Reptile & Amphibian Forums

we are going to be railroaded on the rule change. This whole thing has stunk from the get go. I run into the average person (nonkeeper) on the street and they are going off of what the media feeds them and don't really want to hear my thoughts on the subject since I am a keeper. At best they are indifferent. Most of them could care less if they made it to where we were not allowed to keep anything. Even when they are informed that at some point it could possibly come down to banning dogs and cats at some point. John Q public will never fully understand us and our hobbies even though they have hobbies of their own that parallel ours on a warm blooded level. This should have gotten the involvment of all animal keepers and lovers, not just herpers. I guess that was my rant for the day.
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1.0 red phase western hognose
1.0 100% het albino columbian
1.0 pastel columbian
0.1 dub het sunglow
0.1 hypo columbian
0.1 guyana
1.2 jcp
1.0 irian jaya
1.2 normal balls
1.0 spider ball
0.1 pastel ball
1.0 granite al burm
0.1 granite het al burm
0.1 albino burm
1.0 sunfire retic
0.2 tiger retics
0.0.1 sulcata tortoise
1.0 potbelly pig (Oscar)
1.0 pug (Frank)
1.1 pit bull terriers (Marlboro & Coco)
1.0 house cat (Kitty)
0.1 wife who puts up with me

Yeah, this is just like any old govment land grab.
Now, I better understand how the Indians felt.
Praying for an encore of Custer's Last Stand.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Yes, but remember how everything came out for the indians, despite what happened to Custer. We got the mine, they got the shaft....

As I said back when this first hit the national media-our salvation lies in keeping it quiet. Once the spotlight is on, we're pretty much doomed-the general public does not, and never will, understand or sympathize with what they consider to be a bunch of "highly eccentric" (at best) people.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

For years we escaped with just small blurbs on news. But many folks do not remember when this really started to snowball, and it happened in October 2005 when the infamous Burmese python with gator was shown around the world. That caught the scientists who saw a golden $$ oppurtunity, the politicians who could hang their hat on, and for the animal rights groups who could say "I told you so all along". It just all finally came together in 2009 creating the perfect storm. I remember when FWC started holding workshops on planning on what to do with the now ROC group as far back as August of 2005. You know how many large python people attended the ones I was at? Maybe 1 or 2 each time! I'd say 50% was venomous keepers and the rest was large animal keepers. It was totally absurd.

The problem is the media now has zeroed in on this and they will stop when it's done. If the media got the current President elected, it will get pythons banned and god knows what else after..

Before that they were never taken seriously, now they will get their way in the POST AMERICA era. "With the surge of herps into mainstream America,I am concerned that negative herp human encounters will put herpetoculturists in a negative light. Regional herpetological societies must be ready to provide solutions." "Be prepared!" * The Vivarium vol.9 # 2 Feb./Mar.1997 .Vic Morgan

I was replying to the statement "if the media got this president elected" For some reason that quote was left out at the top of my post? I agree. And the perfect storm became reallity. VM

I'd go back and give the Indians automatic weapons.

"John Q public will never fully understand us and our hobbies even though they have hobbies of their own that parallel ours on a warm blooded level."

I really don't understand assertions like this.

I don't know of anyone who has more than 2 dozen dogs or cats. Or rabbits, guinea pigs, gerbils or hamsters. Unless they are actively breeding them for sale. Or they have a type of OCD that manifests as animal hoarding.

So if one decides to own seven dogs but don't breed them, that automatically qualifies them has being OCD and being a horder?

The OP has more than 2 dozen herps listed as pets.

I don't personally know of anyone who has that many mammals that doesn't run a breeding operation. Other people that I know of with that many mammals have hoarding problems. Or they are farmers with livestock (NOT pets).

So, what I'm saying is what I'm saying. Based on my personal experience and observation. To assume that I think that there are only two categories of mammalian pet owners is incorrect.

FYI. I do not run a breeding program. My wife and I are collectors. BTW We have 21 snakes and one sulcata to be precise. The rest are warm blooded animals and that does not even include the 16 horses we have.
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1.0 red phase western hognose
1.0 100% het albino columbian
1.0 pastel columbian
0.1 dub het sunglow
0.1 hypo columbian
0.1 guyana
1.2 jcp
1.0 irian jaya
1.2 normal balls
1.0 spider ball
0.1 pastel ball
1.0 granite al burm
0.1 granite het al burm
0.1 albino burm
1.0 sunfire retic
0.2 tiger retics
0.0.1 sulcata tortoise
1.0 potbelly pig (Oscar)
1.0 pug (Frank)
1.1 pit bull terriers (Marlboro & Coco)
1.0 house cat (Kitty)
0.1 wife who puts up with me

"I don't know of anyone who has more than 2 dozen dogs or cats. Or rabbits, guinea pigs, gerbils or hamsters. Unless they are actively breeding them for sale. Or they have a type of OCD that manifests as animal hoarding."

