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are there pure albino eastern chain kings available....i have been having trouble finding these animals for sale anywhere....i have seen albino florida kings that looked like easterns, but wasn't sure if there were pure easterns available on the market...a friend found an axanthic lookin eastern with silver eyes and wanted to see if he could make snows....and find out if it was a true axanthic at the same time.......any info is appreciated....

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
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Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
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Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
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Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
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Locality Alterna
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Locality Spotted Turtles

I'd say before we start another thread on these you try searching the forum archaives. Have your friend take some nice pics of this "silver eyed" eastern and us "silver-tongued" types will see if we are on the same page. Come on, post some pics! Here is a albino eastern....

Well.. I do believe there are pure L. getula getula amels out there if not mistaken. Not 100% sure, but I do believe at one time there were some folks advertising pure ones. However, there are some definite integrade amels floating around. I will leave it at that.

The origunal stock came from a intergrade zone.

When these first came on the scene at $1000 each i was very interested in purchasing a group. I waited until the daytona expo in August of that year. Before purchase I was holding the neonates at the breeders table. i knew at that moment they weren't pure easterns. Been keeping track of them ever since because I thought back breeding would make they better.

I had worked with hybrids in the past so i can smell them a mile away.

Now there was a amel eastern found and the zoo took it and it never was reproduced. So i guess to answer you question correctly. They do exist in pure form. Just not avaliable to the public.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Of course you mean "pure" not pure right Rainer? The snake cant help that it came from a intergrade zone. And choosing to breed it with "pure" animals simply makes it non locality. I am breeding my male to a nice wide banded GA female this year in hopes of finally making some nicer ones.

"The snake cant help that it came from a intergrade zone. And choosing to breed it with "pure" animals simply makes it non locality."

No, it would STILL be an intergrade, only it would "look" more like the genuine subspecies with every generation of back-breeding it to a genuine Eastern.

How would it become 100% Eastern(L.g.g.) when it never was?? It's simple, it never would, it would simply just "look" more genuine than the previous generation did to be marketed as such. Nobody can make a genuine Eastern(say from the Pine Barrens of New Jersey) from something originating from nigra territory a thousand miles to the west.

Now I'm certainly not knocking the breeding project you have planned, I'm just stating about your post to Rainer regarding the mentioned intergrade animal, that's all.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

that describe in better detail the way a species LOOKS! Doug, I simply dont find it necessary to say that this line is 92.45837% Eastern king! The truth is a WC NJ chain king...cant be PROVEN to be 100% chain king!You cant breed it with a cal king and say its 50-50 because you dont know the actual genetic makeup of the original animals, you only know what they LOOK LIKE. You do realize that subspecies themselves are simply a more specific NAME for a LOOK of a species right? You are arguing against the % of subspecific integration. There is NO SUCH THING as a "pure" ssp. because its definition is arbitrary to begin with. Otherwise you could argue which is more "pure" a NJ or a NC king! Its MOOT, and you should know that!

Through the course of many years, there have certainly been a very small number of genuine amel Easterns(L.g.getula)pop up here and there from different sources, but there has also NOT been genuine amel Easterns pop up here and there that were derived from intergrade lineage from any combination of several other kingsnake subspecies. These being the Black king(nigra), Speckled king(holbrooki), California king(californiae), or any percentage of either of these with varing percentages of genuine Eastern king in them.

Believe me when I say,.."there is as much mystery surrounding this as any of the UFO stories you see on TV involving "Area 51" and the military..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Through the course of many years, there have certainly been a very small number of genuine amel Easterns(L.g.getula)pop up here and there from different sources, but there has also NOT been genuine amel Easterns pop up here and there that were derived from intergrade lineage from any combination of several other kingsnake subspecies. These being the Black king(nigra), Speckled king(holbrooki), California king(californiae), or any percentage of either of these with varing percentages of genuine Eastern king in them.

Doug, that was totally confusing to me and I know whats going on,lol. How do you expect a newbie to interpret that? While we can aknowledge that the original animal of the most popular line may have been from an intergrade zone....its not like it has been outcrossed to any of the other ssp. you mentioned and misrepresented. Captive breeding is all about refinement of genetics as much or more than about their "preservation". Most would agree that it would be no more correct had the hobby kept this line "pure" and bred only to other intergrades....and they wouldnt be as nice looking as they are today. Suffice to say they are getting better, like most morphs. And lets face it, its about what they LOOK like not where they are from. Its a morph after all....

"its not like it has been outcrossed to any of the other ssp. you mentioned and misrepresented"

HUH??,.......there are all KINDS of combinations of stuff out there. Are you trying to tell me there ISN'T any other subspecies of king in ANY of the so-called amel "Easterns" out there?. And that there aren't any amel Cal. king x Easterns out there?,.....c'mon man!..LOL!

It's the same story with any of the so-called "albino Sinaloans" offered for sale. They ain't genuine Sinaloans either. There isn't really anything to debate here.

Is a coin that has been stamped with a mintmark that it never had before when it was made all of the sudden the genuine article just because it now "looks" like one?

