Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This information comes from myself and a friend of mine that have spent some time in the horticulture business and this has proven to be very important to us.

Often I log on to these forums and read up on knowledge and until now have done nothing but learn and now I have knowledge to spread.

Throughout my experience I have come into many harmfull organisms in the soil I have used to grow my produce and flowers. Many of these organisms attack the plant starting with the roots and so on spread form here to the plant causing harmfull and much unwanted results. Now before you quit reading thinking this is a thread on plants and you think i am stupid or crazy let me elaborate.

Many times I see questions about a female dragon that is gravid and ready to lay eggs. To my astonishment I find people often give the best advice they can and it is really nothing more than unknowledgeable people trying to help when they should remain silent.(Breeders included)

First off this has nothing to do with the container used nor the heat but it does however deal with the substrate used to lay the eggs. Most people purchase a mixture of dirt from their local hardware store I.E. Lowes, Homedepot and the like.
These dirt mixtures are by far the worst thing anyone could do if not using the method in which I am about to explain in full detail. When purchasing these soils there is no guarantee in where the dirt comes from nor a method of regultaion for the contents. Many of these substrates are a mixture of sand and dirt along with many other things that are not listed and so on.

Many organisms in the dirt are lowering the lifespan of your pets and breeding dragons without you ever knowing it.

Their are numerous amounts of harmfull bacteria and they only thrive in the moist humid enviroment of the bag they are in while left in the sun to only speed the process. Now many soils contain beneficial organisms also which will naturally combat these harmfull species and provail. Unfortunately they usually must be added to the soil while the harmfull ones are already thriving.

Do you know what is in your soil % wise?
Here is a method find a large enough glass jar to hold around 1lb soil when it is half full that you have purchased. Add the soil to the jar and then add enough distilled water to fill the jar with about half filled with the soil. tighten the lid to the jar and shake vigorously for about 1 minute. Once this is done allow the jar to sit on an even surface for about an hour or even longer if you like. After this period the soil should have separated and will now show you the contents on different levels. Often I find most soils are around 60-70% dirt containing a certain % of sand and crustacean material (shells) along with this numerous seeds will float and you will even see dead bugs on the surface water.

Now you are probably going wow never thought of this and these are just the mixtures as you would need a microscope to see the true harmfull stuff (Bacteria).
Now how do I insure that the soil is 100% healthy for my egg baring female and what will give the best scenario for healthy off-spring.

This next method will seem pretty easy given you actually care to establish the best enviroment possible and actually only takes a few minutes and will do wonders in the long run. After all this typing the method is simple please microwave your soil for at least 3 minutes depending on the amount of soil used at one time this may take several rotations to complete as I dont know of a jumbo microwave. The sessions in the microwave will guarantee 100% sterile soil. As females lay their eggs a certaim % of bodily fluids is also exchanged the bacteria are hungry and when its all said and done the eggs are directly exposed to this enviroment. Not exactly the best start for something lacking natural immunities for the first few weeks of their new life. Caution you may want to use a old microwave and place it outside or in the garage as the soil will smell while cooking. I hope this helps and I hope I have changed many peoples methods as for the breeders this is a simple step to insure you are on top of your game. Have you ever had hatchlings die a few days after hatching. (Breeders you cant say no if you do your lying) BACTERIA.........

This seems to be supporting an anti-soil position both in enclosures and nest boxes. I happen to agree with you and use sand in both. I let my nest box substrate completely dry whenever possible (about once a week) because of the same concerns. Others here will vehemently disagree that warm moist dirt could possibly harbor bacteria.

Oh and one more thing to consider. Even if you sterilize the materials, bacteria from the air will land and grow in warm moist areas. So regular re-sterilization would be necessary.

Yes it will but so will sand also my females dont lay in sand they need the compact soil to dig. Are you referring to the % of sand in a soil mix? Otherwise your sand will harbor bacteria just as well if it remains moist. The truth is the possibility of airborne bacteria causing a life threatening issue is very little as compared to the bacteria and the billions of #'s they have multiplied too while sitting in the soil/sand mixtures. I just really wanted to get this out there for the home hobbyist who is frantic about his pregnant lady and hopefully give them the best start. Peace J

I use 100% sand in my nest boxes now. I used to do a sand soil mix but changed for the better about 4 years ago. My nest boxes are terrariums of at least 4 x 2 in size. They hold about 200 lbs. of sand each heated by bulbs and under tank heaters. I have 3 so I completely dry out each nest box on a regular schedule.

If I don't, I can smell mildew. I know if I can smell it there is a much greater problem for my animals.

Absolutely terrible stuff mildew can be. Just keep in mind bacteria Warmth Food(bodily fluid exchange) = Bacteria reproduction depending on exactly what is present.

Do you reuse your sand without sterilizing?The enviroment can become quite hazardous. If you dispose of this sand each time then the chances are much lower. However depending on your breeding regimen and how much you breed yearly that can add up to a lot of sand especially at 200lbs per box....

I'm a rescue/rehab. I don't breed. But, female dragons lay eggs without being bred so I immediately freeze the eggs and then discard them.

I do not sterilize the medium between animals or clutches. I currently have 9 females. Only 3 are laying eggs so far this spring. So there is a lot of time to dry out the nest boxes. The sand gets to a little over 100 when it is dry.

absolutely soil that is warm will most deff. harbor bacteria. Given the variations in laying time frames the method listed above will remove all the harmful side effects of laying. Moonstone also made a good point in ensuring it is 100% organic.
As for airborne bacteria and things of that nature I would like to believe that most people are removing harmful air from their laying area and incubator/hatching area. I know this isnt the case but I like to do things different and I run a laboratory sanitary state at all times.

