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FWS Releases Proposed Rule Change

jeffb Mar 11, 2010 02:20 PM

Office of Public Affairs
4401 North Fairfax Drive
Arlington, VA 22203
Phone 703/358 2220 Fax: 703/358 1930
March 11, 2010 Contact: Ken Warren
772-562-3909, ext. 323
ken_warren@fws.gov
Tom MacKenzie
404-679-7291
tom_mackenzie@fws.gov

Service Seeks Public Comment on Plan To Restrict Giant Invasive Snakes

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has published a proposed rule in the Federal Register to designate the Burmese python and eight other large constrictor snakes as “injurious wildlife” under the Lacey Act. If finalized, the designation will prohibit the importation and interstate transportation of these species.
In addition to the proposed rule, a draft economic analysis and environmental assessment are available for public review and comment for 60 days. These documents are available at: http://www.regulations.gov under Docket No. FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015.
“We greatly value the public’s input and encourage engagement into this rulemaking process. The control of invasive species, including pythons and other large constrictor snakes, is a key step in our larger effort to restore the Everglades and protect other vulnerable areas of the country,” said Acting Service Director Rowan Gould.

On January 20, 2010, Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar announced the Service would propose to designate these large constrictor snakes as injurious species. Salazar made the announcement at thePort of New York, which serves as the largest point of entry in the nation for imports of wildlife and wildlife products.

Under the Lacey Act, the Department of the Interior is authorized to regulate the importation and interstate transport of wildlife species determined to be injurious to humans, the interests of agriculture, horticulture or forestry, and the welfare and survival of wildlife resources of the United States.
The Burmese python (Indian python) is currently established across thousands of square miles in south Florida, and a population of boa constrictors is established south of Miami. In addition, evidence strongly suggests that a population of northern African pythons is reproducing on the western edges of Miami. The other species being considered in the proposed rule are the reticulated python, southern African python, yellow anaconda, DeSchauensee’s anaconda, green anaconda, and Beni anaconda. None of the nine species of snakes is native to the United States.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and National Park Service jointly funded a U.S. Geological Survey assessment, which highlighted the ecological risks associated with the establishment of the nine large constrictor species. All were shown to pose a high or medium risk to the health of ecosystems in the United States.

Burmese pythons and other large constrictor snakes are highly adaptable to new environments and prey on a wide variety and size of animals. Burmese pythons threaten many imperiled species and other wildlife. Two Burmese pythons were found near Crocodile Lake National Wildlife Refuge with the remains of three endangered Key Largo woodrats in their stomachs. As a result of these threats, more than 1,300 Burmese pythons have been removed from Everglades National Park and vicinity since 2000. Others have been removed from the Florida Keys, along Florida’s west coast and farther north along the Florida peninsula.

For Service information on injurious wildlife and how to send a comment, as well as links to partner agencies, visit: http://www.fws.gov/verobeach/index.cfm?method=activityhighlights&id=11.The mission of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is working with others to conserve, protect and enhance fish, wildlife, plants and their habitats for the continuing benefit of the American people. We are both a leader and trusted partner in fish and wildlife conservation, known for our scientific excellence, stewardship of lands and natural resources, dedicated professionals and commitment to public service. For more information on our work and the people who make it happen, visit www.fws.gov.
-FWS-

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Replies (91)

jeffb Mar 11, 2010 02:23 PM

DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
Fish and Wildlife Service
50 CFR Part 16
RIN 1018-AV68
[FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015]
[94140-1342-0000-N3]
Injurious Wildlife Species; Listing the Boa Constrictor, Four Python Species,
and Four Anaconda Species as Injurious Reptiles
AGENCY:
Fish and Wildlife Service, Interior.
ACTION:
Proposed rule; availability of draft environmental assessment and draft economic
analysis.
SUMMARY:
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) proposes to amend its regulations
to add Indian python (Python molurus, including Burmese python Python molurus
bivittatus), reticulated python (Broghammerus reticulatus or Python
reticulatus), Northern African python (Python sebae), Southern African python
(Python natalensis), boa constrictor (Boa constrictor), yellow anaconda
(Eunectes notaeus), DeSchauensee's anaconda (Eunectes deschauenseei), green
anaconda (Eunectes murinus), and Beni anaconda (Eunectes beniensis) to the list
of injurious reptiles. This listing would prohibit the importation of any live
animal, gamete, viable egg, or hybrid of these nine constrictor snakes into the
United States, except as specifically authorized. The best available information
indicates that this action is necessary to protect the interests of humans,
wildlife, and wildlife resources from the purposeful or accidental introduction
and subsequent establishment of these large constrictor snake populations into
ecosystems of the United States. If the proposed rule is made final, live
snakes, gametes, or hybrids of the nine species or their viable eggs could be
imported only by permit for scientific, medical, educational, or zoological
purposes, or without a permit by Federal agencies solely for their own use. The
proposed rule, if made final, would also prohibit any interstate transportation
of live snakes, gametes, viable eggs, or hybrids of the nine species currently
held in the United States. If the proposed rule is made final, interstate
transportation could be authorized for scientific, medical, educational, or
zoological purposes.
DATES:
We will consider comments we receive on or before [insert date 60 days after
date of publication in the Federal Register].
ADDRESSES:
You may submit comments by one of the following methods:
&sbull;Federal eRulemaking Portal: http://www.regulations.gov. Follow the
instructions for submitting comments to Docket No. FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015.
&sbull;U.S. mail or hand-delivery: Public Comments Processing, Attn: Docket No.
FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015; Division of Policy and Directives Management; U.S. Fish
and Wildlife Service; 4401 N. Fairfax Drive, Suite 222; Arlington, VA 22203.
We will not accept e-mail or faxes. We will post all comments on
http://www.regulations.gov. This generally means that we will post any personal
information you provide us (see the Public Comments section below for more
information).
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT:
Supervisor, South Florida Ecological Services Office, U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Service, 1339 20th Street, Vero Beach, FL 32960-3559; telephone 772-562-3909
ext. 256. If you use a telecommunications device for the deaf (TDD), please call
the Federal Information Relay Service (FIRS) at 800-877-8339.
SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:
Previous Federal Action
On June 23, 2006, the Service received a petition from the South Florida Water
Management District (District) requesting that Burmese pythons be considered for
inclusion in the injurious wildlife regulations under the Lacey Act (18 U.S.C.
42). The District is concerned about the number of Burmese pythons found in
Florida, particularly in Everglades National Park and on the District's
widespread property in South Florida.
The Service published a notice of inquiry in the Federal Register (73 FR 5784;
January 31, 2008) soliciting available biological, economic, and other
information and data on the Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera for possible
addition to the list of injurious wildlife under the Lacey Act and provided a
90day public comment period. The Service received 1,528 comments during the
public comment period that closed April 30, 2008. We reviewed all comments
received for substantive issues and information regarding the injurious nature
of species in the Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera. Of the 1,528 comments, 115
provided economic, ecological, and other data responsive to 10 specific
questions in the notice of inquiry. Most individuals submitting comments
responded to the notice of inquiry as though it was a proposed rule to list
constrictor snakes in the Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera as injurious under
the Lacey Act. As a result, most comments expressed either opposition or support
for listing the large constrictor snakes species and did not provide substantive
information. We considered the information provided in the 115 applicable
comments in the preparation of the draft environmental assessment, draft
economic analysis, and this proposed rule.
For the injurious wildlife evaluation in this proposed rule, we considered: (1)
The substantive information that we received during the notice of inquiry, (2)
information from the United States Geological Survey's (USGS) Giant
Constrictors: Biological and Management Profiles and an Establishment Risk
Assessment for Nine Large Species of Pythons, Anacondas, and the Boa Constrictor
(Reed and Rodda 2009), and (3) the latest findings regarding the nine large
constrictor snakes in Florida and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. The USGS's
risk assessment (Reed and Rodda 2009) can be viewed at the following web sites:
http://www.regulations.gov under Docket No. FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015 and
http://www.fort.usgs.gov/Products/Publications/pub_abstract.asp?PubID=226
91. Reed and Rodda (2009) provided the primary biological, management, and risk
information for this proposed rule. The risk assessment was prepared at the
request of the Service and the National Park Service.
Background
Purpose of Listing as Injurious
The purpose of listing the Indian python (Python molurus, including Burmese
python P. molurus bivittatus), reticulated python (Broghammerus reticulatus or
Python reticulatus), Northern African python (Python sebae), Southern African
python (Python natalensis), boa constrictor (Boa constrictor), yellow anaconda
(Eunectes notaeus), DeSchauensee's anaconda (Eunectes deschauenseei), green
anaconda (Eunectes murinus), and Beni anaconda (Eunectes beniensis) (hereafter,
collectively the nine constrictor snakes) as injurious wildlife would be to
prevent the accidental or intentional introduction of and the possible
subsequent establishment of populations of these snakes in the wild in the
United States.
Why the Nine Species Were Selected for Consideration as Injurious Species
The four true giants (with maximum lengths well exceeding 6 m [20 ft]) are the
Indian python, Northern African python, reticulated python, and green anaconda;
they are prevalent in international trade. The boa constrictor is large,
prevalent in international trade, and already established in South Florida. The
Southern African python, yellow anaconda, DeSchauensee's anaconda, and Beni
anaconda exhibit many of the same biological characteristics as the previous
five species that pose a risk of establishment and negative effects in the
United States. The Service is striving to prevent the introduction and
establishment of all nine species into new areas of the United States due to
concerns about the injurious effects of all nine species consistent with 18
U.S.C. 42.
Need for the Proposed Rule
The threat posed by the Indian python (including Burmese python) and other large
constrictor snakes is evident. Thousands of Indian pythons (including Burmese
pythons) are now breeding in the Everglades and threaten many imperiled species
and other wildlife. In addition, other species of large constrictors are or may
be breeding in South Florida, including boa constrictors and Northern African
pythons. Reticulated pythons, yellow anacondas, and green anacondas have also
been reported in the wild in Florida. Indian pythons (including Burmese
pythons), reticulated pythons, African pythons, boa constrictors, and yellow
anacondas have been reported in the wild in Puerto Rico. The Southern African
python, yellow anaconda, DeSchauensee's anaconda, and Beni anaconda exhibit many
of the same biological characteristics as the previous five species that pose a
risk of establishment and negative effects in the United States.
The USGS risk assessment used a method called climate matching to estimate those
areas of the United States exhibiting climates similar to those experienced by
the species in their respective native ranges (Reed and Rodda 2009).
Considerable uncertainties exist about the native range limits of many of the
giant constrictors, and a myriad of factors other than climate can influence
whether a species could establish a population in a particular location. While
we acknowledge this uncertainty, these tools also serve as a useful predictor to
identify vulnerable ecosystems at risk from injurious wildlife prior to the
species actually becoming established (Lodge et al. 2006). Based on climate
alone, many species of large constrictors are likely to be limited to the
warmest areas of the United States, including parts of Florida, extreme south
Texas, Hawaii, and insular territories. For a few species, large areas of the
continental United States appear to have suitable climatic conditions. There is
a high probability that large constrictors would establish populations in the
wild within their respective thermal and precipitation limits due to common
life-history traits that make them successful invaders, such as being habitat
generalists that are tolerant of urbanization and capable of feeding on a wide
range of size-appropriate vertebrates (reptiles, mammals, birds, amphibians, and
fish; Reed and Rodda 2009). While a few of the largest species have been known
to attack humans in their native ranges, such attacks appear to be rare.
Of the nine large constrictor snakes assessed by Reed and Rodda (2009), five
were shown to pose a high risk to the health of the ecosystem, including the
Indian python or Burmese python, Northern African python, Southern African
python, yellow anaconda, and boa constrictor. The remaining four large
constrictorsthe reticulated python, green anaconda, Beni anaconda, and
DeSchauensee's anacondawere shown to pose a medium risk. None of the large
constrictors that were assessed was classified as low risk. As compared to many
other vertebrates, large constrictors pose a relatively high risk for being
injurious. They are highly adaptable to new environments and opportunistic in
expanding their geographic range. Furthermore, since they are a novel, top
predator, they can threaten the stability of native ecosystems by altering the
ecosystem's form, function, and structure.
Most of these nine species are cryptically marked, which makes them difficult to
detect in the field, complicating efforts to identify the range of populations
or deplete populations through visual searching and removal of individuals.
There are currently no tools available that would appear adequate for
eradication of an established population of giant snakes once they have spread
over a large area.
Listing Process
The regulations contained in 50 CFR part 16 implement the Lacey Act (Act; 18
U.S.C. 42) as amended. Under the terms of the Act, the Secretary of the Interior
is authorized to prescribe by regulation those wild mammals, wild birds, fish,
mollusks, crustaceans, amphibians, reptiles, and the offspring or eggs of any of
the foregoing that are injurious to humans, to the interests of agriculture,
horticulture, or forestry, or to the wildlife or wildlife resources of the
United States. The lists of injurious wildlife species are found at 50 CFR
16.1116.15.
We are evaluating each of the nine species of constrictor snakes individually
and will list only those species that we determine to be injurious. If we
determine that any or all of the nine constrictor snakes in this proposed rule
are injurious, then, as with all listed injurious animals, their importation
into, or transportation between, the States, the District of Columbia, the
Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the United States
by any means whatsoever is prohibited, except by permit for zoological,
educational, medical, or scientific purposes (in accordance with permit
regulations at 50 CFR 16.22), or by Federal agencies without a permit solely for
their own use, upon filing a written declaration with the District Director of
Customs and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Inspector at the port of entry.
The rule would not prohibit intrastate transport of the listed constrictor snake
species within States. Any regulations pertaining to the transport or use of
these species within a particular State would continue to be the responsibility
of that State.
The Lacey Act Evaluation Criteria are used as a guide to evaluate whether a
species does or does not qualify as injurious under the Act. The analysis
developed using the criteria serves as a basis for the Service's regulatory
decision regarding injurious wildlife species listings. A species does not have
to be established, currently imported, or present in the wild in the United
States for the Service to list it as injurious. The objective of such a listing
would be to prevent that species' importation and likely establishment in the
wild, thereby preventing injurious effects consistent with 18 U.S.C. 42.
If the data indicate that a species is injurious, a proposed rule will be
developed. The proposed rule provides the public with a period to comment on the
proposed listing and associated documents.
If a determination is made to not finalize the listing, the Service will
publish a notice in the Federal Register explaining why the species is not added
to the list of injurious wildlife. If a determination is made to list a species
as injurious after evaluating the comments received during the proposed rule's
comment period, a final rule would be published. The final rule contains
responses to comments received on the proposed rule, states the final decision,
and provides the justification for that decision. If listed, species determined
to be injurious will be codified in the Code of Federal Regulations.
Introduction Pathways for Large Constrictor Snakes
The primary pathway for the entry of the nine constrictor snakes into the United
States is the commercial trade in pets. The main ports of entry for imports are
Miami, Los Angeles, Baltimore, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Detroit, Chicago, and San
Francisco. From there, many of the live snakes are transported to animal
dealers, who then transport the snakes to pet retailers. Large constrictor
snakes are also bred in the United States and sold within the country.
A typical pathway of a large constrictor snake includes a pet store. Often, a
person will purchase a hatchling snake (0.5 meters (m) [(22 inches (in)]) at a
pet store or reptile show for as little as $35. The hatchling grows rapidly,
even when fed conservatively, so a strong snake-proof enclosure is necessary.
All snakes are adept at escaping, and pythons are especially powerful when it
comes to breaking out of cages. In captivity, they are fed pre-killed mice,
rats, rabbits, and chickens. A tub of fresh water is needed for the snake to
drink and soak in. As the snake grows too big for a tub in its enclosure, the
snake will have to be bathed in a bathtub. Under captive conditions, pythons
will grow very fast. An Indian python, for example, will grow to more than 20
feet long, weigh 200 pounds, live more than 25 years, and must be fed rabbits
and the like.
Owning a giant snake is a difficult, long-term, somewhat expensive
responsibility. For this reason, many snakes are released by their owners into
the wild when they can no longer care for them, and other snakes escape from
inadequate enclosures. This is a common pathway to invading the ecosystem by
large constrictor snakes (Fujisaki et al. 2009).
In aggregate, the trade in giant constrictors is significant. From 1999 to 2008,
more than 1.8 million live constrictor snakes of 12 species were imported into
the United States (U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service 2010). Of all the constrictor
snake species imported into the United States, the selection of nine constrictor
snakes for evaluation as injurious wildlife was based on concern over the giant
size of these particular snakes combined with their quantity in international
trade. The four largest species of snakesIndian python, Northern African python,
reticulated python, and green anacondawere selected, as well as similar and
closely related species, and the boa constrictor. These giant constrictor snakes
constitute a high risk of injuriousness in relation to those taxa with lower
trade volumes, are large in size with maximum lengths exceeding 6 m (20 ft), and
have a high likelihood of establishment in various habitats of the United
States. The Southern African python, yellow anaconda, DeSchauensee's anaconda,
and Beni anaconda exhibit many of the same biological characteristics as the
previous five species that pose a risk of establishment and negative effects in
the United States.
By far the strongest factor influencing the chances of these large constrictors
establishing in the wild is the number of release events and the numbers of
individuals released. With a sufficient number of either unintentional or
intentional release events, these species will establish in ecosystems with
suitable conditions for survival and reproduction. This is likely the case at
Everglades National Park, where the core nonnative Burmese python population in
Florida is now located. Therefore, allowing unregulated importation and
interstate transport of these exotic species will increase the risk of these new
species becoming established through increased opportunities for release. A
second factor that is strongly and consistently associated with the success of
an invasive species' establishment is a history of it successfully establishing
elsewhere outside its native range. For example, in addition to the established
Indian (including Burmese) python population in Florida, we now know that boa
constrictors are established at the Deering Estate at Cutler preserve in South
Florida, and the Northern African python is established west of Miami, Florida,
in the vicinity known as the Bird Drive Basin Recharge Area. A third factor
strongly associated with establishment success is having a good climate or
habitat match between where the species naturally occurs and where it is
introduced. These three factors have all been consistently demonstrated to
increase the chances of establishment by all invasive vertebrate taxa, including
the nine large constrictor snakes in this proposed rule (Bomford 2008).
However, as stated above, a species does not have to be established, currently
imported, or present in the wild in the United States for the Service to list it
as injurious. The objective of such a listing would be to prevent that species'
importation and likely establishment in the wild, thereby preventing injurious
effects consistent with 18 U.S.C. 42.
Public Comments
We are soliciting substantive public comments and supporting data on the draft
environmental assessment, the draft economic analysis, and this proposed rule to
add the Indian (including Burmese) python, reticulated python (Broghammerus
reticulatus or Python reticulatus), Northern African python, Southern African
python, boa constrictor, yellow anaconda, DeSchauensee's anaconda, green
anaconda, and Beni anaconda to the list of injurious wildlife under the Lacey
Act. The draft environmental assessment, the draft economic analysis, the
initial regulatory flexibility analysis, and this proposed rule will be
available on http://www.regulations.gov under Docket No. FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015.
You may submit your comments and materials concerning this proposed rule by one
of the methods listed in the ADDRESSES section. We will not accept comments sent
by e-mail or fax or to an address not listed in the ADDRESSES section.
We will post your entire commentincluding your personal identifying
informationon http://www.regulations.gov. If your written comments provide
personal identifying information, you may request at the top of your document
that we withhold this information from public review. However, we cannot
guarantee that we will be able to do so.
Comments and materials we receive, as well as supporting documentation we used
in preparing this proposed rule, will be available for public inspection on
http://www.regulations.gov under Docket No. FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015, or by
appointment, during normal business hours at the South Florida Ecological
Services Office (see FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT section).
We are soliciting public comments and supporting data to gain additional
information, and we specifically seek comment regarding the Indian python
(Python molurus, including Burmese python P. m. bivittatus), reticulated python
(Broghammerus reticulatus or Python reticulatus), Northern African python
(Python sebae), Southern African python (Python natalensis), boa constrictor
(Boa constrictor), yellow anaconda (Eunectes notaeus), DeSchauensee's anaconda
(Eunectes deschauenseei), green anaconda (Eunectes murinus), and Beni anaconda
(Eunectes beniensis) on the following questions:
(1) What regulations does your State have pertaining to the use,
transport, or production of any of the nine constrictor snakes? What are
relevant Federal, State, or local rules that may duplicate, overlap, or conflict
with the proposed rule?
(2) How many of the nine constrictor snakes species are currently in production
for wholesale or retail sale, and in how many and which States?
(3) How many businesses sell one or more of the nine constrictor snake species?
(4) How many businesses breed one or more of the nine constrictor snake species?
(5) What are the annual sales for each of the nine constrictor snake species?
(6) How many, if any, of the nine constrictor snake species are permitted within
each State?
(7) What would it cost to eradicate individuals or populations of the nine
constrictor snakes, or similar species, if found? What methods are effective?
(8) What are the costs of implementing propagation, recovery, and restoration
programs for native species that are affected by the nine constrictor snake
species, or similar species?
(9) What State threatened or endangered species would be impacted by the
introduction of any of the nine constrictor snake species?
(10) What species have been impacted, and how, by any of the nine constrictor
snake species?
(11) What provisions in the proposed rule should the Service consider with
regard to: (a) The impact of the provision(s) (including any benefits and
costs), if any, and (b) what alternatives, if any, the Service should consider,
as well as the costs and benefits of those alternatives, paying specific
attention to the effect of the rule on small entities?
(12) How could the proposed rule be modified to reduce any costs or burdens for
small entities consistent with the Service's requirements?
(13) Why we should or should not include hybrids of the nine constrictor
species analyzed in this rule, and if the hybrids possess the same biological
characteristics as the parent species.
Species Information
Indian python (Python molurus, including Burmese python P. molurus bivittatus)
Native Range
The species Python molurus ranges widely over southern and southeast Asia (Reed
and Rodda 2009). Reed and Rodda (2009) state that, at times, the species has
been divided into subspecies recognizable primarily by color. The most widely
used common name for the entire species is Indian python, with P. molurus
bivittatus routinely distinguished as the Burmese python. Because the pet trade
is composed almost entirely of P. m. bivittatus, most popular references simply
use Burmese python. However, hereafter, we refer to the species as Indian python
(for the entire species), unless specifically noted as Burmese (to refer to the
subspecies, or where information sources used that name).
The subspecies, Python molurus molurus is listed as endangered in its native
lands under the Endangered Species Act of 1973, as amended (16 U.S.C. 1531, et
seq.) under the common name of Indian python. P. molurus molurus is also listed
by the Convention on International Trade in Threatened and Endangered Species
(CITES) under Appendix I but uses no common name. All other subspecies in the
genus Python are listed in CITES Appendix II. This rule as proposed would list
all members of Python molurus as injurious.
In its native range, the Indian python occurs in virtually every habitat from
lowland tropical rainforest (Indonesia and Southeast Asia) to thorn-scrub desert
(Pakistan) and grasslands (Sumbawa, India) to montane warm temperate forests
(Nepal and China) (Reed and Rodda 2009). This species inhabits an extraordinary
range of climates, including both temperate and tropical, as well as both very
wet and very dry environments (Reed and Rodda 2009).
Biology
The Indian python's life history is fairly representative of large constrictors
because juveniles are relatively small when they hatch, but nevertheless are
independent from birth, grow rapidly, and mature in a few years. Mature males
search for mates, and the females wait for males to find them during the mating
season, then lay eggs to repeat the cycle. Male Indian pythons do not need to
copulate with females for fertilization of viable eggs. Instead, the female
apparently can fertilize her eggs with her own genetic material, though it is
not known how often this occurs in the wild. Several studies of captives
reported viable eggs from females kept for many years in isolation (Reed and
Rodda).
In a sample of eight clutches discovered in southern Florida (one nest and seven
gravid females), the average clutch size was 36 eggs, but pythons have been
known to lay as many as 107 eggs in one clutch. Adult females from recent
captures in Everglades National Park have been found to be carrying more than 85
eggs (Harvey et al. 2008).
The Burmese python (Python molurus bivittatus) is one of the largest snakes in
the world; it reaches lengths of up to 7 m (23 ft) and weights of over 90
kilograms (kg)(almost 200 pounds (lbs)). Hatchlings range in length from 50 to
80 centimeters (cm)(19 to 31 inches (in)) and can more than double in size
within the first year (Harvey et al. 2008). As is true with all snakes, pythons
grow throughout their lives. Reed and Rodda (2009) cite Bowler (1977) for two
records of Burmese pythons living more than 28 years (up to 34 years, 2 months
for one snake that was already an adult when acquired).
Like all of the giant constrictors, Indian pythons are extremely cryptic in
coloration. They are silent hunters that lie in wait along pathways used by
their prey and then ambush them. They blend so well into their surroundings that
observers have released marked snakes for research purposes and lost sight of
them 5 feet away (Roybal, pers. comm. 2010).
With only a few reported exceptions, Indian pythons eat terrestrial vertebrates,
although they eat a wide variety of terrestrial vertebrates (lizards, frogs,
crocodilians, snakes, birds, and mammals). Special attention has been paid to
the large maximum size of prey taken from python stomachs, both in their native
range and nonnative occurrences in the United States. The most well-known large
prey items include alligators, antelopes, dogs, deer, jackals, goats,
porcupines, wild boars, pangolins, bobcats, pea fowl, frigate birds, great blue
herons, langurs, and flying foxes; a leopard has even been reported as prey
(Reed and Rodda 2009). To accommodate the large size of prey, Indian pythons
have the ability to grow stomach tissue quickly to digest a large meal (Reed and
Rodda 2009).
Reticulated Python (Broghammerus reticulatus or Python reticulatus)
Native Range
Although native range boundaries are disputed, reticulated pythons
conservatively range across much of mainland Southeast Asia (Reed and Rodda
2009). They are found from sea level up to more than 1,300 m (4,265 ft) and
inhabit lowland primary and secondary tropical wet forests, tropical open dry
forests, tropical wet montane forests, rocky scrublands, swamps, marshes,
plantations and cultivated areas, and suburban and urban areas. Reticulated
pythons occur primarily in areas with a wet tropical climate. Although they also
occur in areas that are seasonally dry, reticulated pythons do not occur in
areas that are continuously dry or very cold at any time (Reed and Rodda 2009).
Biology
The reticulated python is most likely the world's longest snake (Reed and Rodda
2009). Adults can grow to a length of more than 8.7 m (28.5 ft). Like all
pythons, the reticulated python is oviparous (lays eggs). The clutch sizes range
from 8 to 124, with typical clutches of 20 to 40 eggs. Hatchlings are at least
61 cm (2 ft) in total length (Reed and Rodda 2009). We have no data on life
expectancy in the wild, but several captive specimens have lived for nearly 30
years (Reed and Rodda 2009).
The size range of the prey of reticulated pythons is essentially the same as
that of the Indian python, as far as is known (Reed and Rodda 2009), and has
included chickens, rats, monitor lizards, civet cats, bats, an immature cow,
various primates, deer, goats, cats, dogs, ducks, rabbits, tree shrews,
porcupines, and many species of birds.
A host of internal and external parasites plague wild reticulated pythons
(Auliya 2006). The pythons in general are hosts to various protozoans,
nematodes, ticks, and lung arthropods (Reed and Rodda 2009). Captive reticulated
pythons can carry ticks of agricultural significance (potential threat to
domestic livestock) in Florida (Burridge et al. 2000, 2006; Clark and Doten
1995).
The reticulated python can be an aggressive and dangerous species of giant
constrictor to humans. Reed and Rodda (2009) cite numerous sources of people
being bitten, attacked, and even killed by reticulated pythons in their native
range.
Northern African Python (Python sebae)
Native Range
Python sebae and Python natalensis are closely related, large-bodied pythons of
similar appearance found in sub-Saharan Africa (Reed and Rodda 2009). The most
common English name for this species complex has been African rock python. After
P. sebae was split from P. natalensis, some authors added Northern or Southern
as a prefix to this common name. Reed and Rodda 2009 adopted Broadley's (1999)
recommendations and refer to these snakes as the Northern and Southern African
pythons; hereafter, we refer to them as Northern and Southern African pythons,
or occasionally as African pythons.
Northern African pythons range from the coasts of Kenya and Tanzania across much
of central Africa to Mali and Mauritania, as well as north to Ethiopia and
perhaps Eritrea; in arid zones, their range is apparently limited to the
vicinity of permanent water (Reed and Rodda 2009). In Nigeria, Northern African
pythons are reported from suburban, forest, pond and stream, and swamp habitats,
including extensive use of Nigerian mangrove habitats. In the arid northern
parts of its range, Northern African pythons appear to be limited to wetlands,
including the headwaters of the Nile, isolated wetlands in the Sahel of
Mauritania and Senegal, and the Shabelle and Jubba Rivers of Somalia (Reed and
Rodda 2009). The Northern African python inhabits regions with some of the
highest mean monthly temperatures identified for any of the giant constrictors,
with means of greater than 35 °C (95 °F) in arid northern localities
(Reed and Rodda 2009).
Biology
Northern African pythons are primarily ambush foragers, lying in wait for prey
in burrows, along animal trails, and in water. Northern African pythons are
oviparous. Branch (1988) reports that an average female of 3 to 4 m (10 to 13
ft) total length would be expected to lay 30 to 40 eggs, while others report an
average clutch of 46 eggs, individual clutches from 20 to about 100, and clutch
size increasing correspondingly in relation to the body length of the female
(Pope 1961). In captivity, Northern African pythons have lived for 27 years
(Snider and Bowler 1992). As with most of the giant constrictors, adult African
pythons primarily eat endothermic (warm-blooded) prey from a wide variety of
taxa. Domestic animals consumed by African pythons include goats, dogs, and a
domestic turkey consumed by an individual in suburban South Florida.
Southern African Python (Python natalensis)
Native Range
The Southern African python is found from Kenya southwest to Angola and
south through parts of Namibia and much of eastern South Africa. Distributions
of the species overlap somewhat, although the southern species tends to inhabit
higher areas in regions where both species occur (Reed and Rodda 2009).
Biology
Little is known about Southern African pythons. They are oviparous. As with most
of the giant constrictors, adult African pythons primarily eat endothermic
(warm-blooded) prey from a wide variety of taxa. The Southern African pythons
consume a variety of prey types that includes those listed for Northern African
pythons.
Boa Constrictor (Boa constrictor)
Native Range
Boa constrictors range widely over North America (Mexico), Central America, and
South America, including dozens of marine and lacustrine islands, and have one
of the widest latitudinal distributions of any snake in the world. In their
native range, boa constrictors inhabit environments from sea level to 1,000 m
(3,280 ft), including wet and dry tropical forest, savanna, very dry thorn
scrub, and cultivated fields. They are commonly found in or along rivers and
streams because they are capable swimmers (Reed and Rodda 2009; Snow et al.
2007).
Biology
The maximum length of this species is roughly 4 m (13 ft). Boa constrictors are
ovoviviparous (bear live young after eggs hatch inside mother). The average
clutch size is 35 eggs. Snake longevity records from captive-bred populations
can be 38 to 40 years (Reed and Rodda 2009).
The boa constrictor has a broad diet, consuming prey from a wide variety of
vertebrate taxa. Young boa constrictors will eat mice, small birds, lizards, and
amphibians. The size of the prey item will increase as the snake gets older and
larger. The boa constrictor is an ambush predator and will lie in wait for an
appropriate prey to come along, at which point it will attack (Reed and Rodda
2009; Snow et al. 2007).
The subspecies Boa constrictor occidentalis is listed by CITES under Appendix I
but uses no common name. This rule as proposed would list all subspecies of Boa
constrictor as injurious.
Yellow Anaconda (Eunectes notaeus)
Native Range
The yellow anaconda (E. notaeus) has a larger distribution in subtropical and
temperate areas of South America than the DeSchauensee's anaconda and has
received more scientific attention. The yellow anaconda appears to be restricted
to swampy, seasonally flooded, or riverine habitats throughout its range. The
yellow anaconda exhibits a fairly temperate climate range, including localities
with cold-season monthly mean temperatures around 10 °C (50 °F) and no
localities with monthly means exceeding 30 °C (86 °F) in the warm season
(Reed and Rodda 2009).
Biology
The yellow anaconda bears live young (ovoviviparous). The recorded number of
yellow anaconda offspring range from 10 to 37, with a maximum of 56. In
captivity, yellow anacondas have lived for over 20 years. Yellow anacondas
appear to be generalist predators on a range of vertebrates. The anacondas in
general exhibit among the broadest diet range of any snake, including ectotherms
(lizards, crocodilians, turtles, snakes, fish) and endotherms (birds, mammals),
and yellow anacondas have typical diets.
DeSchauensee's Anaconda (Eunectes deschauenseei)
Native Range
This species has a much smaller range than does the yellow anaconda and is
largely confined to the Brazilian island of Marajo, nearby areas
around the mouth of the Amazon River, and several drainages in French Guiana.
DeSchauensee's anaconda is known from a small number of specimens and has a
limited range in northeast South America. Although not well studied,
DeSchauensee's anaconda apparently prefers swampy habitats that may be
seasonally flooded. DeSchauensee's anaconda is known from only a few localities
in northeast South America, and its known climate range is accordingly very
small. While the occupied range exhibits moderate variation in precipitation
across the year, annual temperatures tend to range between 25 oC (77 oF) and 30
oC (86 oF). Whether the species could tolerate greater climatic variation is
unknown.
Biology
DeSchauensee's anaconda appears to be the smallest of the anacondas, although
the extremely limited number of available specimens does not allow unequivocal
determination of maximal body sizes. Dirksen and Henderson (2002) record a
maximum total length of available specimens as 1.92 m (6.3 (ft)) in males and
3.0 m (9.8 (ft)) in females. The DeSchauensee's anaconda is live-bearing. In
captivity, DeSchauensee's anacondas have been reported to live for 17 years, 11
months (Snider and Bowler 1992). Clutch sizes of DeSchauensee's anacondas ranged
from 3 to 27 (mean 10.6 ± 9.6) in a sample of five museum specimens
(Pizzatto and Marques 2007), a range far greater than reported in some general
works (for example, 3-7 offspring; Walls, 1998).
DeSchauensee's anaconda is reported to consume mammals, fish, and birds, and its
overall diet is assumed to be similar to that of the yellow anaconda (Reed and
Rodda 2009).
Green Anaconda (Eunectes murinus)
Native Range
The native range of green anaconda includes aquatic habitats in much of South
America below 850 m (2,789 ft) elevation plus the insular population on
Trinidad, encompassing the Amazon and Orinoco Basins; major Guianan rivers; the
San Francisco, Parana, and Paraguay Rivers in Brazil; and extending south as far
as the Tropic of Capricorn in northeast Paraguay. The range of green anaconda is
largely defined by availability of aquatic habitats. Depending on location
within the wide distribution of the species, these appear to include deep,
shallow, turbid, and clear waters, and both lacustrine and riverine habitats
(Reed and Rodda 2009).
Biology
Reed and Rodda (2009) describe the green anaconda as truly a giant snake, with
fairly reliable records of lengths over 7 m (23 ft) and having a very stout
body. Very large anacondas are almost certainly the heaviest snakes in the
world, ranging up to 200 kg (441 lbs) (Bisplinghof and Bellosa 2007), even
though reticulated pythons, for example, may attain greater lengths.
The green anaconda bears live young. The maximum recorded litter size is 82,
removed from a Brazilian specimen, but the typical range is 28 to 42 young.
Neonates (newly born young) are around 70 to 80 cm (27.5 to 31.5 in) long and
receive no parental care. Because of their small size, they often fall prey to
other animals. If they survive, they grow rapidly until they reach sexual
maturity in their first few years (Reed and Rodda 2009). While reproduction is
typically sexual, Reed and Rodda (2009) report that a captive, female green
anaconda that was 5 years old in 1976 and that had no access to males gave birth
in 2002 to 23 females. This raises the possibility that green anacondas are
facultatively parthenogenic, and that, theoretically, a single female green
anaconda could establish a population.
The green anaconda is considered a top predator in South American ecosystems.
Small anacondas appear to primarily consume birds, and as they mature, they
undergo an ontogenetic prey shift to large mammals and reptiles. The regular
inclusion of fish in the diet of the anacondas (including other members of the
genus Eunectes) increases their dietary niche breadth in relation to the other
giant constrictors, which rarely consume fish. Green anacondas consume a wide
variety of endotherms and ectotherms from higher taxa, including such large prey
as deer and crocodilians (alligators are a type of crocodilian). The regular
inclusion of fish, turtles, and other aquatic organisms in their diet increases
their range of prey even beyond that of reticulated or Indian pythons. Organisms
that regularly come in contact with aquatic habitats are likely to be most
commonly consumed by green anacondas (Reed and Rodda 2009). Green anacondas
would have a ready food supply anywhere that the climate and habitat matched
their native range. Since green anacondas are known to prey upon crocodilians,
they could potentially thrive on alligators, which are common in the
southeastern United States.
Beni Anaconda (Eunectes beniensis)
Native Range
The Beni anaconda is a recently described and poorly known anaconda closely
related to the green anaconda (Reed and Rodda 2009). The native range of the
Beni anaconda is the Itenez/Guapore River in Bolivia along the border with
Brazil, as well as the Baures River drainage in Bolivia. The green and Beni
anacondas are similar in size and the range of the Beni anaconda is within the
range of the green anaconda (Bolivia).
Biology
Eunectes beniensis is a recently described species from northern Bolivia,
previously considered to be contained within E. murinus. Eunectes beniensis was
discovered in the Beni Province, Boliviathus the labeled name of Beni anaconda
and another alias of Bolivian anaconda. Based on morphological and molecular
genetic evidence, E. beniensis is more closely related to E. notaeus and E.
deschauenseei than to E. murinus. The phylogenetic relationships within Eunectes
are currently best described as: E. murinus [E. beniensis (E. deschauenseei, E.
notaeus)]. To an experienced herpetologist, E. beniensis is easily recognizable
by its brown to olive-brownish ground color in combination with five head
stripes and less than 100 large, dark, solid dorsal blotches that always lack
lighter centers. To a novice, E. beniensis and E. murinus are similar in
appearance. The primarily nocturnal anaconda species tends to spend most of its
life in or around water.
Summary of the Presence of the Nine Constrictor Snakes in the United States
Of the nine constrictor snake species that are proposed for listing as
injurious, six have been reported in the wild in the United States and two have
been confirmed as reproducing in the wild in the United States; six have been
imported commercially into the United States during the period 1999 to 2008
(Table 1).