That is a ridiculous statement. You have to take into account the amount of space required to keep larger mammals PROPERLY, in addition to the far greater ammount of maintenance required with animals that eat and go the the bathroom on a daily basis. The average person living in suburban USA simply doesn't have the means to take care of a large collection of mammals, whereas most snakes require very little space to keep them happy and healthy for a lifetime. There is also FAR LESS maintenace involved. To compare those with large snake collectios to hoarders is just ignorant. Sure, there are a few of them out there, but just take a peek at some of the METICULOUSLY KEPT snakeroom pictures posted on this site and others. They certaily don't seem to fit the mold of a hoarder to me.

Brian.

A lot of people here in Fl. hunt with dogs. Not my cup of tea, but most of them keep 10 or more on average. In fact I have a neighbor who gets hassled by the county because he has 10 dogs (I think, not my property, not my business.) and apparently he is only allowed to have 5 according to some county ordinance. He moves them around so they never get to nail him.

It's not ridiculous. In fact you have illustrated my point very well. Thank you.

"It's not ridiculous. In fact you have illustrated my point very well. Thank you."

Kindly send me some of whatever it is you're smoking/ingesting. It's been a long time since I've had that type of hallucination.

"I don't know of anyone who has more than 2 dozen dogs or cats. Or rabbits, guinea pigs, gerbils or hamsters. Unless they are actively breeding them for sale. Or they have a type of OCD that manifests as animal hoarding."

I have a fish aquarium with over 25 fish in it. Does that make me an animal hoarder?

Keeping reptiles falls into a very similar category as keeping tropical fish, for me at least.

According to Wikipedia ( iknow not the best source, but):
Animal hoarding involves keeping higher than usual numbers of animals as pets without having the ability to properly house or care for them, while at the same time denying this inability.

The comparison made by the OP was to mammals, and not fish.

OK, thanks for clearing that point up for me!

Steph, I have long claimed these animals are artificially maintained captive wild-type animals (generally used for display), and not Pets. One major appeal is the extremely low maintenance and the mimimal space they require. Most people refuse to agree. It's the "Pets" moniker that gets us into trouble. Great for marketing, but not reality in my opinion.
Nothing but bullets for the AR crowd's big guns. Example: "Turtles do not make good pets". Agreed! They do make good captives, though. I consider them non-traditional exotics. Same as tropical fish. A collection of non-traditional exotics (reptiles) can indeed be very rewarding and an enriching experience.
Unfortunately it is the sophomoric "Boxie" and "Cali King" mentality that line up to be used and manipulated by wildlife officials. This is the "Pets" crowd at it finest. These people assume their credentials by association, not by expertise or accomplishment. Like I said, regulators love all the support they can get from these non-authorities, for the appearance of peer consent and approval, thus validating their agenda.
Not that I'm speaking for the gentleman you mentioned, but I do believe he breeds those animals and I don't think he considers them "pets" in the strictest sense of the word. He will have to respond himself to set the record straight.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I agree with much of what you said above.

I also got the message and the answer is nope. More than once.

That's mostly because it's harder to care for 2 dozen dogs than it is to care for two dozen snakes - or two dozen turtles. Some bird lovers (NOT breeders or hoarders) have two dozen birds easily (thinking of finches mostly).

Katrina

>>"John Q public will never fully understand us and our hobbies even though they have hobbies of their own that parallel ours on a warm blooded level."
>>
>>
>>I really don't understand assertions like this.
>>
>>I don't know of anyone who has more than 2 dozen dogs or cats. Or rabbits, guinea pigs, gerbils or hamsters. Unless they are actively breeding them for sale. Or they have a type of OCD that manifests as animal hoarding.

People don't really think of it in this sense but many animals are social in nature and it is really not proper to keep them individually.
Dogs are an excellent example dogs are wolves. Wolves are pack animals an ideal pack in the wild consists of 5 to 7 animals in better conditions packs contain even more members than that. that is certainly not feasable for most people in an urban setting but in a rural setting it certainly is and provided they are cared for properly they would certainly benefit from the arrangement. I found out a long time ago that dogs do much better if you keep more than one (for the record I currently have 2.). The ordinances out there that limit the number of dogs to one or two certainly do not take this into consideration and are drafted by animal rights activists who in my opinion based on having worked with such individuals have very little working knowledge of about the actual biology of animals.
The finches you mentioned are another good example. Many birds live in flocks or in the minimum live in pairs and most of the behavioral problems with birds are the result of keeping them as individuals. It would be much wiser to think a small group of birds as one entity than to think in terms of having a dozen finches.
Personally when I bred basilisks I kept them in harem type situations of 3 to 5 individuals as they seemed to do better this way (they certainly bred better that way.). I never thought of them in terms of individual basilisks but always thought of them in terms of a colony.

TALK ABOUT A TIME MACHINE. Lets go back to, a little herp History. Its all the fault of Zoo's.(kidding of cource to be PC) Collections were representations of the ranges of snakes. A Zoo might boast of having all the Western Rattlesnake species. People read "Snakes and snake hunting" "The keeper and the kept" It was before captive breeding. Captive breeding was a natural progression of what we now call herpetoculture, NOT HORDING. I would say for the better, as wild reptiles were captured by the thousands for Zoo's and Instatutions that put them in Formaldehyde. Before that people collected Stamps with pictures of different snakes! VM

I remember the day. The culture has a history and it has evolved (for the better). That is an important point to make.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer