Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright, I've finally managed to get it all sorted out and get the information that I need. I just have one small question. According to the Louisiana Wildlife and Fisheries it's totally fine to keep captive bred Louisiana Pines((Pituophis ruthveni)) as a Louisiana resident so long as I have a basic fishing license. No permit needed, according to this LA W&F agent. Now... here's my question. Why wont people//breeders sell LA Pines to a Louisiana resident who has a basic fishing license?

My question is, how are they supposed to know if it's CB?

I'll copy/paste my e-mail conversation with the LAF&W... Certain bits are going to be starred out (like my personal e-mail and IP) ((The question was initially submitted through the LA-W&F "contact us site" found here: http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/contactus/

Bottom to top, the top most is the latest e-mail. According to him, all he would need is documents proving that it was captive bred. Documents like that shouldn't be hard to come by from reputable breeders and whatnot, right?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Boundy, Jeff
Date: Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 2:09 PM
Subject: RE: pine snake
To: Mitchell Brian

Correct

From: Mitchell xxxxx[mailto:xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:56 PM
To: Boundy, Jeff
Subject: Re: pine snake

Okay, just to clarify, so it's perfectly okay for me to buy an LA Pine from an out of state breeder, as long as there is documentation that it is captive bred, and I have a basic fishing license?

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Boundy, Jeff wrote:

Mitchell

It's not a problem, but as it is a native Louisiana species, you must
have a basic fishing license (allows you to keep native amphibians and
reptiles).

Some day the Federal Fish & Wildlife Service may decide to make it an
official Endangered species, at which time you would need to get a
permit.

Jeff Boundy

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Contact Request: Louisiana Wildlife and Fisheries
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 20:19:10 -0600 (CST)
From: xxxxxxxxx
To: ldwfcontact@gmail.com

Name = xxxxxxx
Email = xxxxxxx
Company =
Message = As a Louisiana resident, is it against the law to own a
captive bred Louisiana Pine Snake(Pituophis ruthveni)? If so, is there a
permit that I can get that allows me to own captive bred specimens?
Thank you.

Submitted from xx.xxx.xxx.xx at 20:19:05 on 03/08/2010

How are the LA authorities (or any for that matter) going to know if a certain individual specimen is indeed CBB. The short answer is they DONT.

However, if you have a receipt from Ginter (Hi John!) certifying a CBB P. ruthveni was purchased on a given date you have what is considered "reasonable doubt" and thus the officer will not charge. In fact he will say "Oh terrific! You are helping the species". At least I hope he will. With minimal consideration he would realize it would be a waste of time. Hell, you can present reasonable doubt in a case against you. That is the standard of innocense in the USA.

Bottom line for any and all animal purchases? Demand itemized receipts and definitely KEEP your receipts. If a dealer will not provide an itemized receipt, don't buy from him. The next guy will. We certainly do _on request_.

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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

Asking for and keeping up with a receipt wouldn't be an issue, and perhaps a document listing the known lineage of the snake in question probably wouldn't be too much of a hassle either if the breeder were willing to provide such info...

It's finding a breeder/seller who doesn't balk at the mention of "Louisiana resident" where I'm having an issue now. t_t The moment I mention "Louisiana Resident" the conversation goes stone cold.

I missed your problem, my bad!

It is most likely they are worried about being busted for Lacey Act violations for sending you an animal you may not legally possess. If you can illustrate with clarity you are 101% legitimate and legal, they have no reason to turn you down.

I am not suggesting you are trying to pull a fast one. Not even remotely. Just explaining what I would require to clear up my own misconception.

IE: I happen to know New York residents may not possess native reptiles. I had a gentleman ask to buy some spotted turtles from me. I said it is not legal in New York to possess spotteds. He responded with "I have a permit". He faxed the permit and I called NY Game and Fish (or whatever they are called), they verified the permit as legitimate.

My guy got his turtles.

Somewhere in LA F&G code is a statute that says "to possess native wildlife you must have a fishing license" (or some similar). Likely the code is online and an easy link is made. A scan of your fishing license then opens all doors. Everybody is comfortable and you get ur snakes.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

Or I can just have a copy made of my fishing license when I get them made/renewed each year and send that copy to the breeder/seller? Kinda like how I had to have copies of federal permits sent to the breeder for other reptiles to ship with those particular reptiles?

>>Or I can just have a copy made of my fishing license when I get them made/renewed each year and send that copy to the breeder/seller? Kinda like how I had to have copies of federal permits sent to the breeder for other reptiles to ship with those particular reptiles?

not every year. just for the transaction. still they need to see the law that permits this.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

Kitt,
I addition to the other responses, if you provide a breeder with a VALID/CURRENT LA fishing license and get your snake(s) then you will need to MAKE SURE that you maintain valid and current fishing licenses for each calendar year that you have the snakes in your possession. In other words, it's not a one-time thing.
Cheers!
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--Brian Scott

NO ONE asks to see your fishing license at the local shows or petshops when purchasing a native species. However, if LWF finds you have native snakes in a sack in your vehicle or boat, then they will ask to see your license as it is required to capture snakes. Also, LA requires a permit/license (not fishing) to sell natives in the state.

I am not aware of needing a fishing license to own a native species in the state. Surely Petco and Petsmart are not asking to see your valid LA fishing license to sell you a cornsnake, which are native to LA. HOWEVER, if you have a native LA snake in your possession, LFWS may ask to see your LA fishing license as it is required to CAPTURE LA native species. A special license is also required for residents to SELL LA native species within the state (ie, local herp shows, to local pet shops, online, etc.). I am not sure if this applys to out of state sellers, but out of staters do need the special license to sell in LA if they are doing a LA show. Its a bit funky, and it may be the reason the vendors do not want to sell you a LA native. Nothing really on your end, they just dont have the required license to sell a LA. My suggestion, go to a local LA herp show. There was one vendor selling a pair of juvie LA pines last year.

Check with KJUN Snakehaven. KJ Lodrique has kept and bred LA pines here in LA, and probably knows the ins and outs of the law with respect to keeping LA pines better than anyone.

Thaaaaank yooou sooo much Kevin. When the LA F&W said,
"...but as it is a native Louisiana species, you must
have a basic fishing license (allows you to keep native amphibians and
reptiles)."
I'm assuming he meant that I needed to keep up with a License to collect or keep native species. I fish on a regular basis, so I've always had to keep on on me anyway, so I'm not really worried about that bit. I've never gone to a show in LA, since they seem to all be 5 or so hours away from me. Maybe this year I'll make an exception and plan a trip?

Kitt, there is a show coming up June 5/6 at the Alario Center in Westwego, near New Orleans. The show is produced by Gila Productions at the Alario Center a couple of times a year and is usually advertised on the kingsnake.com website. What part of LA are you in? If near the Shreveport area, there are several shows in the Dallas/Arlington/Ft. Worth TX areas that may be closer to you. However, LA Pines are NOT legal in TX!!!! I have seen LA Pines at the Alario show, and the show in Slidell, LA last summer. Good luck. If you are up in north LA, you are probably close to LA pine territory. All you need is your fishing license and luck to find your own LOL!!

Take Care
KevinM

Who had the LA pines at the Slidell show? I was there but don't recall seeing any.

I know a few breeders in the state. KJ like Kevin said, Theron in the Alexandria area, and at least three members of LGCHS.

I think Rusty Stringer may have had some on his table, but not 100% sure. Brad McDonald had some hypos if not mistaken and that may be my confusion. Yup, Theron had some at the Alario show and I believe Fred Mattingly bought the pair.

Ehh I doubt I'll try to bag any LA Pines from around this area, but I'm hoping to spot one. I have recently started talking to a guy who lives in this area who breeds all kinds of boas and stuff and he is always talking about going to expos and how local reptile enthusiasts will pile up in a van with him and they all go. I'm hoping that I'll pick up on whats-what in LA. That show in south LA is on my list of priorities for the summer.