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This picture shows a simple hatchling/juvie lizard setup. You could do many different species in this setup. Monitors, Beardeds and Uros included. We have even done ratsnakes in this type of setup, with incredible success.

The Retes Stack for basking on the left (read more detail in our FAQ) allows for a very wide temp gradient, along with many new hidespots.

In this 20 gallon long tank, using the stack, you have effectively doubled the usable square footage. There are other hides in the cage, including under the water bowl.

A simple soil substrate is used, a topsoil/sand/vermiculite mix in a 50/25/25 ratio. Screen top, yes, but mostly covered to prevent excessive evaporation and heat loss.

The temp gradient in this cage goes from 132F at the top of the stack, drops 5-10 degrees per level, and is 82F on the water bowl side. The bulb is a regular incandescent (lamp) bulb. 45 watts.

That means they can bask at 132F, 125F, 118F, 110F, 107F, 100F, wherever they want. They use it all, but ABSOLUTELY use the top level, every day (when you can achieve your temperature and metabolic needs in a very short period, you no longer need to bask for hours at a time. Your system can run as intended, and you can seek shelter and food, not constant predatory exposure).

No billion watt bulb needed, or even 100 watt bulb, just 45 watts. Terrific temp gradient, multiple hide spots, a substrate with a moisture gradient, all in a very small cage.

Using simple techniques like elevated basking spots (Retes Stacks), covered tops, soil substrates, low wattage bulbs, lots of hide spots, you can absolutely replicate this simple and amazingly effective setup. There is nothing hard about it, it is not advanced, and is well within the intellectual grasp of a new keeper. They just need exposure to the ideas and examples.

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robyn@proexotics.com

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Now that's the stuff Robyn..

This one in a Uro hatchling cage, but larger. These four inch juvies are in a 4 ft tank, with 2 ft of soil. The Retes Stack here tops out at 170F on the top level, yet the cage still gets to the low 80's during the day. These guys definitely make use of this entire temp range.

I have seen plenty of monitor species, Beardeds, and Uros all bask at over 150F. Remember, that is a surface temp, not an air temp. And for the smaller species like Ackies, Beardeds and Uros, we never use more than a 50 watt bulb. In this larger setup, it is usually a 50 watt Halogen bulb, but still low wattage.

When a lizard can achieve its temperature and metabolism needs quickly and efficiently, with proper temps (I consider 120F to be the bare minimum basking temp peak), they can get to other life/daily goals as needed. Like eating, exploring and hiding. Lizards are not meant to bask for long periods, much less hours. Achieve the metabolism goal you have, then move on to other things. Activity levels are high, metabolism is high, appetite is strong, growth is terrific, and breeding is strong and healthy.

Gaining a real understanding for temps, the difference between air and surface temps, real world examples of what they are, and should be (and what "hot" is), adding other aspects like moisture gradients, hide spots and other lizard husbandry issues, you can really make some great strides in your lizard setups and husbandry.

Those old school outdated caresheets and Bearded "Manuals" are only holding folks back from realizing what these species are capable of, and what they truly require from a captive setup.

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robyn@proexotics.com

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I don't know what it may be suitable for but it's not suitable for beardies. There is no UVB and there is only one basking spot. The top. The rest are just different ambient temps. The cool side is also to warm.

It is like you are ANTI knowledge...

And 82F is too high for a daytime ambient? Really?
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robyn@proexotics.com

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Do you make those wood things or is that a part of something?
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www.moonstonedragons.com

That is the "Retes Stack" and we make them here. Check out the FAQ linked here, there is more detail about the theory, and more examples of homemade basking stacks, including pics of other keepers stacks.

It is a tremendous tool for basking reptiles like lizards.
Pro Exotics FAQ on Retes basking stacks

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robyn@proexotics.com

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I used handi-panel from Home Depot 1/8 inch thick and 2x2's - worked great...

That is a pretty great universal recipe. Economical and perhaps the single most useful cage accessory possible.
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robyn@proexotics.com

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I'm pretty curious about this setup and I have a couple questions if you wouldn't mind helping me answer.

I noticed that there is one light in the picture in the OP. Is there a lack of UVB? Can one be used along with this setup?

The other temperatures in the Rete's Stack, those are ambient temperatures correct? I can't see it being basking temperatures due to the lack of being in direct path of the light. What if said temperature on the top layer (that is exposed to light) is too hot for the lizard?

While yes, it may offer many different temperatures to the lizard, what if the needed distance from the UVB also equals too hot of a temperature of the lizard? The other levels wouldn't offer UVB since they are covered by the other boards above. What does that then do to the lizard and it's UVB intake?