I always micowave my soil for laying. You can bake it as well for large batches. Just make sure there is moisture in the soil you stir it up to make sure it heats evenly.

My bigger concern is that the soil is certified organic. Most of the soils from the hardware chains have chemicals and fertalizers in them. BLACK GOLD brand make a seed starting mix the is 100% certified organic.
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www.moonstonedragons.com

Hey there Moonstone,
Absolutely I believe organic is the only way to go. If people are close to a local garden wrather than the hardware store they often deal in bulk organic soils and they are much cheaper than say a hardware store or a specialty plant store. Most places I have found are usually wholesale garden centers specializing in mulch and so on. For myself personally I choose to buy pure organic soil off line and have it delivered. There are many brands this way when you open the internet ordering door.

I personally feel when it comes to egg laying mediums going through all the trouble of sterilizing it after every use and at purchase, is rather a waste of time. Most breeders incubate eggs in a different medium then the eggs are laid in, such as vermiculite. In the wild, eggs are always laid in warm moist soil/sand dirt or piles of decomposing plant materials (depending on the species of reptile in question) and these eggs grow and hatch out healthy offspring readily quite well.

Plants are a totally different 'creature' and are in the soil all the time and there are also many other factors involved with them. If kept in a pot, fertilizers, too much or too little watering etc, can affect the plant's ability to resist harmful bacterias in the soil etc.

Eggs have been incubated successfully in vermiculite or perlite by breeders who have 100% hatch rate or near to 100% hatch rates for decades. I also feel a completely sterile environment can be just as harmful as beneficial...as it also prevents animals from encountering what they would normally, and weaken their immune systems from common bacteria and other micro-organisms...which can make them less resistant to them, as they wouldn't have developed ways to combat these organisms.

When you did your shake and settle experiment with soil, did you test the separated water for micro-organisms and bacteria?
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PHLdyPayne

Actually, a lot of eggs laid in the wild never hatch. If they do hatch, most never make it to breeding age. I want higher odds than in nature, and alway have a problem comparing my home to the desert or jungles of the world. "In nature" things do happen, but my dragons, parrots, snakes, dogs, tarantulas and scorpions are not in nature. When taking aninals into captiviety, all the rules change.
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www.moonstonedragons.com

However, I do agree that nature should be your guide.
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www.moonstonedragons.com

True, in the wild every egg lain by every dragon isn't likely to hatch..however the causes of 'egg death' are many, everything from being preyed upon by various egg loving animals (goannas, monitors, birds, etc), poorly chosen location (female didn't lay in a good environment or the conditions changed), and other factors. But nature has its own safeguards by ensuring high mortality rate (by natural means, as opposed to man made) is countered by high yield. Dragons probably lay over 50 eggs a year (I don't think dragons clutch as much in the wild as they do in captivity...2-3 clutches is probably the normal for them).

But the wild aside...eggs are only exposed to commercial sands/dirt for a very short period of time, before being moved into a different substrate (sure the eggs will have some bacteria on them..but I am pretty sure the egg itself has its own protections against bacteria etc. to some extent...leathery shell can be one, plus various membranes inside).

We certainly do want to ensure the best possible chances for survival in the animals we care and breed, but its no good to put everything in a 100% sterile environment either.

I don't breed bearded dragons myself, I don't' have the time, space or money to care for a 100 babies or more and none of the other animals I have that I do breed, laid eggs on sand. I usually just use damp moss or vermiculate/dirt mix as the egg laying medium. I only had eggs fail to hatch due to being infertile, or too damp conditions in the incubator.

If its something you want to do to ensure nothing in the soil can be harmful to your eggs, it is certainly a method to help ensure every egg hatches a healthy baby dragon (or other animal). For myself I don't find there is much benefit in the long run for the egg hatching or not.
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PHLdyPayne

I think we're talking about 2 different things. I hatch in sterile vermiculite as many do. I've never had mold growth or any bad smell.

My nest boxes are sand that is certainly not going to be sterile no matter what you do. Lots of other stuff comes out of a female dragon into the nest box then just eggs. So the case could be made that the nest material has to be sterilized after each use.

Also Adenovirus is spread through contaminated nest boxes.

I buy fresh soil for every clutch and sterilize it in the oven before use. I use the organic seed starting formula from black gold. I would never reuse laying medium.
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www.moonstonedragons.com

Micro is on the way and I will give results when available. I am just now studying many of the cultures present in the soil to more familiarize myself with there appearances and signs to look for in there presence under magnification.

It has become quite a handful as I am not to book friendly and really learn from consequence and hands on experience. I have been interested in these things for a very long time and am just now really grasping a concept. You can imagine the headache being there are so many variences in soil content and where it resides in its natural environment. How it is farmed for use. Large equipment used is often prone to leak fluids when digging, these fluids often reside in the soil long after it is bagged.

You are correct however on native species in there environment untainted by human hands you will find natural healthy rate of offspring but this is a whole different aspect as far as the ecosystem present and how it all reacts as a whole. Australia for instance has a very airid climate where there is a very low percentage of humidity. Obviously the rainy season being an exception. It is very hard to say what is going on without studying this determined area for long periods of time. As far as the offspring being healthy and thriving it all depends on many factors in the wild whether it is prey, disease, injury and so on. Soil being the least of the concerns when a bird of prey is flying circles....