Table 1. The species of nine snakes proposed for listing as injurious that have
been reported in the United States, are known to be breeding in the United
States, and have been imported for trade.
Species
Reported in the wild in U.S.?
Reproducing in the wild in U.S.?
Imported into U.S. for trade?*
Indian (or Burmese) pythonYesYes
Yes
Reticulated pythonYesNo
Yes
Northern African pythonYesPossible
Yes
Southern African pythonNoNo
Unknown**
Boa constrictorYesYes
Yes
Yellow anacondaYesNo
Yes
DeSchauensee's anacondaNoNo
Unknown**
Green anacondaYesNo
Yes
Beni anacondaNoNo
Unknown**
*Data from Draft Economic Analysis (USFWS 2010)
** It is possible that this species has been imported into the U.S. incorrectly
identified as one of the other species under consideration in this rule.
Lacey Act Evaluation Criteria
We use the criteria below to evaluate whether a species does or does not
qualify as injurious under the Lacey Act, 18 U.S.C. 42. The analysis that is
developed using these criteria serves as a general basis for the Service's
regulatory decision regarding injurious wildlife species listings (not just for
the nine proposed snake species). Biologists within the Service who are
knowledgeable about a species being evaluated will assess both the factors that
contribute to and the factors that reduce the likelihood of injuriousness.
(1) Factors that contribute to being considered injurious:
&sbull;The likelihood of release or escape;
&sbull;Potential to survive, become established, and spread;
&sbull;Impacts on wildlife resources or ecosystems through hybridization and
competition for food and habitats, habitat degradation and destruction,
predation, and pathogen transfer;
&sbull;Impact to threatened and endangered species and their habitats;