I'm only asking because I like to learn and I do so by asking questions. I find this concept pretty interesting and would like to learn more about it and these were some of the questions I had on it.
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www.TheFrilledDragon.com

"The other temperatures in the Rete's Stack, those are ambient temperatures correct? I can't see it being basking temperatures due to the lack of being in direct path of the light. What if said temperature on the top layer (that is exposed to light) is too hot for the lizard?"

I'd like to tackle this one if I may...

The "other" temps you refer to are actually basking temps too. Basking means to warm up by exposure to heat. Heat is created in a variety of ways, including but NOT limited to light.

Certain animals depend on the light as part of their means of basking though. Do they not?
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www.TheFrilledDragon.com

Yep. That is correct. They will use the heat in the different levels as appropriate.

As one very wise lizard keeper said, the lizards know that your lightbulb is NOT the sun. You are not fooling them. Useful temps are what is important, not a pretend sun. That said, I still prefer to use a bright bulb at the top of my stack, as opposed to a ceramic bulb or heat panel.

As for full spectrum lighting, I strongly believe that Vit D utilization is tied to proper temps (specifically sufficiently high basking temps). That is also assuming that Vit D is available in the diet, either through a whole food diet, or insect supplementation. So we don't use full spectrum lighting at all. Not for monitors, tegus, beardeds, uros, or frilled dragons, all of which we have kept in the past or present. Big fan of Frilleds, by the way.

If you want to use full spectrum lighting, you could still carve out a spot in the lid of your cage for a fixture. I still want to limit venting significantly, not using just a wide open screen top.
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robyn@proexotics.com

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I really do like the concept of the Rete's Stacks but I have found other means of offering a large temp gradient without using them and it works well for my reptiles as well as myself. Personally I find that there is definitely a noticeable difference between not giving a reptile UV and that they should always be given UV but that's a whole other topic.

It just seems we have a different method with this but hey, it's part of the hobby.
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www.TheFrilledDragon.com

It is very easy to mount florescent tube fixtures inside a take without making any big holes. In my cages I have standard 4' double bulb florescent fixtures (aka 'shop lights') which come with their own power cord (there are two types, one with its own power cord, and one that wires directly into household power.)

These I just suspend by chains from the ceiling of the cage so they are the desired distance from the basking areas (in a 2' high cage, I have these lowered down so they are about 8" above the highest point of the basking spot). The only hole in the ceiling I need is one just big enough for the plug to fit there (about 1" diameter) which I have over by the cool end. If heat escaping through this hole is a real concern, you can buy these gormet things which fit tight over a whole with only enough space for the power cord...and fits snugly around the power cord in some way. (haven't actually seen them but seen them listed as part of premade cages somewhere).

As for the stakes, the large hole allows light and heat to get down into the lower layers...though if I end up building these, I probably have them with more rectangular gaps...since I really don't have any way to make perfect round circles in the middle of a piece of thin plywood. (underlay plywood would be perfect for these...they are about 3/16th of an inch and very cheap by the sheet.
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PHLdyPayne

You never cease to amaze me. So in your opinion there is no difference between a basking temp. and an ambient temp. lol.

BDLvr-

Is there a difference between "basking" and "ambient" temp within a particular area? It sounds like Robyn and Kmartin are describing temps within the confines of given Retes levels. So if an animal stays at a given level and remains exposed to a certain temperature of, say, 110*, isn't "basking" vs. "ambient" irrelevant since the only thing that matters is that the animal achieves its desired body temperature?

I'm definitely not trying to incite an argument here. I am just trying to understand the temp distinctions.

Thanks!

The words ambient and basking have different meanings. I often use the analogy of an asphalt road on a sunny warm day. The thermometer says it's 90 that is the ambient. But, the road is hot enough to burn your feet. That is the basking spot temp. Basking spot temp. is a surface temp. Ambient temp. is an air temp. This is a very important distinction in setting up the right conditions. KMartin and Robyn are distorting the facts to try and make their poor design seem like it could be acceptable. It's not sorry. Hopefully most people can see that. Anything under a surface cannot be a basking spot. The surface temp in the shade will be the same as the air temp.

Actually that is not true at all, the air temp and the surface temp are quite different in the stacks.

We have used Retes basking stacks in literally thousands of different setups, both snakes and lizards, many different species.

The material acts as a heat sink, it holds heat. When I give temps going down through the stacks, 130F, 120F, 117F, 106F, etc, those are SURFACE temps of the individual levels.

If you stick a digital probe in there, to measure air temps, it is much lower for an air temp.

I think you have an intentional mental block about these temperature issues, and that is what is causing the disconnect.