I'm certainly not saying everyone does this to deceive people on purpose, it also happens all the time because many people doen't know what they are looking at to begin with and simply want to make more snakes,....whatever they may be.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I am in no way bashing any natural intergrade snakes found in the wild either. Just simply making some points about some of the particular snakes propogated in the hobby is all.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Alot of the L. getula and L. triangulum morphs are like KFC nowadays. Only the Colonel knows the "secret" recipe and the workers selling it are calling it what they were told it is LOL!!

LOL!!!,....that's right Kevin. That's really all there is to it.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

*
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

np

Here is one from a KFC chicken farm...LOL!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

HUH??,.......there are all KINDS of combinations of stuff out there. Are you trying to tell me there ISN'T any other subspecies of king in ANY of the so-called amel "Easterns" out there?. And that there aren't any amel Cal. king x Easterns out there?,.....c'mon man!..LOL!

Doug, what are YOU trying to say? You want to paint with a broad brush, so show me ONE cal king x chain king intergrade...and it doesnt have to be albino. I bet you cant, and if you cant I'd suggest that such a breeding is either rare or non-existent. I think it irresponsible to infer they are common enough to laugh about....

It's the same story with any of the so-called "albino Sinaloans" offered for sale. They ain't genuine Sinaloans either. There isn't really anything to debate here.

Doug, if you had "locale" Sinaloans and finally bred a albino you would debate. But because you havent you want to assume no one else has?? Mind you, I'm not saying they have, but I'd be talking out my butt if I said I knew it for certain...there are alot of breeders out there now. I would say you didnt know all of em.

Is a coin that has been stamped with a mintmark that it never had before when it was made all of the sudden the genuine article just because it now "looks" like one?

Doug, this is not your coin. I look in the mirror and I see a "caucasian", and I know my family history back X generations. Do I consider myself "caucasian"? Yes. Am I right? For all intents and purposes I am 100% correct. Do I have to be 100% correct? Not at all, its just a word, it doesnt define ME. Are your snakes "pure"? Who cares? If you know the history back far enough for you to be happy and they look like chicken, smell like chicken, taste like chicken, know what I am saying yet??

I'm certainly not saying everyone does this to deceive people on purpose, it also happens all the time because many people doen't know what they are looking at to begin with and simply want to make more snakes,....whatever they may be.

Doug, what you are saying is that its ok to question everything, but instead of doing the work researching what has actually happened you are lazy and cast everything with a blanket of ketchup flavored suspicion. You assume people misrepresent and cast aspersions to that affect. I can say for one who does the research and openly and honestly represents intergrade morphs and hets that this is at least as common if not MORE so than even "locale" breeders.
If I attempt to make a more colorful example of a Hybino king using a albino eastern and a hypo florida(yes, their dbl het offspring should look like some version of the naturally occuring intergrade) then thats what they are. What you are doing without knowing it is training the newer keepers and breeders that its better to stay away from such NATURAL LOOKING intergrade snakes, as if they are in any way substandard, which they arent. Worse, they may copy your line of questioning which precludes research into the snakes they want to purchase....substituting suspicion for research.
Now this isnt personal, and I made these extreme examples make a point. If I can go back 4-5 generations with these intergrade morphs and you can do the same with say "locale" milks, you do realize that one isnt any better than the other right?? Outbreeding, inbreeding, interbreeding are all choices we make as breeders for a desired result. Its hard to argue that some(not all)of these manmade creations arent attractive on this you will agree.....

I have been freakin RESEARCHING snakes all of my damn life Jeff!!. That is how I know what the hell I am LOOKING AT all these years!!Some of the nonesense you just posted to me

doesn't even justify a response to be quite honest.

43 years of snake research Jeff!!Research is also how I know the distinct differences of many types of snakes, that is exactly why I said what I DID!, because I KNOW what I KNOW!

I knew I should never have posted anything regarding this "dead-horse" thread anyway!

I also suppose I was just imagining things when this silly dude comes up to my table a couple months ago at the Repticon show and asked me if I was interested in an albino nelsoni, then I look at it, and it was a amel ruthveni x who the hell knows what else. So I tell him it is a ruthven's x whatever, and DEFINITELY NOT an amel nelsoni, and he says..."oh!, well that's what the "guy" TOLD me it was"..LOL!!

It's these others that are lazy Jeff!, not me!, because it took me decades of research and studying to be able to tell the differences in the many snakes of the world!. So don't tell me about lazy bro!. "Lazy" is what I see all the time when somebody throws two different snakes together because they don't have(or care about having) another one like it to breed, so they figure whatever they have on hand will work. THAT! is what "lazy" is Jeff!!

BTW Jeff, ask Shannon Brown, or Scott Ballard, or many of the other knowledgeable milksnake guys if I know what the hell the exact differences are between sinaloae and a nelsoni are, and if I have a very keen eye or not?...WTF are YOU trying to say anyway???. Your little insinuation about me being lazy and not researching really pissed me off Jeff. How could I possibly begin to "research" all the man-made crap that I see being produced nowadays? Stop being so damn lazy Jeff, and do some research on this, would ya?, and go invest in some of those high-dollar so-called aberrant amel "sinaloan's" while you're at it..LMFAO!!

BTW, natural intergrades are all well and good, so don't even think about starting in on it with me..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, not sure you read that right. Again, nothing personal. I know you can discern the difference, but again you did paint the whole room black by inferring that a chain king x cal king was common....if it even exists. For those who read such threads, it makes what you say more or less important if you know what you are talking about. Know what I mean? Not all of us buy or sell at shows, but we all know the types. Bottom line is knowing the breeder because you are buying someone's WORD, not just the snake. With so many cheapskates cutting corners nothing, not even the snake you find crossing the road is 100% pure anymore. But Doug, you also know broad strokes affect alot of people negatively. If you say X is common instead of even making an attempt to back it up then the guys with less experience do the same thing...follow the leader. Bam! You get guys saying they got albino king boas!
I used to have some real nice, interesting PURE double/triple het yellow rats. I did the research back 3 generations before I bought em. I found the names of the collectors even! Yet when I tried to post an ad all I ever got was this flak about crosses and hybrids! All the while NEVER having done a single cross or hybrid before then! It was too much and I ended up giving up on the project because of this negativity....Its this pervasiveness thats lazy, and you fell into it too! You are better than this Doug!
I wont question your ID skills or husbandry or what you keep/breed or why....but I think everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt before simply talking crap about someone else's project..mine, yours or someone elses. Yes there are bad people misrepresenting stuff, but their snakes arent BAD. I do believe you can "breed out" impurities as easily as you can "breed in" purities. And a thread is a dead horse when people stop posting on it, not when you say it is,lol.

"Its not all about Doug"

That's right!. It's all about many of the snakes that Doug SEES!

Below is just another endless example of some so-called "research" I just did..LOL!

I wonder exactly what all these babies that were produced back in '08 are being called now?..LOL!. Yeah, I'm SUUUURRE they are all crawling around being represented accurately now, AND whatever THEY should also happen to create in the future. As a matter of fact, many of the babies from that mating should be producing more offspring this year and next year!,.....OH JOY!!..LMFAO!!!

I just LOVE all the great comments that go along with this link too..HAHAHAAA!. This guy also "thinks" he knows about the amel Eastern's origin too, but he doesn't. And there were several more amel Easterns discovered anyway. Some probably very genuine and authentic too, as I have numerous stories filed away regarding these.

Do you have ANY idea how many times I have seen crossed, and multiple crossed animals that the owner(not necessarily the breeder) cannot even remember the freakin gentics of. Or how many multiple hybrid pictures I see that look absolutely NOTHING like what their genetic makeup contains, so when THOSE get dispersed into the general public, they will no doubt be "accurately" identified and represented(total sarcasm). I could post tons of quotes like..."I "THINK" he told me it is a blah-blah blah x blah blah, but not real sure though"..LOL!. THAT is the reality of the way this hobby works Jeff. I could go on and on, and really flip some wigs with some interesting facts about what certain things are, but why bother stepping on toes now??..LOL!!, the damage has long been done!.

Certainly all these people saying.."I THINK it is a blah blah blah x whatever" don't ever breed them to anything, right?..HAHAHAAA!.....GEEEZ!

Anyway, we could go on with this stuff for eternity, so it is really pointless to do so Jeff, so let's just let it ride.

BTW, to any "newbies",....certainly not to frighten you away from the hobby, but it definitely pays to know what the hell you are looking at, or you can very easily be taken for a "ride".

his "great" little project

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Dougi, dont cal kings and mex blacks intergrade in the wild in places? Once again your example failed to show me a example of what you consider a misrepresented animal. Offspring from such a breeding, if rebred to either "pure"ssp., would be MINIMALLY 75% "pure" right? One more generation and its 88%, another 94%. So 3 generations from this "bastardization" the babies would again be 94% "pure" and may "look" like what you want. I suggest that getting better than 94% purity is ideal, but not always necessary to get the "look" that most breeders go for.
You are right, we can go back and forth forever here so I will drop it. But I want you and everyone else to put the pot pipe down and stop being so suspicious. Doing your homework on both the snakes and the breeders will usually put most of these suspicions to bed.

"Dougi, dont cal kings and mex blacks intergrade in the wild in places?"

Of course they do Jeff(southern Arizona and Mexico), but does that plastic tub look like natural desert habitat to you?..LMAO!!

I could list TONS of stuff, and LOTS of photos too Jeff, but why waste my time doing it?,...it wouldn't change a single thing regarding this. All it would do is get more people bent out of shape, and more crap posted, which is why I should have never posted about this in the first place. Bickering about man-made crosses is not really my idea of time well-spent.

So with that said,.....TA-TA!..LOL!

BTW, here is a genuine "apricot" Hondo for anyone that also likes purchasing flooded swampland!. Certainly this and all it's siblings will never be bred to who knows what else out there..HAHAHAHAHAAAA!!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com