&sbull;Impacts to human beings, forestry, horticulture, and agriculture; and

&sbull;Wildlife or habitat damages that may occur from control measures.

(2) Factors that reduce the likelihood of the species being considered as
injurious:
&sbull;Ability to prevent escape and establishment;
&sbull;Potential to eradicate or manage established populations (for example,
making organisms sterile);
&sbull;Ability to rehabilitate disturbed ecosystems;
&sbull;Ability to prevent or control the spread of pathogens or parasites; and
&sbull;Any potential ecological benefits to introduction.
To obtain some of the information for the above criteria, we used Reed and Rodda
(2009). Reed and Rodda (2009) developed the Organism Risk Potential scores for
each species using a widely utilized risk assessment procedure that was
published by the Aquatic Nuisance Species Task Force (ANSTF 1996). This
procedure incorporates four factors associated with probability of establishment
and three factors associated with consequences of establishment, with the
combination of these factors resulting in an overall Organism Risk Potential
(ORP) for each species. For the nine constrictor snakes under consideration, the
risk of establishment ranged from medium (reticulated python, DeSchauensee's
anaconda, green anaconda, and Beni anaconda) to high (Indian python, Northern
African python, Southern African python, boa constrictor, and yellow anaconda).
For the nine constrictor snakes under consideration, the consequences of
establishment range from low (DeSchauensee's anaconda and Beni anaconda) to
medium (reticulated python, yellow anaconda, and green anaconda) to high (Indian
python, Northern African python, Southern African python, and boa constrictor).
The overall ORP, which is derived from an algorithm of both probability of
establishment and consequences of establishment, was found to range from medium
(reticulated python, green anaconda, DeSchauensee's anaconda, and Beni anaconda)
to high (Indian python, Northern African python, Southern African python, boa
constrictor, yellow anaconda).
Certainties were highly variable within each of the seven elements of the risk
assessment, varying from very uncertain to very certain. In general, the highest
certainties were associated with those species unequivocally established in
Florida (Indian python and boa constrictor) because of enhanced ecological
information on these species from studies in both their native range and in
Florida. The way in which these sub-scores are obtained and combined is set
forth in an algorithm created by the ANSTF (Table 2).

