Reptile & Amphibian Forums

a lot of the stuff in this article sounds really similar doesn't it
Task Force Ends Public Input

their taken over stuff like whats in the article 95% of us dont pay attention to or really care about, they run with the abstract stuff like that a little here a little there before they start working on the big things, get us used to to the goverment take over ans tripping of powers from the people and in the process were institutionalized so when they go for the big things, we the people dont put up a big resistance, its coming, listen to the lyrics in this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdqyTmfDwk0 i truely believe this is our future if something huge doesnt happen now, i dont believe it will though people are to placid anymore when it comes to doing anything outside there own personal lives, all the laws here within the reptile community are examples of that, you once told me Jeff no one will do anything unless the fire is in their backyard, alot of time as long as it isnt in reach of the house they still wont do anything

I don't know what it is, but it ain't just lead in the water they're drinkin' !
This is insanity.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You'll notice that the "Big Green" groups behind this are some of the same so-called "Environmentalists" we're fighting ourselves. What you WON"T see are the true, old-guard environmental groups such as the National Wildlife Federation, Audubon, Society, Nature Conservancy, etc.. For these groups support science and science-based policy.

But unfortunately, as our society becomes more and more divorced from nature and wildlands, these groups are losing membership to radical "no use" groups like HSUS, PETA, Defenders of Wildlife, etc. When you learn about nature mainly from Disney cartoons and Animal Planet, all of a sudden fishing, hunting, herping and any other use of nature looks somehow wrong. This is a very bad thing, both for us and the natural environment.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad,

It's all about a society of elite noble landed gentry keeping the surfs, peons, and other untouchables off their lands, natural resources, and property.

The way I see it, Game Wardens are the Sheriff of Nottingham's Deputies keeping the peasants, surfs, and untouchables off the King's natural assets. The Commissioners as the Landed Gentry/Noblemen and Ladies of the King's Court.

Does anyone else get that...see the analogy?

Pure class warfare, secret society stuff.

As they confiscate our rights and reduce our discretionary recreational options, as they restructure our economy, destroying the Middle Class, we become Hamsters in the Tread-wheel of Life. No rights, no time, no resources, no options to do anything other than exist at a subsistence level, working for The Man.

It's a Third World, economic/political model. I owe my soul to the Company Man...

It's Feudal. It's Fascism.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I have to agree with you here-the loss of the middle class is key to so many of our problems, not just this one.

As a boomer, I have to say that our generation has proven a pale shadow of our parents, the "Greatest Generation". We've accomplished very little in the thirty years we've been in control, and basically presided over the further enrichment of the privileged, and the impoverishment of everyone else.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Yes I see the analogy. The founding father did too, that's why we have the ability to elect our noblemen.
If you are paranoid you are in good company.
Edward Abbey wrote that wildlife agencies should be teaching us the ability to live off the land and to use guns, so that the government would have more fear of the people.
Isaac Asimov wrote a short story in which he described the last free thinking person in a totalitarian society, as a pet keeper who owned a small collection of odd animals, including a tortise.
There is also a book written by a former undercover wildlife agent in which he expressed dismay at the rampant over hunting practices(buffalo, carrier pigeons, etc.) of early Americans. Among the reasons he expressed for this was that they had emmigrated from societies which totally banned all hunting. Their response to being able to hunt nothing was that once they got to America, they hunted everything. His point was that hunting should be managed with science, not bans.

"National Wildlife Federation, Audubon, Society, Nature Conservancy, etc.. For these groups support science and science-based policy."

Well, that's was not the case with H.R. 669, the Nonnative Wildlife Invasion Prevention Act. I know at least 2 of those groups (who I USED to support) Were for this bill, and are for for banning ALL imported exotic pets.

Read below -

"The House Subcommittee on Insular Affairs, Oceans and Wildlife today held a hearing on H.R. 669, the Nonnative Wildlife Invasion Prevention Act. Introduced by Subcommittee Chairwoman Madeleine Bordallo (D-Guam), a great friend to animals, the bill would set up a process for evaluating exotic wildlife species to determine whether they should be allowed or prohibited for importation and interstate commerce. The legislation is endorsed by The Humane Society of the United States, Humane Society Legislative Fund, Defenders of Wildlife, National Audubon Society, The Nature Conservancy, Union of Concerned Scientists, and a number of other conservation and animal protection groups."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-markarian/an-ounce-of-python-preven_b_190764.html

>>
Well, that's was not the case with H.R. 669, the Nonnative Wildlife Invasion Prevention Act. I know at least 2 of those groups (who I USED to support) Were for this bill, and are for for banning ALL imported exotic pets.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

"Well, that's was not the case with H.R. 669, the Nonnative Wildlife Invasion Prevention Act. I know at least 2 of those groups (who I USED to support) Were for this bill, and are for for banning ALL imported exotic pets. "

Unfortunately true-the first time the humaniacs have found common ground with the mainstream environmentalists-and the scientists. And also, in my view understandable. Like it or not, invasives cause untold damage to ecosystems in this country, and we'll get nowhere by denying this. Biologists are deeply worried about invasives, and they are going to insist that something be done.

But the mainstreams and the scientists, unlike AR groups, will listen and accept sound, science-based compromise. At least we'd better hope so-if not, we have no chance.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

"Unfortunately true-the first time the humaniacs have found common ground with the mainstream environmentalists-and the scientists. And also, in my view understandable. Like it or not, invasives cause untold damage to ecosystems in this country, and we'll get nowhere by denying this. Biologists are deeply worried about invasives, and they are going to insist that something be done."

I know invasive species are a serious problem, and I don't for a second deny that they need controlled. I think that they should be examined, studied, and dealt with as such, so future invasive problems can be prevented. That is what the established routes that are in place are for. The ones that say no Brown Tree snakes can be imported here, or that no one can have a pet Mongoose. For groups like that to support a bill like they did, it shows me that they did not make the decision to support it based on science and reason.

I don't think that is understandable, or frankly "forgivable". I think its all part of the knee jerk responses fueled not by reason but by the scare tactics and paranoia that has been going on as of late. I wonder how many of those "old guard" groups have been/are being infiltrated by the very AR people who want to use them to push an agenda. I personally think what we are seeing is those groups - the environmentalists and the humaniacs becoming closer and closer, and more a single entity - The Enviro-mental-cases.

"But the mainstreams and the scientists, unlike AR groups, will listen and accept sound, science-based compromise. At least we'd better hope so-if not, we have no chance."

It seems at least in the case of that bill we "triumphed", but I am not sure that those groups are not now on board with the groups like the HSUS and so forth...I know I will not trust any of them anymore. After many years, I know I am no longer a member of Audubon.

"Like it or not, invasives cause untold damage to ecosystems in this country, and we'll get nowhere by denying this. Biologists are deeply worried about invasives, and they are going to insist that something be done."

I think it might be time for the Reptile Nation to consider Dave and Tracy Barker's solution to the invasive problem in Florida, which is:

"Is there any action that might prevent still more species of plants and animals from establishing in South Florida?

It isn’t going to happen. It would cost Miami and Florida too much money and too many jobs. But is it a better strategy to attack the rights of hundreds of thousands of American snake owners, destroy thousands of successful American small businesses, and give millions of tax dollars to the invasive-snake biologists?"

Source: www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/OnBurmese_Florida_compressed.pdf

At least floating the above idea in the media would probably make sense to a lot of scientists and scare the sh** out of Florida politicians, like Sen. Bill Nelson.

What a good idea. There's a lot of smart thinking going on around here. I love it.
I saw that photo of Bill Nelson with the python skin in front of him on the table and I wanted to add the caption "Bill, stretch the damned thing a little more for us, would you please." from the media.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I spend 250 days a year in the field, and other than some insects or plants I've never seen any proof that invasive reptiles do anything more than look bad. Even the burmese in fla haven't done a thing other scare some people. Theres not 1000's or 10's of thousands of them in the first place. Theres at most a few hundred or should we say there was till the freeze. When you send in 5 or 10 GOOD snake hunters in and they show up with one for a whole day something smells and its the government wacko's with their numbers. I've listened to Fish & Wildlife and various Fish & Game people lie their ***'s off for years. I want proof period!! and they don't have it. Brad, instead of defending these jerks please read the magazine I posted and then tell me what you think.
Michael Luhrs

I'm certainly not defending CA F&G, nor any other gov wildlife agency. They like everyone else (including our own industry) are totally predictable in that they will go to almost absurd lengths to defend their perceived "turf".

I would love to read that article-could you post a link to it?
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad
I don't think theres a link and I haven't met anyone else that has a copy although I'm sure theres still copies around. It was printed on the east coast so maybe someone back there could scan it and post it here.
Michael Luhrs

I hear ya loud and clear. The system works in a strange way. Actually, it is somewhat counterintuitive. The academics are beholding to the fish and game commissioner types for their livelihood. And the fish and game managers and wardens/LE all got their degrees and tutelage under the academics...inherited philosophies/indoctrination of wildlife professionals by the academics beholding to the commission.

Why are the academics beholden to the commissioners, you ask? Because they are state employees. They must teach, do research, publish, science stuff you know, for tenure...for their jobs. They hold their state positions at the pleasure of the state {commission}. The commission sets the agenda. Academics dance to the tune, to validate the commission's will/agenda.

A commissioner's job description is political appointee at the pleasure of the Governor. They are extremely wealthy, the biggest political contributors with huge land holdings and huge natural assets. Of course they are not going to jeopardize their livelihood..of modifying, altering, destroying habitat with bulldozers, roads, shopping centers, automobiles, parking lots, golf courses, agricultural interests, commerce...by acknowledging that their livelihood endeavors are the primary problem with our environment. You get the picture? The academics are their cover guys. It's all about the elitist mentality maintaining the status quo for the very wealthy and scapegoating the masses.

The Naturalista Elite do their part to curry favor with the wealthiest elite. They fit right into the king's court, joining the agenda by adding their voice of validation, curring favor on high, with their elitist dogma. After all, "They do know what's best" with all their high handed morals and principles. Of course they do, with their self-righteous indignation. How could they be wrong?

I realize this a bit convoluted and poorly written on my part, but I did it in a hurry. A book could be written. Is anybody getting this???

It's all about money. If we really wanted to get to the root cause, it would be quite simple. Too many humans chasing a dwindling number of resources. Nobody want to discuss the real issue. No money in that. We need more consumers for our consumer economy. We need more factory workers to make more goods more cheaply. We need more bodies queued up for military service, should the need arise (in order to protect our economic interest worldwide). Just no money in the truth.

Yea, I'm just another nut-job crack-pot. "Ya, listen to me now and believe me later." I understand many are naive and idealistic. I was too, once. It just takes a while for reality to sink in sometimes.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I learned long ago, if it came from the Barkers, it's probably correct
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I posted at the top of this forum the name and page number under What everyone needs to read.

No post...

Sad day in this country when anyone who enjoys nature is under attack. Makes me stop wanting to even clean beaches. Its o.k., they do not need me any way, besides I can just do it myself. It does kind of cause me to feel like a lab rat, though.

What you WON"T see are the true, old-guard environmental groups such as the National Wildlife Federation, Audubon, Society, Nature Conservancy, etc.. For these groups support science and science-based policy.

People really need to do their research a little better before backing any environmental group old-guard or not. The Nature Conservancy is well known for dirty insider land deals, this organization represents the pinnacle of corruption and dirty dealing. Screwing everyone. The Audubon Society and the old-guard Sierra Club, both have plenty of skeletons in thier closet when it comes to integrity. The environmental protection brand of greed and corruption is no better then the people they attack.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

And the alternative is what? Just let the Corporations run rampant?

The mainstream environmental movement has a history of helping protect habitat and public lands, as well as getting our air and water cleaned up (all of which were a MESS 50 years ago).

EVERYONE-business, government, environmentalists-have skeletons, have utilized corruption and backroom deals. It seems there is no other way to get things done in Washington and our corporate oligarchies. So in the final analysis, you have to choose sides with those whose OVERALL goals you personally share.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

So in the final analysis, you have to choose sides with those whose OVERALL goals you personally share.

That's the point, these groups, clubs don't share your goals they sell you that illusion, and ultimately you bank roll their OVERALL goals. The final analysis is...You have to do the research and not just read the magazines or watch TV shows, find out exactly who really does share your goals, who are the people behind the organization you choose to support. Where is your, save the Planet money really going? Let me clue you in, there's a new history being written by the mainstream environmental movement and their the ones that need to be cleaned up as much as the environment.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Ernie, you're going to have to provide a LOT more proof of malfeasance in groups like Audubon and the Nature Conservancy if you expect to be taken seriously. I'm a lifelong member of Audubon, and always found them VERY responsive to the wishes of their membership-particularly their activist members who are active in the local affiliates. The last thing we need is to have FEWER herpers on local Audubon Boards!

As for the Nature Conservancy, there is not a more widely-respected environmental group out there-even corporate and republican types give it high marks, (if only grudgingly).... And why not? They protect wild habitat the old fashioned way-they BUY it!
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad
They are one of the backers of the actions in Washington. If you want to see more look up a magazine I quoted in one of my posts. National Association for Sound Wildlife Programs from 1976 Vol 1 No. 2 page 27 I hope it will open your eyes. I used to belong to alot of these groups but no more. I not only breed reptiles but make my living as a biological consultant on rare and endangered plants and animals here in California.
Michael

My eyes are wide open. As stated above, I fully realize these groups are supporting anti-invasive legislation, as are pretty much all biologists out there-I don't find this fact shocking in the least. Our job is to give them alternatives that do not destroy our hobby/industry.

