Reptile & Amphibian Forums

While the recent debates on bearded dragon theory have often degraded into mudslinging, it would be interesting to test the theories in a more controlled setting. Are any of you experienced keepers willing to test the two prevailing husbandry concepts side by side for, say, 1 year and report back your findings? I think Chris Allen and Robyn from PE had mentioned doing such a comparative study, but unfortunately I don't think they ever got around to it. (Now the truth may be that both philosophies/methods may be equally effective, but it would be an interesting and informative experiment.)

So here some ground rules:

Two setups in equal size enclosures.
At least two animals from the same clutch.
Similar food sources and feeding schedules.
Scheduled weighings and measurements.

Setup A:
- Peak basking temps at around 105*.
- No hide spots
- UVB bulb
- Sand or paper towels as substrate

Setup B:
- Peak basking temps at 120* or higher, up to around 130*
- Many tight and low hides (or Retes stacks)
- No UVB
- Soil as substrate

Anyone interested in testing out these theories objectively?

Just waiting to hear from Chris Allen on hatchling availability, using his animal stock.

Should be a lot fun, I am looking forward to it!
-----
robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

This would be a hard theory to access and accurately test because dragons are so different from one to the next. You would have to conduct a large scale study to get accurate results.

What are you trying to prove here... just the heat and hides?

They will thrive in both settings as long as their basic essentials are covered... a healthy bloodlined, robust dragon will thrive in either setting. They are a hearty species that has undergone a great deal of selective breeding.

They will adapt to the environment they are exposed to, acclimate, thrive and survive. The only differences you will see, will be on an individual basis. There are so many variations in their native habitat a temp difference of so little will not effect them all that much.

Some dragons temperaments are very good as well as their bloodlines... (they may be the bigger and healthier dragon from a clutch) this type of dragon will thrive no matter what setting they are exposed to.

As long as their basic necessities are met and feeding is decent... Whereas other dragons are seemingly more susceptible to minor variations and will not thrive no matter the perfect husbandry and setting etc. they are weak and fail to thrive. that is why dragons lay 25 eggs in a clutch. In the wild one or two from a clutch would survive basically... the biggest and healthiest ones.

It comes down to the health of the bloodlines.

The higher the temp (120 surface temp is pretty decent) (110 or 115 surface temp is great also) and the more the dragon is given hides and allowance for temperature change gradients aka (Self Thermo regulation) the better they will do. They need heat and higher temps to speed up their metabolism and to rapidly process foods. The exoskeletons of insects require some higer temps for digestions. Roaches have thicker exoskeletons than say crickets and would require a little higher temps for proper digestion.

When they do this (eat hearty food and have higher temps)... they grow quicker.

105 surface temp means an ambient of say 85-90 degrees. It should be warmer.

If you have a big enclosure... I would rather my dragon have access to higher heat if it wants or needs to bask in say a 120 surface temp then only having a 105 surface temp provided and the animal requiring higher temps for proper digestion.

Analogy...

If I go out to the sand on the beach in the summer time here in Florida on say a 90 degree summer day. The sand is so hot it imposible to walk on... you will burn your feet. The summer temps and surface temps go wayyyyyyy up!!!! The surface temp of the sand hits like 150 with white sugar sand. It is scorching hot. Let alone red Australian desert sand.

I live and Florida and have spent time in the desert over seas as well as here in the states.

Dragons will stay back a few inches if they need to... or hide altogether... this is to self regulate and find ideal temps.

105 surface temp is too low. Your better off if you have the proper sized enclosure running temps on the higher side offering lots of hides and shade.

I have watched the native reptiles in my area... anoles, chameleons, skinks, etc etc. 100 ambient temp on the hot side is pretty close to what you should have maybe more say 105 or 110 even. If its too much in a 4 foot long enclosure they will hang out on the cooler side which should be 80 or 85 ambient.

What are the humidity levels in Australia? The land is a giant Island. The desert regions only make up about 10 percent or less of the total landmass. I bet the humidity levels are higher than we create or simulate in captivity. Similar to Florida... humid intense heat.

UVB exposure and humidity levels would be a better test to conduct in my opinion.

Look at the elevations the dragons live at. They live at or near sea level... these areas are more humid I believe.

Not sure though because when I was in the mojave desert in california it was dry dry heat. Low temps at night 45-50 and high temps during the day time. Up into the 100's dry heat despite being relatively close to the pacific ocean. Florida is humid. Think it has to do with the close proximity to the equator.

Dragons are found over a large diverse area and are not centralized in one specific region in australia. Therefore I believe they can adapt to a variety of temperature ranges.

The true climate of Australia and their native environment needs to be closely simulated for the best thriving dragons. The closer you could simulate that... the better they will do.

As long as there are people who think they know it all and have lives that have little going on in them, you will never settle this debate.

When I was growing orchids, I purchased the Lecouf book and grew every orchid he claimed could not be grown in home conditions. Was he wrong about not being able to grow these orchids in the home? No. Just at the time no one knew what it took to grow these varieties in the home. What is my point. Conditions are different in every home and in every area of the country. Things done in Florida will not work in Las Vegas where I live because of temps and dryness here. You have to do what works for you.

In order for this challenge to be anything but a waste of time, EVERY participant must set up and enclosure for each environmental condition. Looking at temps, every participant must do a hot spot of 120 and also must do a hot spot of 105. This way both conditions are tested in the same conditions. Anyone who does this must basically set up enclosures with their view and the opposing view to make this effective. AND you must give the opposing view the same time and attention the same care and consideration you give to your point of view. It is called objectivity, and there has been little of that given to this topic in this forum up to now.

[A]n objective account is one which attempts to capture the nature of the object studied in a way that does not depend on any features of the particular subject who studies it. An objective account is, in this sense, impartial, one which could ideally be accepted by any subject, because it does not draw on any assumptions, prejudices, or values of particular subjects. This feature of objective accounts means that disputes can be contained to the object studied." (Gaukroger, 2001, p. 10785)

Good luck with that.
-----
www.moonstonedragons.com

As Inland Bearded dragons range from semi-arid to desert regions in Australia (most of the eastern inland areas of Australia from southern end of the Northern Territory down nearly the southeast coast and over east into southwestern Queensland and northern New South Wales....lots of temperature variations fall in this large area. Inland Bearded dragons also have one of the largest ranges of the 8 bearded dragon species. (Second Largest range)

In this area, ambient (air) temperature can range anywhere between about 80F to 95F which is pretty much the 80-90F ambient temperature recommended to keep bearded dragons at in captivity (temps higher than 90F can cause over heating if dragons don't have a cooler area to retreat to.). This has nothing to do with surface temp or basking temperature (other than its easier to get a higher basking temp if the air temp is higher and if the cage isn't set up well or too small or doesn't allow air heat to escape...it can heat up the entire cage too much and rob the dragon of a place to cool down in).

Thus, keeping dragons at 100F in one cage and another at 120F (basking temps) isn't going to really prove anything, if both setups have ambient temps in the same range (ie 80-90F). The dragons will just bask longer to keep their internal temperatures in the range they need by absorbing heat. Dragons are also very good at positioning themselves to maximize or minimize heat absorption as well as other adaptations, such as darkening their color, spreading out their bodies to increase surface area, turning their bodies towards the sun, etc.

For any such experiment to know which method is the best method, many factors have to be taken in considering, assuming the dragons used are all healthy and thriving animals (not sickly members of a clutch with bad genes etc). Both cage setups should be the exact same size, have the exact same heating/lighting fixtures and tubes (eliminates variables between different brands and types of bulbs/fixtures) though wattage can vary as needed to obtain the goal temperatures.

Tanks and tank contents should be the same in as many ways as possible. (all should be the same size (for this sort of experiment, tanks should be bigger than minimum... 5'x2' is good and the same height). They should also be built by the same material and style...ideally both should be built by the same person or bought from the same company at the same time (to eliminate changes in manufacturing either by the cage maker or the maker of materials. (for the most part this isn't likely going to be an issue)). Placement of fixtures etc should be same. Basking spot should be of similar material (rocks, logs, etc all absorb and reflect heat in different ways) and color.

What is used to measure temps, should be the same product and model. (If the temp gun is a PE-25 both people should be using this same model...)this eliminates variations in the accuracy of thermometers used.

For temperatures, several spots should be measures...The highest accessible area of the basking spot, a mid point then a low point on the basking area (these should be areas a dragon can put his torso into fully (if only his head and shoulders can fit in the temperature zone, than not really a good indication of what temp the dragon is trying to bask in (midpoint of body should be the target area to take temperatures). Ambient temperatures in the basking area needs to be measured, mid point of cage and far end of cage Temperature outside the cage (ie room temperature) should also be measured.

I also feel at least three temperature readings of all areas should be done. Once in the morning about half hour after lights go on, mid day and around 6pm. Temperature should also be taken at least once during the night to measure nighttime temps.

The tough part is being there (or to have a vidcamera recording the dragon's activities all day long from just before lights on to some time after lights go out. (and this needs a timestamp on it so when reviewed later, the time can be noted when the dragon moves from one spot to another in the tank). Recording how long the dragon stays in the hottest part of the basking spot and at what time he goes there...plus his activities after warming up etc.

Oh and another thing that will have to be monitored and kept the same..is how much food and what kind of food is given. The dragon should be weighed regularly, his food weighed etc. Portions of what type of greens offered in the total food given is also important. (this eliminates variations in diet which could affect how the dragon grows/thrives.) Dragons should be weighed regularly too, especially after bowel movements (to get an idea how much 'weight' is waste matter compared to how much food they get between bowel movements.) On the subject of bowel movements, each one should be recorded as well...more a pain with babies, as they tend to poop more often, but with adults, important to know...and frequency of bowel movements compared to amount of food eaten...may shed light on digestion efficiency in temperature variations.

The goal is to see how dragons utilize temperatures in their environment...do they really use higher temperature basking spots (providing ambient temps don't exceed what they are safe within) or are they just as content to use lower level temperatures and do they thrive better or the same in either areas. Adding too many variables to this experiment will just skew the results (such as using no uvb lights, supplements only, sand substrate or paper towel etc.)

Research in a scientific way is tedious and repetitive with alot of control factors to eliminate unknown variables which can completely affect the results of an experiment. (of course mistakes and unknown variables have lead to great discoveries on their own...but for this debate, it needs to be pretty exact.)

Finally, accurate and consistent record keeping. Don't try to remember the measurements...and write them down later...record everything immediately...and enter that data into a spreadsheet or other format which ensures the data can be easily analyzed later. Make backups! Nothing worse than spending all the money, time and effort on this experiment only to have your results lost in an unexpected Harddrive crash (doesn't hurt to make regular hard copies too and keep your paper notes organized).
-----
PHLdyPayne

105 is for adult dragons. I recommend 110-115 for babies.

First let me start off by saying that I do not mean to offend anyone. These are simply my findings and feelings on bearded dragon husbandry.

People seem to get lost in which way is the right way to care for a dragon and don't realize that there are a number of different ways to do so that are all effective. This all depends on the individual dragon and their preferences and needs. I had over 30 bearded dragons at one time and I catered to every one of their personal preferences from basking temps to substrate preferences so that they would feel the least amount of stress and the greatest amount of happiness. While these animals are not vocal like you and I, it is very easy to read them and figure out what they want.

Over the course of several years of keeping beardies I have used everything from calcium sand to tile. I currently use soil and tile for my dragons. In the beginning I started off with a basking temperature gradient of 105 to 120 on all of my dragons and a substrate of calcium sands. Through the course of several months I noticed issues with the calcium sands dying the dragon's scales and it was getting stuck in their vent and eyes. That was changed out and I moved onto various substrates particle and non-particle. Down the road I noticed that some dragons had stronger urges to dig than others and that others avoided the ground when there was a particle substrate so I changed them accordingly. Some of my dragons (many from the same clutch) preferred different environments. Once I switched some to soil they were very happy and I was satisfied with the substrate choice as well. Once I switched the others to tile
once again both the reptiles and I were happy with the choice.

I also monitored their temperature preferences as well. I noticed some would avoid the higher basking spots constantly while others enjoyed the 115 degree spots. I used an infrared temp gun to measure my temps and used the exact same bulbs for all of them. I checked all of their stool samples for undigested food, different consistencies, etc and found nothing. I tested my dragons every 3 months for parasites and little to none ever showed up. All of my dragons grew at a steady and healthy rate despite their housing differences.

I guess what I'm trying to say short and sweet is, don't argue with each other. Just offer all of the different methods to people and have them see what they and their dragon prefer.

Granted that handicapped or very ill dragons should have specific requirements on substrates (in my opinion at least) but I was speaking generally.

Once again I hope I didn't offend anyone with what I had said. If your method works for you and your animal isn't suffering from it, I say go for it. We all have the best intentions for our animals and I don't doubt that's the case with the members on this forum.
-----
www.TheFrilledDragon.com

Very well said and very true in all aspects. Also in the wild bearded dragons do have a wide range...from deserts to dry forests and adopt to them all equally. These are hardy lizards and can thrive in a good range of conditions...which is why they are great beginner reptiles, as they are very fault tolerant.
-----
PHLdyPayne