Table 2. The algorithm that the ANSTF defined for combining the two primary subscores
(Reed and Rodda 2009)
Probability of
Establishment
Consequences of
Establishment
Organism Risk
Potential (ORP)
HighHigh
High
MediumHigh
High
LowHigh
Medium
HighMedium
High
MediumMedium
Medium
LowMedium
Medium
HighLow
Medium
MediumLow
Medium
LowLow
Low
Similar algorithms are used for deriving the primary sub-scores from the
secondary sub-scores. However, the scores are fundamentally qualitative, in the
sense that there is no unequivocal threshold that is given in advance to
determine when a given risk passes from being low to medium, and so forth.
Therefore, we viewed the process as one of providing relative ranks for each
species. Thus a high ORP score indicates that such a species would likely entail
greater consequences or greater probability of establishment than would a
species whose ORP was medium or low (that is, high > medium > low). Highrisk
species are Indian pythons, Northern and Southern African pythons, boa
constrictors, and yellow anacondas. High-risk species, if established in this
country, put larger portions of the U.S. mainland at risk, constitute a greater
ecological threat, or are more common in trade and commerce. Medium-risk species
were reticulated python, DeSchauensee's anaconda, green anaconda, and Beni
anaconda. These species constitute lesser threats in these areas, but still are
potentially serious threats. Because all nine species share characteristics
associated with greater risks, none was found to be a low risk.
For the purposes of this proposed rule, a hybrid is any progeny from any cross
involving parents of these nine constrictor snake species. Such progeny are
likely to possess the same biological characteristics of the parent species
that, through our analysis, leads us to find that they are injurious to humans
and to wildlife and wildlife resources of the United States.
Factors That Contribute to Injuriousness for Indian Python
Current Nonnative Occurrences
The Indian python has been reported as captured in many areas in Florida (see
Figure 4 in the draft environmental assessment). In South Florida, more than
1,300 live and dead Burmese pythons, including gravid females, have been removed
from in and around Everglades National Park in the last 10 years by authorized
agents, park staff, and park partners, indicating that they are already
established (National Park Service 2010). In the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico,
the Indian python has been collected or reported (eight individuals collected,
including a 3-m (10-ft) albino) from the municipality of Adjuntas, the northern
region of the island (Arecibo), and the eastern region of the island (Humacao)
(Saliva, pers. comm. 2009).
Potential Introduction and Spread
The likelihood of release or escape from captivity of Indian python is high as
evidenced by the releases and effects of those releases in Florida and Puerto
Rico. When Indian pythons escape captivity or are released into the wild, they
have survived and are likely to continue to survive and become established with
or without reproduction. For example, in the past 10 years, more than 1,300
Burmese pythons have been removed from Everglades National Park and vicinity
(National Park Service 2010) alone and others have been captured from other
natural areas on the west side of South Florida, the Florida Keys (Higgins,
pers. comm. 2009), and farther up the peninsula, including Sarasota and Indian
River County (Lowman, pers. comm. 2009; Dangerfield, pers. comm. 2010).
Moreover, released Indian pythons would likely spread to areas of the United
States with a suitable climate. These areas were determined in the risk
assessment (Reed and Rodda 2009) for all nine constrictor snakes by comparing
the type of climate the species inhabited in their native ranges to areas of
similar climate in the United States (climate matching). Due to the wide
rainfall tolerance and extensive semi-temperate range of Indian python, large
areas of the southern United States mainland appear to have a climate suitable
for survival of this species. Areas of the United States that are climatically
matched at present include along the coasts and across the south from Delaware
to Oregon, as well as most of California, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana,
Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and South and North Carolina. In
addition to these areas of the U.S. mainland, the territories of Guam, Northern
Mariana Islands, American Samoa, Virgin Islands, and Puerto Rico appear to have
suitable climate. Areas of the State of Hawaii with elevations under about 2,500
m (8,202 ft) would also appear to be climatically suitable. Indian pythons are
highly likely to spread and become established in the wild due to common traits
shared by the giant constrictors, including large size, habitat generalist,
tolerance of urbanization, high reproductive potential, long distance disperser,
early maturation, rapid growth, longevity, and sit and wait style of predation.
Potential Impacts to Native Species (including Threatened and Endangered
Species)
As discussed above under Biology, the Indian python grows to lengths greater
than 7 m (23 ft) and can weigh up to 90 kg (200 lbs). This is longer than any
native terrestrial predator (including bears) in the United States and its
territories and heavier than most native predators (including many bears).
American black bears (Ursus americanus) vary in size depending on sex, food
availability and quality, and other factors. Male black bears can grow to more
than six feet long and weigh up to 295 kg (650 lbs); females rarely reach that
length and do not weigh more than 79 kg (175 lbs) (Smithsonian Institution
2010). Among the largest of the native predators of the Southeast is the
American alligator (Alligator mississippiensis). The average length for an adult
female American alligator is 2.6 m (8.2 ft), and the average length for a male
is 3.4 m (11.2 ft) (Smithsonian Institution 2010).
In comparison with the Indian python, the largest snake native to North America
is the indigo snake (Drymarchon corais), attaining a size of about 2.5 m (8 ft)
(Monroe and Monroe 1968). A subspecies of the indigo snake is the eastern indigo
snake (D. corais couperi), which grows to a similar maximum length. The eastern
indigo snake inhabits Georgia and Florida and is listed as federally threatened
by the Service.
Unlike prey species in the Indian python's native range, none of our native
species has evolved defenses to avoid predation by such a large snake. Thus,
naive native wildlife anywhere in the United States would be very
likely to fall prey to Indian pythons (or any of the other eight constrictor
snakes). At all life stages, Indian pythons can and will compete for food with
native species; in other words, baby pythons will eat small prey, and the size
of their prey will increase as they grow. Based on an analysis of their diets in
Florida, Indian pythons, once introduced and established, are likely to
outcompete native predators (such as the federally listed Florida panther,
eastern indigo snake, native boas, hawks), feeding on the same prey and thereby
reducing the supply of prey for the native predators. Indian pythons are
generalist predators that consume a wide variety of mammal and bird species, as
well as reptiles, amphibians, and occasionally fish. This constrictor can easily
adapt to prey on novel wildlife (species that they are not familiar with), and
they need no special adaptations to capture and consume them. Pythons in Florida
have consumed prey as large as white-tailed deer and adult American alligators.
Three federally endangered Key Largo woodrats (Neotoma floridana smalli) were
consumed by a Burmese python in the Florida Keys in 2007. The extremely small
number of remaining Key Largo woodrats suggests that the current status of the
species is precarious (USFWS 2008); this means that a new predator that has been
confirmed to prey on the endangered woodrats is a serious threat to the
continued existence of the species.
The United States, particularly the Southeast, has one of the most diverse
faunal communities that are potentially vulnerable to predation by the Indian
python. Juveniles of these giant constrictors will climb to remove prey from
bird nests and capture perching or sleeping birds. Most of the South has
suitable climate and habitat for Indian pythons. The greatest biological impact
of an introduced predator, such as the Indian python, is the likely loss of
imperiled native species. Based on the food habits and habitat preferences of
the Indian python in its native range, the species is likely to invade the
habitat, prey on, and further threaten most of the federally threatened or
endangered fauna in climate-suitable areas of the United States. Indian pythons
are also likely to threaten numerous other potential candidates for Federal
protection. Candidate species are plants and animals for which the Service has
sufficient information on their biological status and threats to propose them as
endangered or threatened under the Endangered Species Act, but for which
development of a proposed listing regulation is precluded by other higher
priority listing activities. For example, the current candidate list includes
several bat species that inhabit the Indian python's climate-matched regions.
The draft environmental assessment includes lists of species that are federally
threatened or endangered in climate-suitable States and territories, such as
Florida, Hawaii, Guam, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands. These lists include
only the species of the sizes and types that would be expected to be directly
affected by predation by Indian pythons and the other eight large constrictors.
For example, plants and marine species are excluded. In Florida, 14 bird
species, 15 mammals, and 2 reptiles that are threatened or endangered could be
preyed upon by Indian pythons or be outcompeted by them for prey. Hawaii has 32
bird species and one mammal that are threatened or endangered that would be at
risk of predation. Puerto Rico has eight bird species and eight reptile species
that are threatened or endangered that would be at risk of predation. The Virgin
Islands have one bird species and three reptiles that are threatened or
endangered that would be at risk of predation. Guam has six bird species and two
mammals that are threatened or endangered that would be at risk of predation.
According to the climate suitability maps (Reed and Rodda 2009), threatened and
endangered species from all of Florida, most of Hawaii, and all of Puerto Rico
would be at risk from the establishment of Indian pythons. While we did not
itemize the federally threatened and endangered species from California, Texas,
and other States, there are likely several hundred species in those and other
States that would be at risk from Indian pythons. In addition, we assume that
Guam, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and other territories would have suitable habitat
and climate to support Indian pythons, and these also have federally threatened
and endangered species that would be at risk if Indian pythons became
established.
The likelihood and magnitude of the effect on threatened and endangered species
is high. Indian pythons are thus highly likely to negatively affect threatened
and endangered birds and mammals, as well as unlisted native species.
Potential Impacts to Humans
The introduction or establishment of Indian pythons may have negative impacts on
humans primarily from the loss of native wildlife biodiversity, as discussed
above. These losses would affect the aesthetic, recreational, and economic
values currently provided by native wildlife and healthy ecosystems. Educational
values would also be diminished through the loss of biodiversity and ecosystem
health.
Human fatalities from nonvenomous snakes in the wild are rare, probably only a
few per year worldwide (Reed and Rodda 2009). However, although attacks on
people by Indian pythons are improbable, they are possible given the large size
that some individual snakes can reach.
Factors That Reduce or Remove Injuriousness for Indian Python
Control
No effective tools are currently available to detect and remove established
large constrictor populations. Traps with drift fences or barriers are the best
option, but their use on a large scale is prohibitively expensive, largely
because of the labor cost of baiting, checking, and maintaining the traps daily.
Additionally, some areas cannot be effectively trapped due to the expanse of the
area and type of terrain, the distribution of the target species, and the
effects on any nontarget species. While the Department of the Interior, the U.S.
Department of Agriculture's (USDA) Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
(APHIS), and State of Florida entities have conducted limited research on
control tools, there are currently no such tools available that would appear
adequate for eradication of an established population of large constrictor
snakes, such as the Indian python, once they have spread over a large area.
Efforts to eradicate the Indian python in Florida have become increasingly
intense as the species is reported in new locations across the State. Natural
resource management agencies are expending already-scarce resources to devise
methods to capture or otherwise control any large constrictor snake species.
These agencies recognize that control of large constrictor snakes (as major
predators) on lands that they manage is necessary to prevent the likely adverse
impacts to the ecosystems occupied by the invasive snakes.
The draft economic analysis for the nine constrictor snakes (USFWS January
2010), provides the following information about the expenditures for research
and eradication in Florida, primarily for Indian pythons, which provides some
indication of the efforts to date. The Service spent about $600,000 over a 3year
period (2007 to 2009) on python trap design, deployment, and education in the
Florida Keys to prevent the potential extinction of the endangered Key Largo
woodrat at Crocodile Lake National Wildlife Refuge. The South Florida Water
Management District spent $334,000 between 2005 and 2009 and anticipates
spending an additional $156,600 on research, salaries, and vehicles in the next
several years. An additional $300,000 will go for the assistance of USDA,
Wildlife Services (part of USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service). The
USDA Wildlife Research Center (Gainesville FL Field Station) has spent $15,800
from 2008 to 2009 on salaries, travel, and supplies. The USGS, in con

jscrick Mar 11, 2010 06:57 PM

I see a lot of very recent Rodda citations for justification. Nothing like having your own in-house yarn spinner come up with some documentation for referenced justification just in time for publication. I thought Rodda had already been discredited? In-house hack doesn't cut it with me.
It's hard to keep the bile down at this point!
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

natsamjosh Mar 11, 2010 09:53 PM

>>I see a lot of very recent Rodda citations for justification. Nothing like having your own in-house yarn spinner come up with some documentation for referenced justification just in time for publication. I thought Rodda had already been discredited? In-house hack doesn't cut it with me.
>>It's hard to keep the bile down at this point!
>>jsc
>>-----
>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer

John,

It's even more stomach turning considering our friendly neighborhood scientists haven't released the numbers on how many monitored Everglades pythons died during the recent cold snap or how many died in the SREL experiment. And it's common knowledge that a substantial number of feral pythons died during the cold snap in south Florida. This is a national disgrace, there should be an ethics investigation, imo.

brhaco Mar 11, 2010 11:40 PM

I know from another forum that the SREL scientists, at least, have promised to release their results before the decision process has run its course. Let's hope they honor that commitment, because there is NO WAY any of those SREL snakes are still alive, given the weather in SC this winter.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

natsamjosh Mar 12, 2010 10:45 AM

>>I know from another forum that the SREL scientists, at least, have promised to release their results before the decision process has run its course. Let's hope they honor that commitment, because there is NO WAY any of those SREL snakes are still alive, given the weather in SC this winter.
>>-----

I'll keep my opinion of the SREL study to myself, but the question is - why is the DOI even starting the process *before* results from a supposedly very relevant study that IT IS FUNDING (via USGS) are made public? Yeah, this is all about science...

http://www.aikenstandard.com/Local/0619SnakePit

"[the study] is being funded in a joint effort by SREL, Davidson, the University of Florida and the U.S. Geological Survey."

StephF Mar 12, 2010 08:46 PM

“It's even more stomach turning considering our friendly neighborhood scientists haven't released the numbers on how many monitored Everglades pythons died during the recent cold snap or how many died in the SREL experiment. And it's common knowledge that a substantial number of feral pythons died during the cold snap in south Florida. This is a national disgrace, there should be an ethics investigation, imo.”

Maybe they are still collecting data and evaluating it before they release the information.

Scott Hardin, the FWC's exotic species coordinator, said half of South Florida's python population might have died in the recent cold weather.

jscrick Mar 12, 2010 09:01 PM

Regardless of the reason, it makes no sense to put the cart before the horse.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

natsamjosh Mar 12, 2010 09:28 PM

>>
>>Maybe they are still collecting data and evaluating it before they release the information.
>>
>>Scott Hardin, the FWC's exotic species coordinator, said half of South Florida's python population might have died in the recent cold weather.

Hopefully I'm not being unclear, but you are completely missing the point. If the results are not in yet, then starting the process of getting the pythons listed under the Lacey Act is both unscientific and unethical, imo. The justification they've been using for the legislation is that burms can survive in areas north of south Florida, even as far north as Washington DC and Ohio. And on top of that, as you mentioned, it's common knowledge now that a large percentage of pythons died during the cold snap. So how can anyone justify the DOI starting the process without even having the results yet???

StephF Mar 12, 2010 09:51 PM

I'm not missing the point.

You asked why the opposition was silent on the attrition rate in the Everglades. I merely provided an example of public comment (i.e. not silence) from them on estimated numbers of pythons killed.

I am not convinced that this legislation will make it's way through the process (sausage factory?) as quickly as you seem to fear that it will. So, the cart isn't necessarily before the horse, IMO.

I am very curious to see what further study of the matter will yield.

What some of you may be missing is the fact that while air temperatures may drop below freezing, water temperatures remain relatively stable and change much more gradually. Also, temperatures at ground level and even just a few inches under leaf litter are also much more stable. So, while a cold snap might damage or kill biota in more exposed locations, plenty of organisms will survive.

These same mechanisms help prevent reptiles indigenous to more temperate climates from freezing every winter. I hibernate a number of Eastern box turtles outside every winter here in central VA, and have been monitoring temperatures in the hibernacula for a couple of winters now. While temperatures may drop in to the single digits, temperatures under just a few inches of leaves remain stable in the 40 F range.

I for one would like the opportunity to fully understand the issue before jumping to any conclusions.

jscrick Mar 12, 2010 10:10 PM

"am not convinced that this legislation will make it's way through the process (sausage factory?) as quickly as you seem to fear that it will. So, the cart isn't necessarily before the horse, IMO."

I don't think we are speaking of "Legislation" here. We are speaking of a regulatory rule change, if I'm not mistaken. There is a substantial difference between the two.

jsc

-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

StephF Mar 12, 2010 10:36 PM

That there is a 60 public comment period tells me that there is a process still to be navigated. The public comments are to be considered, which adds more time.The SREL study wraps up in June (a month after the public comment period ends).

I don't think that this will go through before the SREL study results are in.

