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Alternate Prey....

Jlassiter Mar 11, 2010 07:36 PM

Is a varied diet ideal?

How many here use chicks or quail to feed their kingsnakes?

Do you feed them these solely or do you feed mice and rats as well?

I just purchased chicks for the first time. I fed some today and a lot of my kingsnakes really enjoyed the meal.......

I have had good success feeding f/t mice only, but I wonder if my snakes can thrive better with such a variety.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Replies (29)

bluerosy Mar 11, 2010 08:10 PM

I use 90% Chicks and 10% adult mice for my adult snakes.

Chicks smell less than the rodents and a chick only costs 12 cents each.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Jlassiter Mar 11, 2010 08:23 PM

>>I use 90% Chicks and 10% adult mice for my adult snakes.
>>
>>Chicks smell less than the rodents and a chick only costs 12 cents each.

So....You doing that because your a cheapskate and have lots to feed or does it bring any more nutritional value to your snakes?

BTW....I was just kidding with the initial statement....LOL

I just had two snakes swallow the chicks almost all the way but could not get the hips past their jaws so they spit them out......These are full grown thayeri....They have eaten many rat pups and large adult mice.....I guess the hips of the chicks are too big for some of my snakes.....I got 1 to 3 day old chicks...I guess they don't get much smaller than that......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Bluerosy Mar 11, 2010 09:05 PM

So....You doing that because your a cheapskate and have lots to feed or does it bring any more nutritional value to your snakes

#1 price -I am a cheapskate

#2 Lots to feed- Again, I am a cheapskate

#3 The smell-a mouse that is left uneaten on a hot summer day will decompose and stink like hell. A chick won't

#4 Nutritional value- chicken is cleaner, leaner and.. well , it keeps their cholesterol level down.

And it's cheaper!!!!

here is a tip. With my smaller snakes i start feeding chick heads by yankin off the heads.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

BobS Mar 11, 2010 09:25 PM

np

Bluerosy Mar 12, 2010 07:44 AM

Sorry about the gross description. But i was seriois about the chick heads. That is a great way to start smaller snakes on chicks. Maybe I don't "yank" the heads off but they are cut off. The remains are fed to the larger snakes. This can also really cut down on expenses and some finicky snakes prefer the chikck heads.

Or you can just feed fuzzies at .40 cents a pop. It's your money.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

FR Mar 12, 2010 12:21 PM

Ok, You are a real weirdo. hahahahahahahahahaha but good on you, how dull would this world be without folks like you.

But I do disagree with you mice statement. I like you have been around and done that.

In the case of mice, I have fed nothing but mice and snakes lived a super healthy productive life to over 35 years. And that includes longterm double and triple clutching.

In other areas of animal husbandry, fat in the diet to a point is a VERY GOOD thing. For instance mice. In cold temps, female mice fail on a low fat diet. So here they need a higher fat content in their food. On the otherhand, if those same mice are kept in warmer conditions, they require a lower fat content in their food. The reason is, they do not need to expend as much energy to keep warm and boy do mice create heat.

With snakes, if you keep them with recipe temps, then fat in the diet is stored as fat in the snake and that is not a good thing. But if you allow the snakes to pick the temps THEY WANT, then they will not store that excess energy as fat, but instead use it for growth and reproduction.

Of course I am talking about normal mice, not big fat obese old breeders.

Back to this thread, mice solely has proven to be as good a diet thats ever been used with colubrids. But of course there is nothing wrong with varying the diet for both your and your animals enjoyment. But is it better?????

As a funny example, when I was very young and poor, I bought a baby blairs, I had no money for mice, and I was always in the field, so I raised that blairs on lizards, crappy old parasite infected wild lizards. That Blairs, grew to be the nicest prettyest, largest blairs I have ever seen. If I remember correctly, something like 55 inches. He was named Arnold, for obvious reasons, huge and muscular. I do have pics somewhere. Again, on a diet of lizards, lots and lots of wild lizards.

Your results do speak for themselves, so chicks are not harmful, or poor.

Also, I an even younger poorer kid, I raised a burm on cockles(male chicks) which were FREE at a hatchery. They threw away tens of thousands of cockles a day. Cheers

Bluerosy Mar 12, 2010 01:31 PM

Well now i am not sure. Chickens and mice seem to be on a similar lever when compared on this chart.

Or maybe i don't know how to read this chart and if it refers to adult chickens or baby chicks?

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Bluerosy Mar 12, 2010 01:36 PM

Not sure how acurate this is, or if it even proves anything but it says "USDA GOVERNMENT ZOO" on it so it must be correct.


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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

FR Mar 12, 2010 03:17 PM

I would rather do it like WE do. See how it works. Its kinda easy.

The problem with those charts is, there is not known levels that a kingsnake actually requires. So you will have a hard time matching up a known to an unknown, they if the unknown is on a sliding scale.

