used sand myself, I have been around other dragon keepers in my area who do use sand. Their dragons always look dusty.

As for spot cleaning on self liner, I rarely have to clean the entire cage after a bowel movement as my dragon seems to prefer to go either first thing in the morning or late afternoon, and I notice it within minutes after she's done. Only time I had to do a complete cage clean up was when I was away for a weekend.

My current cages are not really designed for sand, the bottom isn't really sturdy enough to support the weight of sand though the cage I used to have with my first dragon, it was originally designed to be used with sand but I opted out of it.

I also really don't like the look of sand in general or dirt/sand/soil mixes but dragons are content on many substrate types as long as all their other needs are met. However, when my dragon was having infertile clutches, she definitely dug alot in the egg laying bin I provided...often she would dig and sleep in the gave she made (with some help of a large plastic bowl with a large opening broken off the side. I buried this with the opening facing the direction she would be digging as I was worried the sand would collapse on her). But since the sand was slightly damp, she always came out of it dirty. Before i provided this she would be digging around the cage like mad which made me realise she was indeed gravid. She's never tried digging in the cage previous to this or since the summer.

I wouldn't mind having a proper realisitc cage setup complete with bioactive soil/sand mix and live semi-arid type plants etc for my dragons and other lizards, but right now, just don't have the carpentry skills to build a good cage, nor the funds to pay somebody or buy one.
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PHLdyPayne

BDlvr,I like sand in some cages as well...BTW...with that great amount of sand you are using,having to carry all that weight, you could get on a schedule that could turn into a good work-out for you,and thus your dragon friends would benefit you in another way LOL !!

...that seems like alot of hassle for such a useless, dessicating particle.

Soil doesn't need to be changed out if you do it right : )

Just turned and moistened every once in a while.

So you say. Good luck with that.

Thanks guy's for all the "advice" i guess i have a lot to think about now. It is good to see there are so many people who are pasionate about there animals.
Rick

The worst thing about sand is not the imapctions it is the respiratory infections that occur.

I've never ever had a respiratory infection in ANY of my animals. Respiratory infections are never caused by sand. You should re-research this.

High dust concentration or silica dust can cause lung irritations which can lead to respiratory infections...though to be honest, never heard of sand/dust being the direct cause of a respiratory infect in lizards. 99% of the time the cause is either too much humidity or too little or temperatures are too cold for the species or any combination. Also, caused as a secondary infection due to some other ailment which weakened the animal's defenses making it more susceptible to an URI.
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PHLdyPayne