StephF Mar 12, 2010 10:37 PM

s/b 60 *DAY* public comment period. Oops.

jscrick Mar 13, 2010 08:54 AM

My experience with regulations "comment periods" is that the regulations are a done deal by that time. No turning back. Minds made up.

The regulators simply use the the comments to their advantage to address issues in their favor that they hadn't previously considered. Comments are usually become gifts in favor of their position. Put to good use by their lawyers. Objections are either spun into benefits or dismissed as not applicable.

In other words, comments simply tie up a few loose ends or close a few loop holes not initially considered.

We'll see. My crystal ball hasn't been wrong yet. I'd sure love to be wrong on this one.

Does this mean I'll be keeping Ball Pythons to satisfy my Ophidian Obsession? lol Sure hope not.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Katrina Mar 14, 2010 10:29 AM

"My experience with regulations "comment periods" is that the regulations are a done deal by that time. No turning back. Minds made up."

In most cases, I would agree. I would keep sending in comments, though, and continue to contact my federal legislators to explain the issue and why we feel that public comments won't be taken seriously. And why the USGS report is so flawed.

Katrina

jscrick Mar 14, 2010 04:56 PM

I do agree with you. I'm not saying don't comment. Let me relate my own personal experience.

Last year there was this individual very outspoken on the forum, very anti-regulation of commercial harvest (especially the recent ban on commercial turtle harvest in my state). This guy was simply livid with the capitulation and complete abandonment of his position by what he thought were his peers.

Well, this unhappy person got in touch with the man in charge of writing the new regulations banning the commercial harvest of turtles in our state. That man in charge of the new regulations, did in fact tell my unhappy friend that I was one of the ones that contributed the the plan that was put in place. He specifically mentioned my name.

This unhappy individual contacted me and asked me what was that all about? All I could tell him regarding my contribution, that I was aware of, were my comments in opposition to the pending ban. I was in fact, very much opposed to the new regulations.

So, how did I contribute? Still scratching my head trying to figure that one out. I'm at a loss. Other than the spin they put on my comments and the changes they made nullifying my objections, I have no Idea.

The unhappy person to whom I'm referring, is welcome to speak up and confirm this tale, if they care to. They do keep up with this forum, or I should say, they used to.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

StephF Mar 14, 2010 09:37 PM

Your comments were likely viewed as a contribution. Not unusual.

jscrick Mar 14, 2010 10:36 PM

It seemed to me, my name was among the list of collaborators, as if I were actively participating and crafting the rules as one of the authors.
That's just the impression I got.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

StephF Mar 14, 2010 10:53 PM

Try going 'straight to the source' instead of relying on hearsay, as it were. You might not have been mentioned at all by the regs. author, other than as a comment contributor.

brhaco Mar 15, 2010 09:03 AM

John-

You implied above that changes were made to nullify your objection-if that was true, then I can see why they said you made a contribution, and they could say the reg was crafted with "the input of hobbyists".....
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

jscrick Mar 15, 2010 09:18 AM

No, I stated it, did not imply anything. Just because I inadvertently laid gifts of factual error at their feet and they utilized the information to correct errors of fact and/or language on their part, only suggests my naiveté at the time and not that I had any desire to assist on behalf of their position.
I was only making reference to their total lack of understanding of the circumstances/subject and to their lack of qualification to adequately address the issue. Obviously that did not matter. A comprehensive constructive solution was not in their interest. It was all about political theater/expediency, as well as scapegoating an easy target. I now know better. My bad.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

jeffb Mar 13, 2010 02:11 AM

>>That there is a 60 public comment period tells me that there is a process still to be navigated. The public comments are to be considered, which adds more time.The SREL study wraps up in June (a month after the public comment period ends).
>>
>>I don't think that this will go through before the SREL study results are in.

I spoke to Whit Gibbons at SREL regarding the study and his answer is "We are currently conducting this research and results of our study will be released when they have undergone peer-review and have been accepted for publication in a scientific journal. We expect to have completed the goals of the project by June 2010 and plan to submit a paper describing our results for publication immediately after study completion."

There is no way that the paper can be written, peer reviewed, and accepted for publication in a scientific journal by June. There is no way to tell when specifically this data will be available and there is not even a way to guess accurately as there are variables involved beyond Whit's control. It may be months before it is peer reviewed and and accepted for publication.

While you are correct they may have made their decision, it may be too late in the process for the data to be considered.

It is unlikely that the USFWS will hold on their decision until some unknown date in the future. Of course the senate and house
are not beholden to these procedures and the current legislation
could be implemented at just about any time, beating the FWS regulatory effort to the punch.

You have to understand here that we are now on the back side of a 3 year FWS process that started 2 years ago. This isn't new
and there is not much of the process left to work through.

As I explained to Whit this is the definition of the phrase "results being academic" as by the time his study data is ready from our perspective the point may be moot.

jeffb Mar 13, 2010 02:18 AM

Had SREL started their 1 year study in 2008 when this was first proposed it would have missed the great freeze of winter 2009/2010 and the study would not have reflected it's impact in it's data.

StephF Mar 13, 2010 10:19 AM

After reading through the draft I was encouraged to see that, whether one agrees with the content and conclusions or not, an effort was made to evaluate the economic impact on the reptile trade.

Homework was done, in other words.

jscrick Mar 13, 2010 04:35 PM

"These same mechanisms help prevent reptiles indigenous to more temperate climates from freezing every winter. I hibernate a number of Eastern box turtles outside every winter here in central VA, and have been monitoring temperatures in the hibernacula for a couple of winters now. While temperatures may drop in to the single digits, temperatures under just a few inches of leaves remain stable in the 40 F range."

According to you, you are just now learning what most of us [on here] have known for 30, 40, or more years. What's your point? Are you some sort of Jr. Ranger Rick or something? Your point of view suggests (rather lamely) sympathy to the regulators' agenda? What's that all about? Are you idealistic and naive, or are you one of them? I'm going to guess some academic wanna-be.

jsc

-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

TammyJoseph Mar 13, 2010 05:14 PM

Haha..
I wasn't going to say anything to that post, but now that you bring it up..
I don't know why native Eastern box turtles are being compared to non-native snakes that don't even hibernate? Especially since, depending on the species of box turtle, they can live in areas past Massachusetts...
And I agree with you John, these post sound sympathetic to the AR agendas...

Tammy

StephF Mar 13, 2010 06:53 PM

And who says that the snakes in question *won't* hibernate? It's an adaptation, after all, right?

Funny how you mistrust anyone who has even the slightest appearance of not fully agreeing with you.

Eimon Mar 13, 2010 08:02 PM

"Funny how you mistrust anyone who has even the slightest appearance of not fully agreeing with you."

No, not at all. It's more like- "Funny how you dismiss anyone who has the strongest appearance of being a nit wit." Hummm....
actually makes prefect sense.

jscrick Mar 13, 2010 09:42 PM

I DID say that right here not long ago. I will repeat...

Tropical reptiles do not recognize the environmental cues encouraging/initiating hibernation as do temperate reptiles.

Any micro niche affording temporary safety would just be a matter of coincidence.

Tropical species would not have any established "hibernacula", either.

It is also likely any python that found itself in too cold a water for any length of time would drown. I would be interested to learn how many post freeze "found" pythons came floating up, if any.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

TammyJoseph Mar 13, 2010 09:51 PM

Well stated

TammyJoseph Mar 13, 2010 09:51 PM

Wow... do you know anything about evolution???
A species cannot adapt in a couple decades... they cannot say... hmm it's cold, I should hibernate.. Haha.. what you are saying is ridiculous

jscrick Mar 13, 2010 10:30 PM

What about all those turtles now using crosswalks and obeying the "Walk" "Don't Walk" signals?
Not nearly as many jaywalking turtles as there uses to be, huh!
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

TammyJoseph Mar 14, 2010 01:34 AM

I don't even know how to convey, in text, the laughter this post brought me. haha.. Thank you though, it was one of the highlights of my day, and certainly just as ridiculous as some people are stating as fact

Tammy

natsamjosh Mar 13, 2010 10:40 PM

>>Wow... do you know anything about evolution???
>>A species cannot adapt in a couple decades... they cannot say... hmm it's cold, I should hibernate.. Haha.. what you are saying is ridiculous

Sure it's ridiculous. Considering that iguanas were falling out of trees, loads of tropical fish were floating dead to the surface and StephF her/himself cited a FWC official who claimed that at least 1/2 of the pythons died in the Everglades, it's completely ridiculous. But what hasn't been ridiculous about this anti-reptile crusade? The problem is most people don't like snakes and our gov't agencies don't have any checks and balances; so junk science gets a free pass. Snakes/reptiles are an easy target.

Katrina Mar 14, 2010 10:53 AM

>>And who says that the snakes in question *won't* hibernate? It's an adaptation, after all, right?
>>
>>Funny how you mistrust anyone who has even the slightest appearance of not fully agreeing with you.

Steph,

I know you know your box turtles, but these are a completely different species with a completely different set of adaptations. Boa constrictors WON'T hibernate - if they did they'd already have migrated from Mexico to much of Texas by now - and there were no boa constrictors in Central Texas when I was a kid. I'll admit I don't know much about the big snakes (or much about snakes), but I do know that Burmese python keepers live in fear of low temperatures, and a few have told me that letting a large Burm sit in lower than ideal temps for any length of time is asking for pneumonia. Yeah, a lot of snakes need a cool down peroid to reproduce, but "cool down" is not the same as hibernation. These snakes just don't hibernate - I wouldn't want to risk my giant Mexican musk with hibernation, so I doubt it could be done with anacondas and boa constrictors. 40F soil temperatures might not kill a snake (assuming it had the instinct to burrow down), but a few days of 40F degrees at the snake's level would likely be enough to induce immune problems - drastically increasing risk from infection. (I know I'm sounding like the USGS authors with that comment, but if they can do it, so can I!) Plus, at 40F, a snake is at greater risk from predation. While the native reptiles have probably long since burrowed out of sight, a 40F Burmese is going to be a Domino's delivery special to a raccoon, opposum, weasel, rat, or shrew - some of those predators hibernate, and some don't.

StephF Mar 14, 2010 12:59 PM

Hey Katrina,

Point taken, but I for one won't assume that these snakes can't or won't adapt.

While it's certainly useful to base opinions on existing information, there are other considerations at work, not the least of which is the extensive man-made environment in this country that exotics can utilize to their advantage.

While large constrictors may thrive in comparatively narrow range of circumstances in their natural habitat, we have infrastructure here that may well provide them with the means to survive and possibly even thrive here too.

Be skeptical but open to discovery.

Katrina Mar 14, 2010 02:11 PM

I still say if it was possible, there would be a large number of boa constrictors in TX by now. Not just from natural distribution of native wild animals over time, but also from released pets. Boa constrictors are the most common of the "big nine" in the pet trade IMO, and I've seen a lot of idiots that owned them - I'm not saying that boa owners are idiots, just that lots of the ones I've met are. I know a lot of good snake keepers and breeders, but you're average person walking into a pet store to buy a boa? Not so good - and that's who's more likely to let a snake get loose or let it go. Just going by personal observation.

Plus, Steph, have you read the whole USGS report? It's not science IMO (and I have a BS in biology and work in biotech). The January Bulletin of the Chigaco Herp Society had an interesting article on it.

Katrina

>>Hey Katrina,
>>
>>Point taken, but I for one won't assume that these snakes can't or won't adapt.
>>
>>While it's certainly useful to base opinions on existing information, there are other considerations at work, not the least of which is the extensive man-made environment in this country that exotics can utilize to their advantage.
>>
>>While large constrictors may thrive in comparatively narrow range of circumstances in their natural habitat, we have infrastructure here that may well provide them with the means to survive and possibly even thrive here too.
>>
>>Be skeptical but open to discovery.

StephF Mar 14, 2010 02:23 PM

Yes, I've read the report.