So you need to factor in that reptiles have totally different requirements at different temps and different ages, and different sexes. And heck, we cannot even figure out what those temps are because they keep moving. Oh my, my head is spinning.

So let us do it the hard way, your snakes look great, kinda fat(WOOOOOhahahahahahaha) but really healthy and they seem to make all manner of offspring, so it must work.

Also, I am cheaper then you. I use mice and they only cost 6 1/2 cents each. And chicks make toooooo much noise. Specially when you try to flush them down the toilet, round and round, peep peep peep. Whoooooosh Ok that was sick. Cheers

BobS Mar 12, 2010 01:16 PM

np

willstill Mar 12, 2010 12:17 PM

I feed my adult easterns mostly chicks, for the exact same reasons. They are cheap and nutritious, and they aren't quite a smelly when they get buried and left in the cage for a couple of days. However, they do have the one drawback of making a smellier stool than mice. After a good meal of chicks, there is never a debate on whether or not to go on poop patrol.

Will

ZFelicien Mar 11, 2010 11:29 PM

I use various prey items... some snakes get "special diets" during certain periods of time.

-Mice
-Rats (pups and weanlings)
-Gerbils
-Hamsters
-Chicks (I hate the way these smell wen they exit... but they are good 4 a females after they lay)

As far as nutritional value I think chicks are the lowest on that list, so I don't make it a main source of nutrition.

So to answer your question, i think there is a benefit to a varied diet... i see better gains when i switch it up from time to time... I can't do it all the time due to changes in cost and availability but i try to "spice it up" when i have the means to do so.

~Z

Bluerosy Mar 12, 2010 07:40 AM

As far as nutritional value I think chicks are the lowest on that list, so I don't make it a main source of nutrition.

I don't see how when compared to rodents. I DO think rodents have more fatty tissue compared to a chick. Chicks are leaner.
So if fat makes the calories last longer , then yes. But healthier?.. how do you measure that? I guess if a captive group study was done on 2 groups, one fed strictly mice and the other group strictly chicks you might find out which is healthier. But my snakes do eat more with chicks and they are double and triple clutched.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

ZFelicien Mar 12, 2010 11:57 AM

The muscular development of a freshly hatched chick is way less than that of an adult mouse... chicks run threw snakes like water because there really isn't much to digest.

there's not need for a study... common sense works too.

Bluerosy Mar 12, 2010 01:44 PM

The muscular development of a freshly hatched chick is way less than that of an adult mouse... chicks run threw snakes like water because there really isn't much to digest.

there's not need for a study... common sense works too.

Adult domestic mouse -62.9.8% crude protien
1 Day old chick- 64.9% crude protein.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

ZFelicien Mar 12, 2010 09:51 PM

I've seen the chart before, I believe Dave B posted it years ago.

#1 This is a chart of approximations

#2 Looking at data and seeing things at work are two different

#3 We (humans) tend to folk over to data that supports our ideas/theories... sometime we miss the point.

How is this date found... what species did they feed... did they feed anything or was it found the same way calories are found? Don't be so quick to jump when something supports your ideas... the data shows no connection to Kingsnakes.

Are Chicks a good meal.... YES [wen I do feed chicks I use a combo, so I see excellent results... when I fed solely chicks I didn't see the benefit... All I saw was I fed my snakes on Monday (large meals!) and by Tuesday I had a smelly mess waiting for me and a snake ready for more food]

Would I trade rodents in for chicks.... NO

My results speak for themselves... maybe our geographic locations have something to do with our differences in opinions on the benefit of Chicks, but from what I can see... chick are not a good primary source of nutrition for MY snakes.

As far as fat deposits and other issues ... I've yet to have that problem, so I see no reason to opt. out of the rodent market for the "leaner" option esp. when I don't see the added benefit.

Lastly... I think limited space (to move) plays a greater role in the development of fatty tissue than the type of prey...

willstill Mar 12, 2010 12:33 PM

I also agree with you here Rainer, I don't believe for a second that chicks are less nutritious than rodents. Yeah, their body composition is different, but so what? My kingnakes are bigger and more mucular, with less excess body fat since they began their diet of mostly chicks. In fact, I have a large female eastern that would develop lipomas (fatty tumors) whenever her body fat level got too high, since she has been eating chicks, the benign tumors have shrunk to the point of being gone. My snakes aren't as fat, but they lay bigger clutches while still double or triple clutching as a rule. I foolishly avoided feeding chicks for decades because I had always heard that they were less nutritious, and that my snakes would get salmonella and die...nonsense. My kings have never looked or produced better.

Geez Rainer, we've agreed twice in a day, that has got to be some kind of record.

Will

pyromaniac Mar 12, 2010 07:55 AM

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf



I feed mice raised on a diet of Mazuri rodent block, cuttle fish bone for calcium and for them to gnaw on, and water. Oat groats as a supplement to fatten up weanlings. My snakes seem fine with that.
All my snakes are young and still growing, no adult breeders yet. I have heard that chicks make the snake feces stink bad, and since the snakes live in the living room of my cabin, I don't think I will bother with chicks. I did wildlife rescue with an injured owl awhile back, and fed him chicks, and that was very stinky!

Bluerosy Mar 12, 2010 01:47 PM

Thanks for the link and great info!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

mfoux Mar 12, 2010 01:51 PM

I've read these posts and I'm very intrigued. I've fed a couple of chicks to my JCP. Where do you guys get yours?
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http://snakerack.blogspot.com

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Bluerosy Mar 12, 2010 01:59 PM

http://www.rodentpro.com/index.asp?referid=5

chicks are .12 cents
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

varanid Mar 12, 2010 02:44 PM

How's the defecation afterwards? I may swap my kings over to chicks when they're large enough.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Bluerosy Mar 12, 2010 05:14 PM

How's the defecation afterwards? I may swap my kings over to chicks when they're large enough.

Personally speaking i don't notice a difference. But i know some people posting here keep their snakes in the house and i am sure any smell would be more notciable inside an apartment or house.I have a seperate snake room.

With a large collection i feed many snakes at one time. Not all of them eat everything I throw in. Mice get lost in the shavings. ..So when i get back to remove them. i miss some. Mice decomposes and smells REAL bad REAL QUICK. A chick does not have a bad smell when decomposing and you hardly notice the smell.

those with large collections know what i am talking about when 4 or 5 drawers have decomposing mice in them. It smells horrible. I can't stand the smell of decomposing mice.

if you start with chicks , try feeding some smaller snakes the head of a chick and they will imprint and will always eat chicks as adults. Some adults that have never eaten chicks may not recognize the chicken as a food source. these are animals that have been in captivity all their life and have eaten nothing but mice. So mix the the mice with the chicks while defrosting. this way the chicks will pick up the mouse scent and some of the mice willpick up the chic scent. kinda gets them used to the idea of what food is..
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

varanid Mar 12, 2010 05:45 PM

I had a monitor hide (in his burrow) a rat one time. Gagged me when I found it.
I'll give 'em a go in a bit when my snakes are bigger. Most are still on juvy/subadult mice. It can't hurt and I'm with you; if it doesn't hurt the snake I'd rather spend 12-25 cents per than 40 cents per...
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

davidfabius Mar 12, 2010 08:47 PM

I also feed babies on chick pieces,
When they are small, even chick heads can be too large, so I cut at the joints (NOT THE BONES,THAT WOULD BE DANGEROUS ) and give the smaller ones baby chick thighs
All the baby brooks take to them very well

David

JTColubrids Mar 12, 2010 09:47 PM

Rainer, I do the same with the chick heads, I would say that 90% of my kings eat chicks and the majority of the 10$ that don't are neonates that I have on fuzzies or hoppers right now. I pull of the chick heads and feed them to my smaller FL Kings and they jump all over them. I also give my adult female hogs heads every other feeding during breeding season because it seems to fill them out without causing them to be overweight. In my collection, mice sometimes cause a female to become too fat and then she ends up laying a small clutch or sometimes she rejects the male all together and I don't get even one egg out of them at all. Since I have switched over to chicks my snakes have been growing much faster and have put on weight but not to the extent that they become "obese" as they had before when on mice. I do feed mice every once in a while but the majority of my snakes' diet consists of chick heads and bodies

pyromaniac Mar 17, 2010 07:08 PM

In my mousery sometimes I will find a dead mouse. I check my mice twice daily (food, water, ect) so the dead mouse does not get to lay around and bloat up or fester in rampant decomposition, yet I can smell when I have a dead one right away. When I raised chickens I'd have a dead chick once and awhile but those did not seem to smell so awful so fast. In the few rare times one of my snakes has regurged a mouse I know almost immediately! For such a tiny creature a dead mouse sure can pack a wallop to the old olfactory organ! LOL!

antr1 Mar 13, 2010 07:25 PM

I also have fed different typs of food. Personally I have noticed the best results from feeding nice fat rat fuzzies. I tend to see great growth spurts when I feed them.

BUT...I have stopped offering a variety because I always end up with snakes prefering the meal that was a variety and then turning its nose at the old stand by frozen thawed mouse. I don't breed my own mice and nothing can beat the convience of defrosting a few dozen mice for feeding.
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"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

MissHisssss Mar 19, 2010 02:59 AM

Ok, so I'm down from 30 snakes to two. One is a strictly lizard eater Glossy that I've had seven years, and a Desert King that came in my front door that I've had for five. I give her a variety of foods. Mice, lizards, sparrow, dove and quail eggs, wild birds, and even a baby cotton tail (all frozen first to kill nasties). I think that variety is the spice of life and she gets something special from each item. The only thing she refused was a domestic finch. But I couldn't do this if I had my 30 back again.

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