Separate note: speaking of the material itself and heat sink and conductive properties, wood works much better than stone, and thin works much better than thick. On the material side, think of a hot day standing on your wood deck, versus standing on the asphalt.
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robyn@proexotics.com

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The material can only get the heat from the air around it since it is in the shade. Because the air temp. below each piece of wood would be less than the air temp. above it, the wood would acually be cooler than the air above it. Sorry this is the law of physics. The farther you are from the heat source the cooler the temps will be. You need to redesign your temp guns if they support your observations because it just doesn't work that way.

"The words ambient and basking have different meanings. I often use the analogy of an asphalt road on a sunny warm day. The thermometer says it's 90 that is the ambient. But, the road is hot enough to burn your feet. That is the basking spot temp. Basking spot temp. is a surface temp. Ambient temp. is an air temp. This is a very important distinction in setting up the right conditions. KMartin and Robyn are distorting the facts to try and make their poor design seem like it could be acceptable. It's not sorry. Hopefully most people can see that. Anything under a surface cannot be a basking spot. The surface temp in the shade will be the same as the air temp."

The analogy you always refer to just makes me chuckle : )

How hot do you think the asphalt road is when the ambient(air) temp is 90 degrees? 105?

Try about 140, 150, 160 and so on. I've temped blacktop concrete well over 200 degrees in the summer.

The Retes Stack is an excellent husbandry tool...the concept comes from true observance of lizards in the wild hiding in wood piles, rock nests, dug tunnels and so on. The basking bulb heats up the entire stack much like the sun heats up the mentioned structures...different amounts of heat available in the levels.

They are basking temps because a Retes Stack is essentially a structure of closely-knit surfaces. I believe an ambient temperature can be measured, but it does involve some basic math.

But Retes Stacks are useless right?

Check the definition of "bask" or "basking" from any recognized dictionary. Notice the word "light" isn't included. This is because basking simply means to warm up by exposure to heat.

It's too bad I didn't have my temp gun in the car today. The air temp outside is about 59 degrees F. I walked outside my building to a section of mulch that has been exposed to sunlight for most of the day. I put my hand just above the mulch and it was definately warmer than my hand. From prior experience shooting temps outside I'll bet this would have measured at 110 or higher.

You don't really read others posts do you? I never said high surface temps. don't exist in nature. You certainly can't burn your feet on pavement that is 105.

I'm done with this discussion because it is idiotic. I give most of the readers here credit for being smart enough to know that there is no basking temp. in a shaded area, only an ambient temp. so enough said.

To be honest, every surface will have a temperature that can be less, equal or greater than air temp. Our body surface temp is often different than the air temp around it, whether we are inside out of direct light or out in direct sunlight (mostly due to our ability to regular our internal temperatures).

Also, the Rete's stacks Robyn makes have big holes in them...thus light does get into the lower levels. Others which don't have holes, tend to be stacked in a staggered manner, so lower levels do get some amount of heat from the light source.

Snakes bask as well, though most species don't bask in sun, they bask on surfaces heated by the sun or warm due to heat being trapped within.

Heat is generated by more processes than just from the sun or a light source. Friction certainly produces heat, as well as decomposition. Surfaces under direct sunlight heat up faster, depending on the material and color (ie black asphalt is going to heat up faster than say, white sand).

However, eventually the surface temps of objects and air temperatures, as you go deeper in a stack, will equal out, as heat can only penetrate so far.

There is also reflected heat from surfaces which can warm surfaces in crevices simply because its being 'hit' by reflected heat waves from surfaces in direct sunlight. There is alot more going on with how heat is being distributed through these Rete's stacks than just simple heat from a light source above heating the air between each stack.

What would be really cool to see is what those Rete's stacks look like using IR (heat sensing) views. These camera's will show how heat is being distributed throughout a stack system and whether the wood is in fact 'oozing' heat into lower levels, or acting as a barrier. (I expect if the wood itself is cold or cooler than the surrounding air, it would show as black or various shades of green..) There was a Reptile's Magazine article with these shorts of images in Chondro cage setups using various heat sources...can't remember the issue it was in though. A couple years ago I think now anyway.
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PHLdyPayne

Discussion on husbandry, temps, theory, application and reality is idiotic?

Amazing.

More properly stated, it is a basking stack, but those are specifically surface temperatures, not ambient temps. And from there you can go into how they are utilized.

I will pull some ambient temps from between Retes stack levels, along with their corresponding surface temps, shortly. I would be happy to post the info.

For keepers serious about their animals, and less about their own personalities and egos, such discussion, debate and info is far from idiotic : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles