Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Please excuse a dumb question, but what is the earliest possible age that a female pituophis can breed? I have all my pits separate that are over a year old mainly to prevent unwanted premature breeding of my females. I know how old the females SHOULD be, but not how old they can get "knocked up" at, so to speak.

Never mind I dumbly posted this in the wrong forum...sorry!

Jani and deppie take a long time to raise up unless you get hairless rats. Otherwise they regurge.

Oh shoot wrong forum too.LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

That's what we get for keeping multiple links open at once! LOL!

Both of you guys are goofy, come on, when a wild female cycles, she is bred, Oh unless her parents tell her not too. Come the heck on, there is no such thing as premature breeding, hahahahahahaha You do understand a female snake has to form eggs to be fertilized. Sperm by itself is only so many tadpoles.

Of course you could FAIL to support snakes and that is a problem.

And Bluerosy, hairless mice, hahahahahahahahahaha how goofy of you. If they have problems, its because you are not allowing them to function properly. By the way, I have seen tons of Jani in nature. They do consume rodents with FUR.

Whoops, wrong forum. Pardon me. Cheers

And Bluerosy, hairless mice, hahahahahahahahahaha how goofy of you. If they have problems, its because you are not allowing them to function properly. By the way, I have seen tons of Jani in nature. They do consume rodents with FUR.

what i meant is that people had a hard time raising these snakes up because when they were feed to often thery regurged. So in order for them not to regurege they fed tham sparingly and that caused a slow growth and breeding to sevral tyears longer than a normal captive colubrid or pit.

By introducing the hairless rats the jani stopped regurging and grew to SEXUAL maturity in 2 years.

come on, when a wild female cycles, she is bred, Oh unless her parents tell her not too. Come the heck on, there is no such thing as premature breeding, hahahahahahaha You do understand a female snake has to form eggs to be fertilized. Sperm by itself is only so many tadpoles.

Com'n man, You copy that from my website or are you finally learining something from my posts?!!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

come on, when a wild female cycles, she is bred, Oh unless her parents tell her not too. Come the heck on, there is no such thing as premature breeding, hahahahahahaha You do understand a female snake has to form eggs to be fertilized. Sperm by itself is only so many tadpoles.
Well, then how young can a snake be to ovulate?
(And girls never listen to their parents!)

I have bred yearling females. Most all go in two years though.

A better question should be how much to feed a snake. Females are the ones you need to work on. males can breed small anyway. But a females needs some fat and healthy girth to ovulate.

If you have your snakes on a feeding schedule and you want to breed them in two years then you must TAKWE THEM OFF A SCHEDULE and feed often and as much as they will eat. You cannot overfeed a growing snake.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I do feed my snakes as much as they want. I raise my own mice so this is easy to do; plenty of pinks and fuzzies. I tried having a schedule but that really didn't work, as some would want to eat every four days and others every ten days and so forth. I only have 18 snakes so it is easy to cater to their individual desires. In the spring is when they all want to eat the most and I take advantage of that. My plan is to wait until they are a full three years old so that all their internal organs are fully developed as well as generally being big enough. I was just concerned that with my pits they would jump the gun (you know teenagers!) With the kings this is not an issue as I never house any kings together.

My plan is to wait until they are a full three years old so that all their internal organs are fully developed as well as generally being big enough. I was just concerned that with my pits they would jump the gun (you know teenagers!) With the kings this is not an issue as I never house any kings together

You are making some big mistakes here by stating )your plan". It is not what we think but what the snakes want to do. the best we can do is listen to the snakes and try and read what they teach us. That is what makes a good herpetoculturist.

It has nothing to do with internal organs or teenage homo sapieans. Don't make the comparison.

In my experience, younger females lay better and more viable clucthes. Take advantage of when they are at their best!

FR (Frank retes also suggested this and he has been around for sevral more decades than myself breeding sankes and studying the ecology of snakes. You won't get better advice than from him..

Also i keep all my kings togther year round except during egg laying. You can put them together now so it is more likely you will not miss that window of opportunity when the females is ready. A good time to "bond" snakes is during the brumation period. Bonded snakes living in groups do better. I would suggest you don't don't put neonates togther. I wait until they are on hopper or small mice before i keep (or introduce)them in groups. This will eleviate any future chances of cannibalism. Start the bonding process now.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>
>>Also i keep all my kings togther year round except during egg laying. You can put them together now so it is more likely you will not miss that window of opportunity when the females is ready.
>>Bluerosy

You don't worry about the heat that the females are on killing the males sperm before their ready to breed?
Bob Bichler

Okay warning first for anyone not used to reading my posts. i have lots of typos. Maybe some will figure out what my fingers are actually typing.

You don't worry about the heat that the females are on killing the males sperm before their ready to breed?
Bob Bichler

No to your question. A female will not sit on the hot end and cook her sperm or eggs to death. If they can move away, then they know what to do and when. If you have had this experince and had bad eggs maybe there was another reason!

They don't sit on the heat unless they want to. i keep the heat on low all winter. Gues what? they choose to sit on the cold end unless i feed them. When i feed them they move over to the hot end to digest. As soon as they are finished they move back again to the cold side. See what they are doing. They are conserving energy as much as possible. That is what snakes do in the wild. They are constantly choosing (seeking!) the right temp and humididty.

It is all about giving your captives choices. That goes for food as well as temps. That's why i don't put them on a weekly feeding schedule and i don't force winter brumation by cutting off the temps all winter long making them sit in 55 or lower temps. That is not giving the snakes choices.That is FORCING what we think is best for the snake.

Of course the choices i am offering is nothing compared to what they need. But is it a step in the right direction. And better then what most people do.

let the snake make as many choices as possible and provide that by listening (or watching) what they do or want to do.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>
>>Also i keep all my kings togther year round except during egg laying. You can put them together now so it is more likely you will not miss that window of opportunity when the females is ready.
>>Bluerosy

I don't think I phrased that question right. You said that you keep your kings together, untill egg laying. What I was trying to refer to was when the male snakes are in with the female snakes during warm up period. I once read or heard that I should keep the males off heat untill the female is ready to breed him because the heat will reduce or kill the males sperm. Is that just a myth, or can , or does the heat reduce the males sperm count, that you know of.
The reason I ask is because, I've had a lot of problems with infertile eggs the pass couple of years.
What temps do you keep your male colubrids at, before breeding.
Thanks, Bob Bichler

My snakes are kept is a fairly cool room during the winter and spring season. Summers i have to turn the heat off.

if you have heat on one side and a cool side , i don't see how that can happen unless you have the whole unit so hot that the snakes can't get away from tmps that are too warm..
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>My snakes are kept is a fairly cool room during the winter and spring season. Summers i have to turn the heat off.
>>
>>if you have heat on one side and a cool side , i don't see how that can happen unless you have the whole unit so hot that the snakes can't get away from tmps that are too warm..
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>>www.Bluerosy.com

I have the hot spot only on the back 1/4 of their boxes, but the male will want to sit on the heat to, if I put them in with the females during warm up period.
Bob
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

What I was trying to refer to was when the male snakes are in with the female snakes during warm up period.

I think where we got confused is this part .

I don't have a 'warm up" period. My snakes stay on heat all winter. Spring is no different except i feed them more. i feed all my adults through the winter as well. Especially focusing on females and thinner males.

The reason i take the males out from the females cage during egg laying is they may eat the eggs.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>What I was trying to refer to was when the male snakes are in with the female snakes during warm up period.
>>
>>I think where we got confused is this part .
>>
>>I don't have a 'warm up" period. My snakes stay on heat all winter. Spring is no different except i feed them more. i feed all my adults through the winter as well. Especially focusing on females and thinner males.
>>
>>The reason i take the males out from the females cage during egg laying is they may eat the eggs.
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>>www.Bluerosy.com
>>
OK, I understand what your saying, but what heat gradiant do you keep them at in the spring before breeding time? And you don't worry about the males getting to much heat before breeding time?
Thanks again, Bob
>>
>>"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".
>>
>>
>>"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

>>I think where we got confused is this part .
>>
>>I don't have a 'warm up" period. My snakes stay on heat all winter. Spring is no different except i feed them more. i feed all my adults through the winter as well. Especially focusing on females and thinner males.
>>
>>The reason i take the males out from the females cage during egg laying is they may eat the eggs.
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>>www.Bluerosy.com
>>

OK, I understand what your saying, but what heat gradiant do you keep them at in the spring before breeding time? And you don't worry about the males getting to much heat before breeding time?
Thanks again, Bob
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

OK, I understand what your saying, but what heat gradiant do you keep them at in the spring before breeding time? And you don't worry about the males getting to much heat before breeding time?

There is no worry about the hotspot being to hot. What is important the snakes can move away from the heat and th temps of the other side oif the unit.My temps are in the 60's. Also trying to limit the hotspot for say 85F is a mistake. Then you are taking away choices again.

Check the cool side of the encloser. If you males are sitting on the heat it is because they needed it. The only way it could hurt the males is if they can't get away from the heat.

the reason you may be having bad eggs is you are miss-timing the females window to get her eggs fertilized. that is why i started keeping mine together year round. i just had a clutch hatch two weeks ago and have another clutch hatching in a a few days. that means these snakes breed at what we "think" are off times. Just 3 months ago.hmmm , that put that breeding in the middle of January when it was freezing cold 35-40F) in my snake room.

I bet those same females produce at 3 more clucthes before this year is over. That means 4-5 clutches in a year from a single female. I must be onto something here.

my point is, for breeding purposes, snakes will do best when kept in groups. Fed through the winter. And given temerature and humidity choices. I also feed them chicks but that is another subject .
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>OK, I understand what your saying, but what heat gradiant do you keep them at in the spring before breeding time? And you don't worry about the males getting to much heat before breeding time?
>>
>>There is no worry about the hotspot being to hot. What is important the snakes can move away from the heat and th temps of the other side oif the unit.My temps are in the 60's. Also trying to limit the hotspot for say 85F is a mistake. Then you are taking away choices again.
>>
>>Check the cool side of the encloser. If you males are sitting on the heat it is because they needed it. The only way it could hurt the males is if they can't get away from the heat.
>>
>>the reason you may be having bad eggs is you are miss-timing the females window to get her eggs fertilized. that is why i started keeping mine together year round. i just had a clutch hatch two weeks ago and have another clutch hatching in a a few days. that means these snakes breed at what we "think" are off times. Just 3 months ago.hmmm , that put that breeding in the middle of January when it was freezing cold 35-40F) in my snake room.
>>
>> I bet those same females produce at 3 more clucthes before this year is over. That means 4-5 clutches in a year from a single female. I must be onto something here.
>>
>>my point is, for breeding purposes, snakes will do best when kept in groups. Fed through the winter. And given temerature and humidity choices. I also feed them chicks but that is another subject .

I followed the chick story,lol
Thanks for your time, I appreciate it.
Bob Bichler
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

Bob,
Years ago I started keeping pairs (actually groups) together over Winter and into Spring. Way more effective at getting babies that way. You just let them do what they will, and they do just that.
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Mark

>>Bob,
>>Years ago I started keeping pairs (actually groups) together over Winter and into Spring. Way more effective at getting babies that way. You just let them do what they will, and they do just that.
>>-----
>>Mark
Thanks for the info.
Bob
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

Bob...
Rainer is breeding common kings that usually will produce viable sperm without any cooling (brumation)....
Your (our) montane species is different.....The males will loose viability with heat......Maybe I was/am doing something wrong, but keeping the males cool out of brumation and NO hot spot works so I am not in any hurry to change that......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Bluerosy,
Also i keep all my kings togther year round except during egg laying. You can put them together now so it is more likely you will not miss that window of opportunity when the females is ready. A good time to "bond" snakes is during the brumation period. Bonded snakes living in groups do better. I would suggest you don't don't put neonates togther. I wait until they are on hopper or small mice before i keep (or introduce)them in groups. This will eleviate any future chances of cannibalism. Start the bonding process now.

I am afraid to put my pyro kings together all year round as king snakes are supposed to be cannibals. I like your idea so reassure me I wont one morning find one big fat snake all by itself in the group home!

My 08 kings are not now in brumation; they more or less brumated themselves this winter by choosing the cooler parts of their habitats, and when they commenced eating again in February moved to the warmer part. My cabin is cool in the winter so even I can brumate should I choose (LOL)!Nobody lost any weight during the winter so I figured I'd just let them do the same routine next winter. At that time maybe I could introduce them together as a group? Like one male to two females? You said to do this bonding process now; since they can eat hoppers should I try this group thing now?

How do snakes bond, anyway? I thought the female just laid down a scent trail which the male finds, they mate, and go their separate ways.

When I look into my crystal ball, I foresee some keeper's kingsnakes being dined upon by thinking this is safe under all conditions just because they read it. Some could work fine, while some others certainly would NOT work fine. Exactly what conditions these might be for any individual cannot be guaranteed by ANYONE when housing any of the getula complex together,....simple as that.

I don't think it is good practice AT ALL to recommend to everyone(especially newbies) to throw their kings together with one another. That is my opinion, and I will never think otherwise.

I don't think there is ever much mention about the ones that WERE eaten from practicing this on a constant basis either..LOL!

Now here is something I CAN guarantee, and that is that a kingsnake can kill another kingsnake at the drop of a hat anytime it chooses to. The question is....at what point will one choose to?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I have hundreds of Florida king adults and probably a thousand all togther of Florida kings that are kept together . The eastern getula are more of a snake eater than mtn kings. So if I can do it with them imagine how easy it is for mtn kings.

When i kept Mtn Kings it was always in large groups of 4-5. Never had a problem of one eating another. Used to do this in the 70's with w/c as well and never had a problem.

There are sevaral things you must do to insure that. Even humans cannibalize if they are hungry.So my definition of a starving snake might be different from someone elses who feed their ona shedule of one mouse per week or something like that.

The bonding process also is what keeps them from eating each other. When they get to know each other there is no chance they will see each other as prey.It is when you introduce and unkown snake (like during breeding season)into anothers cage is when cannibalism usually happens. because they have not bonded you never know what they may do.

There are lots of long threads on this subject over the past 3 years. Lots of additional info if you can find the key words in the search function.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

After careful consideration I have decide not to try putting my kings together. Knowing my luck, I'd be the unfortunate keeper who finds one big fat snake in the habitat...maybe somebody got the munchies before it was time to be fed again...

This group thing is an interesting concept. So is sky diving but you wont see me doing that any time soon, either! LOL!

After careful consideration I have decide not to try putting my kings together. Knowing my luck, I'd be the unfortunate keeper who finds one big fat snake in the habitat...maybe somebody got the munchies before it was time to be fed again...

It really not like skydiving. More like creating fire or the wheel for the first time...
If you undertood the ecology better you would not have a worry.

On-top of that, Mtn Kings are much less likely to cannibalize than any other kingsnakes. They are also found in groups in the wild. I have found sevral mountian kings under a single rock slab. They are very communal.

Like I explained. It is all about the introduction. And you are much more likely to cannibalize during the breeding season when you have to put an unkown male into a females cage. However it is till unlikely with Mtn Kings. But still possible since they don't KNOW each other. Also more probable you will miss that window of ovulation. Feeling for the follicles is all you can do.

Good luck with your breeding efforts!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

On-top of that, Mtn Kings are much less likely to cannibalize than any other kingsnakes. They are also found in groups in the wild. I have found sevral mountian kings under a single rock slab. They are very communal.

Like I explained. It is all about the introduction. And you are much more likely to cannibalize during the breeding season when you have to put an unkown male into a females cage. However it is till unlikely with Mtn Kings. But still possible since they don't KNOW each other. Also more probable you will miss that window of ovulation. Feeling for the follicles is all you can do.
This makes sense to me. Some other folks here also put their mountain kings in groups. Here are the breeding pairs from my breeder:



Together, and doing fine.
I am not closed to this idea, and will consider it further. I thought if I am to do this an auspicious time would be just before brumation this coming fall. What do you think of that? Mine are summer of 08's.

I do feel like I am reinventing the wheel here. What a newbie! LOL!

I am not closed to this idea, and will consider it further. I thought if I am to do this an auspicious time would be just before brumation this coming fall. What do you think of that? Mine are summer of 08's

You should try a couple pairs just to relax yourself.Start with ones you don't care as much for. tis may be a way for you to experiment on you own and start trusting the snakes.

of course don't give up trying this fall. But anytime you put two kings together during breeding , you are taking a chance. best thing is feed the female before hand(Males usually go off food anyway during breeding season) and you can be extra careful if you want to feed them seperate.

but with Mtn kings I have not found these precautions to be neccessary.

experiment and have fun. you will enjoy them in groups more!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Bluerosy I find the keeping in groups and letting the snake choose and not us makes total sense! I'm going to give it a try...Also would this also work for milksnakes?

You should try a couple pairs just to relax yourself.Start with ones you don't care as much for. tis may be a way for you to experiment on you own and start trusting the snakes.

experiment and have fun. you will enjoy them in groups more!
Okay, I have a big pair about the same size which are 08's. Should I put them together NOW? They are both eating now, and although good sized are not full grown. I always feed my snakes in separate containers anyway. I don't think they are interested in breeding at this age right now, maybe next year. So they would have a whole year to bond before actually mating.

Also, when the female becomes gravid and ready to lay her eggs should she be separated from the group so the others don't eat her eggs? And should only one male be put in a group with the females? In most species the males are competitive and will fight for the right to mate.

Also, when the female becomes gravid and ready to lay her eggs should she be separated from the group so the others don't eat her eggs?
Yes.

And should only one male be put in a group with the females? In most species the males are competitive and will fight for the right to mate.

With mtn kings I have had two females in the cage with sevral females. Mtn kings are very comunal and it might help increase breeding success.

Mtn kings are very VERY unlikely to eat one another during the bonding process. So all this info is probably all for naught.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Also, when the female becomes gravid and ready to lay her eggs should she be separated from the group so the others don't eat her eggs?

I should also mention that gravid female mtn kings do seperate from the group in the wild. usually moving away from the rock outcroppings into the forest and finding a old wood stump, log ect to lay their eggs there. then they return to the community in the rocky outcrops.

MAKE SURE you don't mistake an ovulating female for a female that is gravid. They do expand and feel gravid. Wait 2o days to make sure she is gravid and has eggs and not follicles or unfertilized eggs in her ovum before removing the female into her own encloser with a moist area (I use a board over spaghnum.. the nesting process is important!). if she is gravid it is also good for the female to be alone and get her rest away from the other prowling kingsnakes in her cage.

Use the search function for "nesting" and read FR's post on nesting!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Okay, I have a big pair about the same size which are 08's. Should I put them together NOW? They are both eating now, and although good sized are not full grown. I always feed my snakes in separate containers anyway. I don't think they are interested in breeding at this age right now, maybe next year. So they would have a whole year to bond before actually mating.

You might find out they will breed anyway and produce eggs. How big is the female?

i have discovered by keeping in groups females ovulate and lay good eggs much earlier than we expect them to.

If they are aggressive eaters try not to put them together if one has eaten in the last 4 hours because the mouse scent might attract the other.

Also do not be alamred if one of them 9usually the male) gets frantic and tries to get away from the other. This reaction is normal for newly introduced specimens and could trigger a feeding reaction from the one that is not scared to death. Just keep and eye on them once every hour for the next 12 hours. i would also introdice them in the morning and not at night when the feeding response is highest in snakes.

Probably none of these are concerns and most is just common sense which i am sure you have.. I just want you to be informed on what might happen.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

The female weighs 115 grams. I don't think that is big enough this year to breed.The male weighs over 90 grams. I just fed her this morning and him a few days ago.

how many inches?
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Don't know; will take their photos in a couple days so I can use my Snake Measuring widget and find out how long. Just fed her yesterday and don't want to disturb her for awhile.

I wouldn't recommend breeding her at 115 grams. She would have much less chance of any complications if you waited the extra year in my opinion.

The fact that she "might" be able to have eggs(which would be thinner and more elongated)in her case to accomodate more normal volumed eggs for her smaller size, certainly doesn't mean it is best for the snake, no matter if it might be possible or happen as it many times does in nature. Quite often animal's die in nature too due to different complications, that is simply nature. Remember, you are the one in control here in this situation with the captive breeding even though she could possibly ovulate at this size.

Too many people get caught up in not having enough patience to do what might be best for the snake and only focus on producing eggs NOW! NOW! NOW!. If it is very questionable(and I think it is in this case), it would probably be best to wait until next year when her size would be much more optimum. But hey!, I've only been into snakes since 1967, so what do I know about any of them

Good luck with thing!

regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Well, that is the original whole point of my asking what is the earliest possible time a female could breed; I do not want my females to breed at too young of an age. This question had been intended for the pituophis forum but I goofed, and posted it here and it led to a lively discussion on housing breeding kings in groups. I had been concerned that my pit pairs might breed way too early even though they are very young. I've separated all the 08's.

I am in no big hurry to breed my king snakes. I have to consider not only the health of my girls but what to do with new little lives if the breedings are successful, when I finally do get around to breeding them. Many animals will breed before they are fully developed size wise. Mice, cats, even humans can breed before fully grown but these early breedings are not recommended. So I figured snakes might be like other animals in this regard.

My original plan (I think one must have some sort of plan in any endeavor) was to wait until my king girls are three full years old, and a minimum of 120 grams, preferably bigger. I will defer introducing the girls to the boys until at least the appropriate sizes are reached. I don't want to have a breeding this year for sure, as the girls are too small in my opinion.

This has been a most informative and interesting thread. I appreciate all the feed back from those who know more than I do. I am here to learn.

I think I got the mutant P.d.jani, because I was able to get my male and female to 5-feet in 2 years! Everyone has said that that's nearly impossible, but I did it feeding them multiple small meals instead of large singular meals. Also, I kept mine in the low 70's. Now I'm trying to breed them for the first time...any suggestions for a first time Pit breeder?

Mitch

My baby bulls are over 3 feet long and only 10 months old. I feed all my snakes, both kings and pits, small multiple meals, like a bunch of pinks or fuzzies or hoppers, as much as they will eat at a time, except for a couple of baby pits who tend to have eyes bigger than their stomachs and can only have one mouse at a time. I feed them often, though, so it all adds up to a good growth rate.

I don't think it is a good idea to feed snakes the biggest possible thing they can swallow. I try to duplicate conditions in a barn full of mice with lots of mouse nests. When I raised chickens there was a big rat snake that used to eat the eggs if the hens were not paying attention! I tolerated him because he also kept the mice and rats controlled in the barn.

As far as breeding your pits, the general consensus seems to be to wait until they are three to four years old. They produce enormous eggs in relation to the size of the snake, and need to be fully developed to accomplish the task of egg laying successfully.

I don't think it is a good idea to feed snakes the biggest possible thing they can swallow.

1) snakes like kingsnakes eat other snakes in the wild. So they can handle and survive better by a growth spurt from large meals.

2)So you don't think snakes constrict and try to eat prey in the wild that is to big to swallow. It happens all the time. QUIT refrequently! ..they just simply give up' and crawl away if it is to big..

3) in my exprince feeding the largest possible prey,that the snakes have a growth spurt and get the neccessary calcium and other nutrients from a more mature mouse. that is hwo I rais snakes to brede at one year old and all of them at 2 yrs.

Finally breeding these kingsnakes at a smaller size has no ill effect on later clucthes or breeding successes or longevity.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

sorry for the typos.

i wish this site had an edit function as i am mostly always in a hurry when i type.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Rainer,As a wise man once said dont do as i do /Do as i do say! Glad you had time for a rebutal on your typos ,Now go feed them Serpents

I wish I had more time to chat right now about it, but I'd better get out there and unload the big flatbed of adult rabbits I just had delivered for my colubrids!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Here is what I had delivered to tide them over for the weekend until the flatbed delivery arrived today!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

It funny you mention the rabbits because in the field in Calif i have found snakes trying to engulf rabbits which were obviously WAAAY to big. Last spring i observed a watersnake trying to eat a long dead and DRIED OUT frog it had found somehwere. Also waaay to big for it to ever get down its gullet. I wish i had my camera with me those days.

I think that is where WC rosy boas get their scarring from as well. Not ojust when they raid nests of rodents and rabbits to eat their young. But in helleva struggles they had from latching on and coiling around something they could barely kill. Yes WILD caught rosy boas have tons of scars all over them.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Yeah,....snake's aren't really aware of the size of the prey item(s) they eat. They just try their best, and if they can't after killing it and trying, they just give up like you said. And of course sometimes they just BARELY manage to get it down. And of course sometimes regurgitating very large prey even when they find suitable warm temps to try to do so.

Their tiny brains just ain't programmed for thinking or reasoning, if the chemical cue's they pick-up out of the air tells them that is suitable prey, then it IS to them until they finally figure out they can't consume it.

I have always told people......."snake's are not very smart, they just don't give up easily". Like when it takes a snake fifteen minutes to locate the head of a mouse it just killed seconds before, then wandering all over every inch of the cage trying to find it when it was always in the coils right next to their head..LOL!

They are some amazingly simple creatures, and I guess that is a big part of why I have always found them so interesting

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

......."snake's are not very smart, they just don't give up easily".

neither are all people very smart. The snakes are just not on a time schedule nor eat with a knife and fork. But they have instincts for survival us humans would never have.

Anyone claustrophobic and would like live in a small tunnel just to stay warm?

Anyone here have instincts to survive for any period of time without gasoline and the local market?

I hope we never find out but early man had a lot more on us even though their tools were primitive.

Oh wait.I'm missing my TV show. *get beer* Gotta go.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I can't really argue any of those points at all, especially about..."many people not being real smart"..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com