Thanks!

jscrick Mar 14, 2010 05:03 PM

Northern VA, huh? That's where all the Federal Employees live. Hmmm???...
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Katrina Mar 14, 2010 08:27 PM

Can we keep things civil here?

Katrina

jscrick Mar 14, 2010 09:23 PM

If I have been rude or uncivil, I apologize. That was not my intent.

From the poster's comments, tone, and stated location; I honestly believe this person may be closer to the topic under discussion than they care to admit.

This person is indeed entitled to their own opinions. I've already replied to earlier posts.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I apologize for jumping to conclusions. My Bad.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

StephF Mar 14, 2010 09:34 PM

Read again. Central Virginia. Not Northern Virginia.

jscrick Mar 14, 2010 10:03 PM

It was a mistake on my part. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I was wrong in my assumptions. Got a bit carried away with myself.

In the future, I will do my best to maintain a more dignified presence on this forum.

Don't know if it will happen, but I will try. Seriously, I was wrong here and I know it.

Thanks,

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

StephF Mar 14, 2010 10:31 PM

Apology excepted. Have a good one.

mavericksdad Mar 15, 2010 09:10 AM

...what the hell do you have to apologize for?...this lady comes in here to basically tell you all that the Burm problem is youre fault when its not and repeatedly tries to make you all look stupid...I say blast her till she leaves...no ones showing us any courtesy...maybe its time to stop being so nice...
-----
1.0 c.b.02' 7' Pastel Colombian Boa(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 6' Firebelly x Pastel boa "Betty Boa"
0.1 c.b. 07 5' Amazon Basin Redtail Boa Lola Boa
1.0 c.b. 05 6' Hypo Sonoran Gophersnake
1.0 c.b. 05'2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 wc Fl.Cornsnake "Iggy"
0.1 cb Okeetee Cornsnake "Bella"
1.0 wc Easteren Hognose Snake "Snape"

jscrick Mar 15, 2010 09:21 AM

I still stand by my belief that this person is a whole lot closer to the issue than they care to say. However, I do believe I got off topic and went in a direction not germane/beneficial to the discussion. For that, I admit my mistake and apologize.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

StephF Mar 15, 2010 10:30 AM

Actually, if anything I'm farther from the issue than you are.

I'm just trying to obtain a better understanding of the matter at hand. One of the mods. posted a bulletin about this on another forum (which I frequent more often), presumably to rally support for opposing regulation, and when I started to ask questions the mod. suggested I come here to ask.

So I did. I like to understand an issue as fully as possible before deciding for or against.

Thanks

jscrick Mar 15, 2010 05:28 PM

That is reassuring.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

busterlimes Mar 14, 2010 03:16 PM

guys... I guess I'm just not a python person (ANYMORE, mostly keep lizards) however I love the smaller species. about 8 years ago my first roommate and I were good friends and we had a nasty tiger retic male (beautiful specimen) and a few burms. we also had a few locales of boa. one time we had him out of his enclosure (he was around 13ft.) just to move to a new house but we had done it for soaking. a little too much handling (about 30 seconds total) was enough to make him so ticked him struck me in my right side near my kidney and I instantly went out. lights out, on the floor. I fractured a rib! my roommate and I were handling him together and he said the strike was amazing, but the point is it's an injurious animal! we knew this animal didn't like to be handled but sometimes you have no choice, we bought him as an adult from a breeder who told us, he hates everything. (we were 17, good call on his part!). most people aren't smart with these awesome animals like you all.

our burms and other snakes were amazing, his snakes he keeps are still amazing (same burms included). but I think these animals who are loose in the southeast NEED to be rounded up, and sent somewhere. euthanasia is a dirty word, but so is feral.

feral cats chase koalas out of their territorial trees in the outback, how would you like retics to do that to the few American Crocodile we have? not to mention all the other feral aussie species!!

I will not back a python ban, but i do back destroying these animals in the everglades and other areas. i don't need to read the report, i don't care. it's the responsible thing to do, snake handlers released them.

luhrsreptiles Mar 14, 2010 03:35 PM

We would do it in a heart beat but the fed's won't let us! Figure that one out
Michael

busterlimes Mar 15, 2010 01:06 AM

Ya, that's true, it's unfortunate that the politicians feel like this is a way of solving things. Some snakes make interesting displays. Those states which are tropical(ish) should maybe have less huge outdoor snake ranches. Im sure people on here will disagree with that but im not intending to wreck anyones livelihood. I just think that most large pythons and boids make bad pets, and even worse feral critters.

Idc if you have a snake, just keep it locked the hell up so it doesn't waste government time. I never have seen the fun in keeping a bunch of constrictors in drawers... i'm more an aquarium/lizard hobbyist so it's lost on me... but w/e floats your boat! i would vote in favor (if i was involved) of a ban of the largest species bc of personal experience, no red tail boa or ball python has ever threatened me but retic people boggle my mind. That is a baby-eating indian monster snake. idc how long it took you to breed the dwarf version it's mean as piss!

mavericksdad Mar 15, 2010 09:06 AM

...Indian Baby Eaters?..."huge outdoor snake ranches"?...what the hell?...go back to the lizard forums...
-----
1.0 c.b.02' 7' Pastel Colombian Boa(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 6' Firebelly x Pastel boa "Betty Boa"
0.1 c.b. 07 5' Amazon Basin Redtail Boa Lola Boa
1.0 c.b. 05 6' Hypo Sonoran Gophersnake
1.0 c.b. 05'2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 wc Fl.Cornsnake "Iggy"
0.1 cb Okeetee Cornsnake "Bella"
1.0 wc Easteren Hognose Snake "Snape"

busterlimes Mar 15, 2010 03:44 PM

as far as i knew the retic was the snake which was known to eat people occasionally, in India. I guess i was wrong about them eating babies...?

It doesn't matter if ppl here care about me not liking them dude, it's about the gov, and they apparently see a problem. Take it easy partner.

I will go back to the lizard forums snakedork, at least we don't keep our animals in drawers. and ya, the US has outdoor reptile ranches in tropical areas, i've seen large boids and pythons in outdoor enclosures. foolish way to add feral animals to our biome.

Calparsoni Mar 16, 2010 11:30 AM

I keep lizards. The lizards I keep actually occasionally eat people too although they are dead when the lizards eat them (usually I think). I also keep them outside in Fl. My cages have withstood three hurricanes for sure including a cat 3 hurricane that sat over my house for almost a week and took out half the pine trees on my 5 acre wooded lot. They have also stood up to a few other storms that I am unsure of as to whether they were hurricanes or tropical storms at the time (technicality issues). Point is unless my cages take a direct hit from an f-2 or larger tornado(did I mention the f-1 that jumped my house during one of the storms? Oh yeah I live in Paisley too...google paisley and tornados.) or a nuclear bomb my cages aren't going anywhere. Can you say the same about your fish tank set ups????
In Mark Andre Auliya's book "Taxonomy,Life History and Conservation of Giant Reptiles of West Kalimantan" (that's in Borneo mr. lizard keeper.) he does touch on human fatalities related to Retics. I know he mentions one for sure and possibly one other. I am not saying he is the final authority in the subject at all but I am sure if factual incidents were more common they would have been mentioned. He did mention a retic that was found with a small Asian sun bear in it's gut which would certainly demonstrate they capable of consuming a small child. I believe one of the specimens he found regurged a binturong which isn't exactly a small animal. The point is human predation by large snakes is actually quite rare.
Since you mentioned India in your post however (which actually is only marginally part of the retics range btw.They are much more common in indochina on the Malaysian peninsula and on the Islands of the Malay archipelligo.) I will give you these interesting statistics I came across yesterday. 72 children were killed by wolves (yes wolves.) in India between 1996 and 1998. Wolves are the ancestors of your precious fido. In modern times they have been considered one of the least dangerous predators out there from personal experience I would tend to agree and wolves in the western hemisphere have been considered to historically be less agressive than there old world counterparts, however they certainly have killed more people than large constrictors. fyi last week on the 8th we had our third wolf related fatality on the North American continent it happened in Alaska.

busterlimes Mar 16, 2010 04:37 PM

"I keep lizards. The lizards I keep actually occasionally eat people too although they are dead when the lizards eat them (usually I think). I also keep them outside in Fl." Stop that please. Large meat eating lizards like that should be kept away from people. Honestly. Like I've said I don't CARE if they make big carnivores illegal I believe it will gain more respect for the trade. No more dangerous animals, no more dangerous hobby. What is your reason for keeping these things outside? how environmentally irresponsible... sure I've kept box turtles outside but damn... go to the south they have rows of doghouses with lifting lids for their "stash" of snakes. Needs to be controlled since none of you can make a compromise with the AR groups.

"Can you say the same about your fish tank set ups????" No, You're right I would infect the Kansas prairie with saltwater fish. How awful.

Calparsoni Mar 16, 2010 08:38 PM

go to the south they have rows of doghouses with lifting lids for their "stash" of snakes

South where??? South America??? What you growin' in them there cornfields Dorothy? perhaps you should stop smokin' it.

I don't have to go to the south I live in the south and I have no idea of what in God's name you're talkin' about. People keeping snakes in dog houses???
Perhaps you're thinking of some of them mountain folk in the Carolinas you're selling that Kansas corn to, but likely not. Maybe that's southern kansas.
Oh yeah before you run around calling US environmentally irresponsible we still have our manatees and our gopher tortoises and the largest population of bald eagles in the lower 48 states as well as many other species that are much more well represented here in Fl. than they are in the rest of the country, and contrary to what you think alot of us here do care about our environment much more than animal planet would leave you to believe.
So tell me dorothy how are them massive herds of Bison doing that are roaming through your pesticide laden cornfields.

busterlimes Mar 17, 2010 12:40 AM

Ya... maybe I'd like to keep what happened to the bison (cowboys) from happening in the everglades. Also, most of my neighbors fields are soy.

I can just see you all high fiving, got that corn fed jayhawk [bleep]!

Ya, you sure did. Say hello to the bill flying on through.

brhaco Mar 14, 2010 02:34 PM

In that case, you're just simply wrong. Sorry, but several knowledgeable persons, including at least a couple biologists, have told you as much.

You're utilizing the same basic "logic" the Catholic Church used with Galileo.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

jscrick Mar 14, 2010 04:59 PM

Yeah, I saw one just the other day on the side of the road with its spur out, trying to hitch a ride.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

StephF Mar 13, 2010 06:46 PM

I'm pointing out the obvious fact that reptiles can and do find cover in order to survive cold weather. They adapt. They evolve.

To assume that the Big Nine couldn't or wouldn't do the same could well prove to be a BIG mistake.

Instead of snarking at people who may or may not have a different perspective or point of view from your own, we'd probably all be better served if you'd shed your own bias.

Have a nice day.

brhaco Mar 13, 2010 08:22 PM

In that case why don't we see, say, cottonmouths in Ontario? Or indigo snakes in Ohio? After all, it's only an adaptation, right?

The truth is that, while it's true that any species/family has a certain amount of genetic plasticity, there are definite limits-both in the degree to which they can adapt to new environments, and (more important in this case), the TIME (number of generations) it would take to achieve that degree of adaptation (if possible at all).

The degree of adaptation to severe winter climates which you are suggesting is highly unlikely in a tropical reptile of any kind-particularly a boid of such great body size. In the unlikely event it WERE possible, we are talking a minimum of hundreds or thousands of generations.

The fact that we saw about 50% mortality in the S. Florida population, (when exposed to low temperatures which, while severe for that area, are relatively commonplace just a couple hundred miles north),indicates that the northern limit for the species will likely fall somewhere in the southern half of peninsular Florida.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

StephF Mar 14, 2010 10:00 PM

You make some valid points, however, I would like to make the observation that the climates along the coastal south aren't that severe. Take a look at a plant hardiness zone map sometime, and you can see what I mean.

And, since you're using cottonmouths as an example, their range extends up in to Virginia into southern Chesterfield County.

I'm open to possibilities.

luhrsreptiles Mar 14, 2010 11:02 PM

Look, everyone is way off subject. The Fed’s are talking about big snakes and that they can survive here. I have been in over 30 countries collecting snakes and I can tell you point of fact that there is no way any of the listed snakes can survive any farther north than they are right now. The people who are espousing this are either doing drugs big time or very stupid, your choice.
Michael Luhrs

jscrick Mar 13, 2010 09:21 PM

Come on StephF. Come on out from behind the curtain. Let's see your credentials. Where's your portfolio? Resume? Accomplishments? Show us the courage of your conviction.
You interest me. I want to know more.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

StephF Mar 14, 2010 09:39 PM

I don't need any "credentials" in order to have a point of view or an opinion.

Eimon Mar 15, 2010 03:32 AM

Absolutely true. You've done an outstanding job proving that very point.

TammyJoseph Mar 13, 2010 09:55 PM

Go back to the PETA/HSUS forums, your ridiculous ideas are more welcome there.
Like I said above, you obviously know not a thing when it comes to evolution. It doesn't happen in one generation, and I'm not about to give some animal rights gal a free course in it, when I've actually been to college.

Mcdowelli76 Mar 13, 2010 11:18 PM

A good study was done by Dave and Tracy Barker called "will they come in out of the cold". It was one of the main reasons the argument of constrictors not being able to survive outside of So. Florida(if there even). If you go to the VPI website you can download it for free. I would recommend it to anyone interested in the subject.

brhaco Mar 12, 2010 05:10 PM

That would only work if they had already filed some kind of report, but had not released it to the public.

As researchers, they have a perfect right to take as long as they deem necessary to complete their research, write it up, and then submit it to a peer-reviewed publication, or to their agency. If that report was then withheld from the public, that would be the time to file a FOI request.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

jscrick Mar 12, 2010 05:21 PM

The simple fact that the results of their own studies on this subject are not in, is legitimate reason enough for a delay, in the least.

That should be one of the points made in every person's submitted comments.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

StephF Mar 12, 2010 09:03 PM

The study isn't even completed yet. It is a year long study that started in June 2009. Which means that it will end in a few more months.

brhaco Mar 12, 2010 11:12 PM

If you mean the SC SREL study, then it's over if all the pythons are dead, regardless of the original intended duration.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

StephF Mar 13, 2010 12:26 PM

Well, we don't know if the animals are dead or alive so we'll have to wait for the results.

It doesn't behoove the scientists at SREL to falsify any data: that would be counter productive in the extreme.

TammyJoseph Mar 13, 2010 02:14 PM

Has anyone else wondered why DeSchauensee’s anaconda is on this list? Has anyone ever heard of them existing in the US? I know there's only been like 102 DeSchauensee's ever found on record.

Also, Beni Anacondas and P. natalensis??? I'm just wondering why they see these snakes as a threat, when even in their own report, it states that they don't know if any of these three snakes are being imported (All three are already on CITIES Appendix II), and they clearly state that NONE of these three species have been reported in the wild, in the US. They state in the federal register that they "exhibit many of the same biological characteristics as the previous five species that pose a risk of establishment and negative effects in the United States."

Also, just because an animal can survive in an area of the US, because it is similar to its native land is obsurd. On this basis they could pretty much ban everything, because the US is made up of almost every kind of climate and habitat you could think of.

"The USGS risk assessment used a method called ``climate matching'' to estimate those areas of the United States exhibiting climates similar to those experienced by the species in their respective native ranges (Reed and Rodda 2009)."

Below is what the federal register stated about the above 3 species... It's just one more thing that shows us that they are not basing this on science.

"DeSchauensee's anaconda is known from a small number of
specimens and has a limited range in northeast South America. Although not well studied, DeSchauensee's anaconda apparently prefers swampy habitats that may be seasonally flooded. DeSchauensee's anaconda is known from only a few localities in northeast South America, and its known climate range is accordingly very small. While the occupied range
exhibits moderate variation in precipitation across the year, annual temperatures tend to range between 25 oC (77 oF) and 30 oC (86 oF). Whether the species could tolerate greater climatic variation is unknown."

"The Beni anaconda is a recently described and poorly known anaconda closely related to the green anaconda (Reed and Rodda 2009)."

"Little is known about Southern African pythons."

Tammy

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/2010-4956.htm

StephF Mar 13, 2010 07:02 PM

The answers are in the link. Read thoroughly.

TammyJoseph Mar 13, 2010 09:46 PM

Oh really?????
Why don't you quote where the answers are, because I've read the whole thing and they aren't in there. Don't say things without anything to back them up.

StephF Mar 14, 2010 10:03 PM

No, I won't quote it. I'm not here to do anyone's reading for them.
If you read the text thoroughly you might find that you won't have to ask so many questions.

TammyJoseph Mar 15, 2010 01:13 AM

Well, if you have nothing to back up anything you are saying, then why should anyone listen to you? Don't be so defensive if you think you are so right?

StephF Mar 15, 2010 11:08 AM

Wow. What are you talking about?

Again: the answers to your questions are in the text to which you provided a link. I don't really feel a need to add to the 'backup' that you've already provided.

Thanks.

luhrsreptiles Mar 13, 2010 07:15 PM

What Reed and Rodda are not telling anyone is that their data is made up. The areas in Pakistan where the Burmese exist and where they have temperature data are not one and the same. Even if the two locals are within a few miles of each other, there can be 5000 to 7000 feet difference in elevation. Before this is over I hope we can expose these two individuals for the ignorant jerks they are. These two people because of their connection to the island of Guam and the work they are doing there has opened them up for a personal RICO lawsuit. They had better believe that there are a few of us pooling our money to break both of them just as it was done to the two Forestry people here in California a few years ago.
Michael Luhrs

TammyJoseph Mar 13, 2010 09:49 PM

I agree...
Everything they are stating from them is ridiculous... they can fool the common person into believing their argument.. but not us. They need to be brought into the light... everything they are basing this off of is wrong.
Tammy

luhrsreptiles Mar 13, 2010 10:38 PM

They have sold their soul for the all mighty buck. USGS keeps getting work from the Government of Guam as long as these guys continue to lie. These guys have destroyed any credibly they might have had and will never work for anyone else again. A few of us are going to make sure that their government jobs don’t last a lot longer and we will break them financially.Hopefully in a few years they will be making their living handing out towels in some bus station bathroom.
Michael Luhrs

jscrick Mar 14, 2010 08:13 AM

You go, Michael...our very own Pit Bull.
Look out AR folks, this boy's got teeth.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

luhrsreptiles Mar 14, 2010 11:35 AM

John
The first thing they have to understand about me is I’m a Vietnam Vet with a low tolerance for stupid people especially if they are in the government. I don’t play well with people who make excuses or try to defend taking my rights away. They need to ask California Fish & Game what happened back in the mid 70’s. I was young, naive and didn’t a lot of money. California F&G Decided they could run all over us and ban everything. When it was over after 3 years in the courts, the head jerk in the Department was sent away to count deer pellets in North Eastern California from what I’ve been told and it took Fish & Game more than 10 years before they felt up trying us again and they lost very badly that time. That’s why they have waited 20 more years before trying again. The first time we won in all the lower courts but lost in the California Supreme Court which was a Court so liberal that the Chief Justice by the name of Rose Bird was removed from the court a couple of years later, one of the few if not the only time that’s ever happened. The second time we knew a lot more about the law and we had a lot more money and hired the right people and like I said it took them 20 more years to get their courage up again. Well I have 20 times more money than I did 20 years ago and I understand the law a lot better now. California F&G is about to be hit with about 20 freedom of information act requests just to start. I already know the answers to a lot of them but they don’t know which ones I know. If they try to hid anything or lie, chances are I’ll know, and you just know how understanding I’ll be with that. I also understand that there will be a web site up in the near future giving the names and address of the AR people the light they deserve.
Michael Luhrs

jscrick Mar 14, 2010 05:19 PM

Michael, We have spoken before. We have had previous dealings with one another. I believe you to be a man of your word. You may or may not remember me. My comment was meant to be taken seriously.

You have my full support. I'm in complete agreement. We are of the same generation. I share your sentiments regarding idiots and bureaucrats. My tolerance level is rather short, as well.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

luhrsreptiles Mar 14, 2010 05:32 PM

John
I remember you quite well and so as not to "compromise' you, how is the tree doing I hope mr. Rodda is listening, It's time for him think about his career choices because once this thing is started I will not stop.
Michael Luhrs

jscrick Mar 14, 2010 06:16 PM

You trying to get me in trouble with the agriculture people, or what? lol
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Mcdowelli76 Mar 13, 2010 11:26 PM

The list itself is faulty when you realize while they added rare subspecies of Anaconda to the list, It does not include all of the big five python species. I won't name them and don't want the names printed ,but that shows how flawed the list is. I repeat if you know the species I mean good for you but do not let the cat out of the bag.

boidsonly Mar 14, 2010 04:04 PM

RE: the USFWS 60 day notice. By law they have to do this; this is simply a way of mitigating any repercussions in their direction.

Unfortunately, there are no check and balance w/ the USFWS. They have the freedom to make the rules regardless of how poor the "scientific reports" are that they will ultimately base their decisions on.
Ask all the people that have applied for CITES I permits to move animals across state lines (legally) and have them denied, or the innumerable disapprovals of requests to import CITES I boids in to the US due to genetic bottlenecking/danger of extinction.
We all know someone who has been disapproved after the $100 permit fee and a 15 month delay (90 days according to the USFWS site) simply to receive a negative response from the USFWS.
Even our Zoos have to request permits to widen the gene pool of "endangered" species of boids (the Jamaican Boa is a case in point). Some of this blame lies on the Zoos for not doing anything with the boids they now have in their care but the ultimate undoing/extinction of many of the endangered species can be placed squarely on the shoulders of the USFWS due to their draconian approval process/procedures and undue influence from PETA/SPCA/PACs.
Bottom line is, and I am not a defeatist by any measure, sell your animals of concern and start over with your collections or business. Sad but true.
Then the USFWS/PETA/SPCA/PACs will come after your other snakes, turtles, salamanders, frogs, toads, lizards, birds, etc.
And then your dogs and cats...
What we really need are lawyers (and I never thought I would utter these words) that have R.O.C. themselves and are willing to take on the issue for gratis/pro bono and sue the USFWS to tie up the ruling/stop the stupidity.
Just my 2 cents.

Best regards,
Jeff Murray
-----
Jeff Murray
www.boa-subspecies.com

Katrina Mar 14, 2010 08:35 PM

Can't CITES I animals move across state lines so long as it's NOT for commercialization? So long as there's no money changing hands?

I realize that being added to the injurious species list is different than being listed as CITES I.

Katrina

WSTREPS Mar 14, 2010 09:09 PM

The cites listing makes no difference when it comes to interstate transactions, its fine to buy, sell, etc., cites appendix 1 animals across state lines. A common example would be , Argentine Boa Constrictor (Boa constrictor occidentalis). Its when the animal appears under the US Endangered Species Act that the issues come up. The cites listing only affects International trade, not trade with in the country of origin. Captive bred animals that are listed as appendix 1 animals get reassigned as appendix 2.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

luhrsreptiles Mar 14, 2010 11:24 PM

Believe me there will be lawsuits against the US F&WS but where we can really damage these people is personal lawsuits. Rodda is a great example. USGS who he’s working for is doing all the work on the island of Guam and one of the people that are backing this is their representative to the House of Representatives. Under RICO if it can be shown that you lied or offered false statements and made money because of it, you are guilty of racketeering. Now USGS is probably just as guilty as Rodda but they have lots of money and can drag it out for years but if your sue Rodda personally then he gets to pick up the tab.
A developer did this to two forestry people out here a few years ago that he said held up a big project because of their personal views by using junk science. By the time anyone stepped in to help these people they were broke.
Michael Luhrs

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