Unfortunately (for us) I don't see much support among herp interests for anything beyond merely opposing any regulation whatsoever. This will, in my opinion, be our undoing.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

"As stated above, I fully realize these groups are supporting anti-invasive legislation, as are pretty much all biologists out there-I don't find this fact shocking in the least. Our job is to give them alternatives that do not destroy our hobby/industry."

Please see my above post on this point. Dave and Tracy Barker's proposal is a solution that may give biologists and politicians something else to consider.

>>"As stated above, I fully realize these groups are supporting anti-invasive legislation, as are pretty much all biologists out there-I don't find this fact shocking in the least. Our job is to give them alternatives that do not destroy our hobby/industry."
>>
>>Please see my above post on this point. Dave and Tracy Barker's proposal is a solution that may give biologists and politicians something else to consider.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

NOT TRUE, try reading what I posted first and then try to tell me that they only want to stop introductions of non native animals. Their press release states flat out they want to stop all pet ownership except for dogs and cats or goldfish. I don't know about you but I'm in contact with these people all the time because of what I do, and I know what they think of all of us.
Michael Luhrs

Is on you. Please provide a reference to ANY of the organizations I listed above (NAS, Nature Conservancy, NWF)taking an official position opposing pet ownership. AR freaks, of course that's true-but not the real environmental groups.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

"Unfortunately (for us) I don't see much support among herp interests for anything beyond merely opposing any regulation whatsoever. This will, in my opinion, be our undoing."

THANK YOU!! It was needed to make a counter-proposal with a team of lawyers to be another ear for those working on this legislation. to negotiate. You can't just say "no" and then cross your fingers!

Ernie, you're going to have to provide a LOT more proof of malfeasance in groups like Audubon and the Nature Conservancy if you expect to be taken seriously.

Are you kidding? Anyone who is unaware or unwilling to acknowledge the widely known and proven corrupted wrong doings of the Nature Conservancy, is who cant be taken seriously.

Yeah buddy, They protect wild habitat the old fashioned way-they BUY it, not to mention bully helpless private owners out of thier land and make huge profits from it the old fashioned way.... selling it to the government, selling it to their insider friends (sweet heart deals),on and on....all under the blanketing guise of "Conservation", and the people who believe in them eat it up.

As for the Audubon society, maybe you should look into what they pulled here in Florida with FPL, for starters. I`ll say it again, People should do thier homework before offering thier allegiance to a particular person or group. Find out the truth about what they do and who it is your supporting. The information about this stuff is out there,anyone who is really intrested can find out for themselves and draw thier own conclusions.

Naturally just like with Peta or the HSUS or any other large activist group,Enviormental or otherwise,there will always be followers who will support and defend them no matter what the evidence. That is how these groups gained their powerful positions in the first place, pulling the blind and gullible around by their collective noses while sticking theirs hands into their wallets, Some eventually learn how badly they have be duped, others will go on believing.......... and so it goes.......

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

We have a list of most of the Organizations and I'll try to post them here in a day or two. We need to cut off their cash now.
Michael

The organizations you're talking about-Nat'l Audubon Society, Nat'l Wildlife Federation, Nature Conservancy-even, in most cases, the Sierra Club- all have a decades-long record of supporting sustainable use of natural resources-including hunting, fishing and other "collecting".

Is it a good idea to make enemies of them now? Do we NEED more powerful opponents? Is the tiny amount of money involved in foregoing a handful of memberships worth the loss of whatever influence we might have as members? Is it worth it to encourage them to find even more common cause with HSUS and PETA?

To me the answer to those questions is pretty darn clear. I'll be maintaining my membership and working from within.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Read the article I posted here and then tell me how they are our friends.
Michael Luhrs

Where did I say they are our friends? My point is that they are indifferent to us, but they DO have a record of supporting consumptive use when that use does not have a negative impact on the environment.

Again, we are a tiny minority, and as long as we aren't impacting native species in a negative manner, then we'll be ignored by the mainstreams-it's only the AR groups who are actually out to get us.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

"Again, we are a tiny minority, and as long as we aren't impacting native species in a negative manner, then we'll be ignored by the mainstreams-it's only the AR groups who are actually out to get us."

I still don't believe for a minute that these groups have not been infiltrated by the AR agenda folks, and I think those groups would rather us not exist too.

I really, honestly feel that these groups, INCLUDING the Nature Conservancy & Audubon are moving more in line with the AR agenda. The agenda where anyone who doesn't treat all of "nature" as a sacred goddess that is not to be hunted, fished, used or kept, is an enemy of their sacred nature goddess.

I used to be a member of Audubon and more, but I have seen a shift in the types of folks there, those that used to be pro, or at least OK with things like hunting, fishing & animal keeping are more and more of a minority while those who either preached animal rights propaganda drivel or what was darn near close to it are less and less. It got to the point where it was actively uncomfortable to be around those folks if what you think didn't line up with their beliefs.

All I can say is, go to the websites of NWF, NAS, or NC-you'll find all have policies right there in black and white supporting hunting and fishing. NWF and The Nature Conservancy, in particular, boast some of the biggest names in hunting and fishing on their boards!

Better yet, go to the AR websites and see them attacking these organizations for just such support!

I ask again, is it a good idea, or a stupid one, to demonize and alienate large, powerful organizations who previously have had nothing against us?!
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I know they have info up there about hunting and fishing. I know local chapters can be very different from the organization as a whole too.

"I ask again, is it a good idea, or a stupid one, to demonize and alienate large, powerful organizations who previously have had nothing against us?!"

IF they actually had nothing against us, I would say yes, its stupid. I know my experiences, and due to those experiences no longer ally with such groups because I do not believe they have any "sympathy" for our plight or our collective interests.

If you are truly that much in fear of these groups then most of their work is done. I on the other hand will concede nothing and will not accept defeat. We are smarter and there are more of us than all the people on the other side. We are also a monetary force to be reckoned with, we just have never used it to our advantage.
Michael Luhrs

Read through all these posts, yet missed my point ENTIRELY?

I'm saying not that I fear these groups, but that I HAVE nothing to fear from them. I joined NAS and NWF almost 40 years ago, and have yet to see a single word from them opposing the keeping of any kind of pets, much less reptiles.

And if you think there are more of us than there are of them (asuming you mean environmentalists, biologists, and animal rights members)then I want some of what you've been smoking.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I’m sorry but I thought I was talking to an adult. My mistake, I’ll cross you off my list of people that I converse with on here.
Michael Luhrs

You could just drop the insults and document your claim.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

...throw you under the bus like the nature conservancy is doing to us here in fl. Our local herp society actually donated money to them to buy some land in N, Fl. they had no problem taking our money for that but they sure seem to have a problem supporting my choice of pets, Quite honestly after that I hope their friggin patch of wood gets swallowed up by a sink hole.

I would hit them in the pocketbook. Take a vote in your club, and then draft a letter to your local Conservancy chapter informing them that they will not longer be receiving financial support from your group! That just MIGHT get them to turn an ear your way.

But maybe not. As I said above, we are a TINY minority, and biologists, conservationists, and environmentalists are universally alarmed over invasives. If we can't present them with solutions that address the problem without destroying our hobby, then our hobby will be GONE. Just blindly opposing everything is not enough. It's way too late for that.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

It's a shame people won't band together. If every person who fished refused to buy a fishing license for one year and the various wildlife and fisheries departments lost out on that much money the powers that be would be forced to listen. It's not like the animal rights groups provide as much money for conservation as hunting and fishing license sales.
Alas, I don't think it will ever happen. It's like all those people who buy XBoxes and then complain when they fail over and over and have to be shipped back (at the customer's dime) for warranty work until the warranty has expired. I say that if you buy a product that has a documented 60% failure rate you get what you deserve. If even a significant percentage of people refused to buy the systems and the games it would force change.
Anyway...enough of my ranting.
-----
---
http://www.mikefoux.com
http://snakerack.blogspot.com

1.2.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
1.1.0 Brooksi Hypo
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
1.2.1 Leopard Geckos, various morphs
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana

What if everyone with a boat parked it for a year? What if everyone that normally buys outdoors sporting goods (hunting, fishing, camping) from WalMart and all the other retail outdoors vendors, put their outdoor hobbies on hold for a year?
That would get their attention, I guarantee.
The states would loose so much tax revenue and the retailers would loose quite a bit on retail sales. It would send a message. It would get plenty of media attention, too. And we would have the opportunity to drive the message, rather than react and defend all the B.S. thrown our way.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer