Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There was a short-lived magazine back in the 70’s that was called National Association for Sound Wildlife Programs. The issue you need to read is Vol. 1 No. 2 and the date is 1976. In it was an article on page 27 called “Think Before You Give” It was a press release from October 24, 1974 from 14 so called Environmental, Wildlife and Humane Groups. There were 26 items that they wanted to accomplish.
#6 “Sale of non-domestic animals as pets, be they indigenous to the US or imported be restricted at state and federal level to possession for educational, research and or conservation purposes only”
Well at least you could still have cats and dogs but you have to fix all of them if you read down a few more numbers.
# 9 “All commercial exploitation of wild animal products be banned” Lets see no more commercial fishing . Nope nothing to worry about here.
Everyone really needs to read this!
Michael Luhrs

Well I've searched the web every way I can think of, and found no reference either to that publication nor even that group. Maybe you can give us more details as to what organizations were supposedly composing this organization?

I did look into both the NWF and NAS position on invasives and "non dog and cat" pets, and as I suspected the news is good. Nowhere that I could find did either organization advocate for a ban on ANY kind of pet. They may support regulations that could have an adverse effect on the ease of importing plants and animals-here is the NWF statement to this effect:

NWF supports a revision of the Lacey Act to require screening of animal imports by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS). The Lacey Act provides authority for the FWS to name groups of animals as "injurious species" and thus restrict their import. However, it does not require that animal species being proposed for import first be screened for either invasiveness or disease risk. This creates unacceptable threats to native wildlife, to the economy, and to human and animal health. Thus, Congress should provide the FWS with the necessary authority to screen invasive animals, both terrestrial and aquatic, rather than relying on the Lacey Act's currently ineffective provisions.

This would, as I said, be inconvenient-but not fatal, and is actually less restrictive than some compromises advocated by some within the herp community itself!

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I'll try to find someone to scan this so it can be posted. As for F&W having a clean list, I don't think you really want that. Do you understand what it would take to show that a given animal is safe for entry? The Scientific studies alone would cost millions and take years before they would be accepted. And then the AR people would have you in court for even more years. You have to look at every thing that is proposed because if it can be abused it will be.
Michael Luhrs

and what I would ACCEPT are two different things.

I don't think a lot of you folks realize-we are facing an existential threat here, and we need to find some way to deflect the huge boulder that is rushing downhill and is sure to crush us.

No matter how difficult they make it to bring in new species from overseas, that will not destroy our hobby. The bird industry/hobby has been operating very well for almost two decades now, with almost no importation whatsoever (only a tiny number allowed in for new breeding stock, none to the general public). In fact, I can obtain any species of parrot now that I could have 20 years ago. the same is true for herpetoculture-if breeders have to provide most animals, we can handle that. Heck, we already breed nearly all popular species in HUGE numbers.

What we can't handle is the agenda being pushed by the AR groups (our TRUE enemies). If they win, we will have to find another hobby to occupy our time.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

"The bird industry/hobby has been operating very well for almost two decades now, with almost no importation whatsoever (only a tiny number allowed in for new breeding stock, none to the general public)."

Absolutely not true at all. Its only true of parrots. Finches & Softbills along with various gamefowl and doves are still imported as WC and bred in other countries in numbers. The whole bird flu thing a few years back wiped out access to many species formerly common. Importation has opened back up.

"In fact, I can obtain any species of parrot now that I could have 20 years ago."

Also not true. Many species have become very hard to find, and some are gone from US aviculture altogether.

any species present in 1990 that are now unobtainable. I certainly can't, and I used to be a parrot breeder, for many years. Even such rarities as Vasa parrots, hyacinth Macaws, and Major Mitchell Cockatoos are still bred in sufficient numbers to supply demand.

Also, Psittacines (parrot-type birds) make up over 90% of the avicultural industry, so the point about softbills is of little consequence.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

"any species present in 1990 that are now unobtainable. I certainly can't, and I used to be a parrot breeder, for many years. Even such rarities as Vasa parrots, hyacinth Macaws, and Major Mitchell Cockatoos are still bred in sufficient numbers to supply demand."

Hyacinth and Vasa parrots are not what I would think of a rare. I was thinking the Horned Parakeet along with the Tahitian Blue Lory & Ultramarine Lory off the top of my head. Never common, and to my knowledge anyway was never established, and none are present in US aviculture. I know I haven't seen nor heard of Musschenbroek's (despite a great deal of searching a few years back) or Emerald Lorikeets either, but know they used to be present. Neither the Cornelia's Eclectus nor the Tanimbar was established either. Same goes for Hanging Parrots, some Fig Parrot species.

"Also, Psittacines (parrot-type birds) make up over 90% of the avicultural industry, so the point about softbills is of little consequence."

Thats like saying, snakes make up 90% of the herpticultural industry, so the point about lizards is of little consequence..I have a feeling the lizard folks would disagree with you.

Thats like saying, snakes make up 90% of the herpticultural industry, so the point about lizards is of little consequence..I have a feeling the lizard folks would disagree with you.

Of course they would, since that would be a lie-snakes are a bit more popular than lizards, but nowhere near "90% of the market"-in fact, turtles are actually the most popular herps at the moment.....

You're wrong about the fig and hanging parrots-those species (very few, I admit) that were established in 1990 are still available. The other species you list were vanishingly rare in captivity even back then, and definitely not "established"...
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

"Of course they would, since that would be a lie-snakes are a bit more popular than lizards, but nowhere near "90% of the market"-in fact, turtles are actually the most popular herps at the moment....."

The reason I said what I said initially was that the birds not being imported thing gives a false picture. AS I said, it was basically true for parrots. For finch and softbill folks (personally being one of those) importation and wild caught birds are still a very big part of the hobby.

"You're wrong about the fig and hanging parrots-those species (very few, I admit) that were established in 1990 are still available."

I said SOME fig and hanging parrot species. Some have indeed been established.

"The other species you list were vanishingly rare in captivity even back then, and definitely not "established"

I know. And now they are never going to be either. That was the point I was trying to make.

I know. And now they are never going to be either. That was the point I was trying to make.

This also isn't necessarily true-under the law, there is a mechanism by which breeders may bring in new species/new blood in small numbers-the stipulation being that they can not be sold to the general pet market, only used as breeding stock. I would want the same thing for herps. Sure, we might lose a few rare and unpopular species (surprisingly few, I believe), but our industry and hobby that we all love so much would continue.

Again, I'm not advocating this as the ideal situation, just saying that the parrot breeders were facing a very similar situation 20 years ago, and they reached a compromise that allowed their industry to continue to exist. We may soon face some stark choices, so we should be ready with ideas if/when that occurs.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

"Sure, we might lose a few rare and unpopular species (surprisingly few, I believe), but our industry and hobby that we all love so much would continue."

Once more, the main reason I brought up finches and softbills to begin with is because many of them are VERY HARD to reproduce in captivity, (unlike most parrots) and IF a ban on them was passed, that would be the end of them as captives. I do not think that only a few "unpopular species" would be completely lost. For example, the avian flu ban on importation took Black Cheeked Waxbills out of the hobby, among quite a few others, a great little bird who though it has been bred in captivity a time or 2, has not been with any regularity, and has not been established. Another of my favorites, the Red Avadavat, are also incredibly hard to find these days.

"Again, I'm not advocating this as the ideal situation, just saying that the parrot breeders were facing a very similar situation 20 years ago, and they reached a compromise that allowed their industry to continue to exist. We may soon face some stark choices, so we should be ready with ideas if/when that occurs."

I am pretty sure I get what you are saying, (we may have to be willing to give up imports to keep our rights) I just don't think using the parrot law is anything close to a balanced example.

Using just parrots as synonym for "the reptile industry" forgets all those species of birds in aviculture that are NOT parrots, and many of which are remarkably hard to reproduce, (or just don't like to for some reason or another that we have yet to figure out) and have only recently thanks to the advances in private aviculture been bred.

I would think if say something like HR669 passed, countless species of reptile, especially animals like various lizard & amphibians who have yet been established would be lost to the hobby.

I agree inasmuch as those herps which refuse to breed consistently in captivity would indeed be lost. Fortunately, this is not as big a problem with herps as it is for birds. Few indeed are the herp species that have resisted all efforts at captive reproduction. i can only think of a couple off the top of my head....

I also agree with you about red avidavit-losing that one is indeed a tragedy, what a cool bird!
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

That publication is from 1976. It's hard for people who weren't around then (most readers of this forum) to understand, but when they wrote about "non-domestic and exotic" pets they did NOT mean retiles (which were not on group's radar back then, and were a tiny market segment usually lumped in with the tropical fish hobby), but things like monkeys, chimps, civets, kinkajous, raccoons, etc. Believe it or not, such animals were widely available at the time from many pet stores.

These animals, of course make HORRIBLE pets for families, or indeed anyone without specialized knowledge of handling and training techniques. I think most would admit that it is a good thing one can no longer waltz down to the local pet store and buy a spider monkey. So it would not surprise me to find some of the mainstreams showing concern about them at that time. But now, 34 years later, such is no longer the case
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles