Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a few random thoughts regarding the invasive herp issues in the Sunshine State currently, and perhaps ways we as a community could help be part of the solution.

1.) Burms--Our industry's biggest problem right now. We NEED to help control this problem. They are in the glades because they were brought here to satisfy our industry, like it or not. I think an interesting idea would be for the NRBE's auction this year go to irradication efforts of feral burms in the Glades. It is a conservation effort, and large cash or even in-kind donations to this effort; if properly advertised, could help our hobby tremendously, especially in terms of political heat.
Also, USARK and other herp keeper orgs could set up charities to raise money to help with control efforts, even doing online donations on websites like this one could raise money too. Alleviating tax payer burden by giving money to irradication programs could help us gain the support of John Q. public.

2.)Niles--same ideas, just toward nile monitor removal efforts in Cape Coral and other affected areas. This issue is just starting to attract media attention and we are in a good position to make ourselves look good by being part of the solution. We don't even have to give money here, we could help by educating people in Cape Coral about Niles and asking them to report sightings, roadkills, etc. I believe this problem is small enough right now irradication efforts could be successful.

3.) Other herps (boas, AfRocks, cane toads, etc.)--Again, we should help any way we can with irradication efforts. It would help us gain public support.

Let's face it, many folks see the spending of taxpayer money on invasive species removal as irritating at best. If we were to help take over financial responsibility, we could gain a lot of support. There, I'm off my soap box for today.

(on an aside note--shame on the Florida FWC and the National Parks Commission for not setting up charity programs of there own for these issues--they want to [bleep] about cost and don't ask a concerned public for help, shame shame.) Now I'm done.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. We also need to tighten up our defense--we need to put ourselves in the AR groups and junk-scientists shoes, and think of how they would attack us. We need to police ourselves by identifying any potential problems in the herp industry and nip them in the bud, because like Brad Chambers said, once herp problems get into the media, we get owned.
I'll try to give an example. I don't know how the import business works, and whether or not these animals are farmed, but I see Russian tortoises at PETCO every time I go in there. All my local pet shops carry them. I'm assuming most of them die since PETCO knows less about reptiles than Bill Nelson does, and that could be a potential point of attack for AR groups: "Oh these herp people are causing the extinction of these tortoises--lets ban them all to save them!" Not sure if it is valid, but it is just a thought.
Bottom line, we need to shore up our weaknesses.

Interesting thought regarding Petco; I don't think they should sell herps period, given the aweful care they receive(and aweful care advice Petco gives, for that matter). That would never happen of course, but putting pressure on the giant retailers to use only CBB animals would be a good way to start a positive PR campaign for the industry as a whole. They look good, we look good, etc.

Niles--same ideas, just toward nile monitor removal efforts in Cape Coral and other affected areas. This issue is just starting to attract media attention and we are in a good position to make ourselves look good by being part of the solution. We don't even have to give money here, we could help by educating people in Cape Coral about Niles and asking them to report sightings, roadkills, etc. I believe this problem is small enough right now irradication efforts could be successful.

Before the burms the Niles were getting all the attention, Everything in your above statement was done and the end result was the AR groups used all the information to try attack private owners.

The idea of making ourselves look good by going after another segment of the trade is not a smart one. The whole have my cake and eat it to mentality.The entire pet trade had better start coming together and sticking together. Everything is a potential point of attack for AR groups. A lot of the ideas sound nice but ultimately wont do anything more then help these groups make their point. There's nothing wrong with promoting responsible ownership, improving international trade methods, pet care husbandry, etc., but these ideas must be carefully thought out in terms of presentation.

Nothing is unimpeachably honest, You wont see a single AR board member, conservation society member, scientist or politician that is on the anti ownership/trade band wagon take a shot or question the actions of anyone else who has sided with them, on the other hand private owners are constantly pointing the finger at the people who are on their side. Cutting their own throats. The pet trade and its supporters could really learn a lesson from the "other side" about what it means to have a unified front.

Below are a few lines from a recent news article that was printed in the ST. PETE. TIMES. I think it sum's up some major points pretty well as to the what these bills are all about. Those with an interest should read it and think about what it says,

The week before, when the bill was presented to a different House committee, members noted their approval with a tongue-in-cheek: "Yessss."

"It's a good year for these kinds of bills," said Janet Bowman of the nonprofit environmental group, the Nature Conservancy, "because they don't have fiscal impact."

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

"The idea of making ourselves look good by going after another segment of the trade is not a smart one."

I don't think he was saying attack the trade? but that we should destroy feral specimens. I agree. I also am having trouble believing (forgive if I'm wrong) that if they ban some snakes they will eventually ban all reptile pets. I just don't see anything to draw this conclusion from... :O

It seems to me, that with burmese, retics, anacondas (sp.) OFF THE TRADE we will have more respect from the mainstream community? no? unacceptable? ok... How about licenses for breeders and permits for owners? Do we actually have any plan of action at all? other than, we must be able to keep all of them? let's appease some politicians, imo we have to act somehow people are upset. Nobody (aside from the reptile community) cares if the burms were blown out of their cages by a hurricane into the wild (hurricanes come every few years to the same place do they not?), or any other way they can be displaced - they are just not going to care. Why not make "constrictor licenses"? I'm pretty sure it would make reptiles MORE popular... and it would appease washington as a plan of action.

It does suck that boa constrictor is on that list... i rather like them and burms as well.. but we can't keep burms, too much publicity. Anacondas have NEEDED to be illegal to trade for years, so have retics and all venomous. You just should not have something like that, it's the opinion of.... oh... just about everyone but a snake-lover.

Just laugh it off, here in Kansas my friends 93 year old grandmother has a Quaker parrot and it's 17 years old. She thinks its the coolest thing ever bc right after she got him, quakers became illegal in kansas. (pretty retarded reasons, just like here). Point? THEY ARE MORE POPULAR HERE NOW THAN EVER! Everyone passes up every other bird and goes to Missouri to get a darn Quaker! BC they are illegal, and therefore cool!

We need to make a united front. This whole thing started long ago as other posters have pointed out. It started with large primates and big cats and none of the reptile people cared (or the bird people fish people etc.) because it didn't concern them. I'll even bet some of them thought it was great that it was someone else getting thrown under the bus instead of us. Now it's our turn and those people who kept primates and mammals who could have been are allies aren't there.
BTW the animal rights activists are starting with big snakes but they won't stop there. Next it will be monitors.Then it will be something else. They do the same thing with dogs today the red-headed stepchild in the dog world is the pit bull they all want to ban pit bulls when they succeed with pit bulls they will move on to rottweilers and then onto something else until dogs are banned all together. If you were to ever read animal rights literature you would see that they compare pet keeping to slavery. They also do things like publish the names and addresses of people who buy animals they don't approve of in there publications. I assume that they do this in hopes that some of their members will show up at their residences and do God-knows-what to these people. Perhaps like the anti-abortion activists(domestic terrorism???). To give you an example I am aware of an Amish farmer in S.E. Pa. that apparently purchased some Emus from an animal auction. I do not know his name or address nor would I put it here if I did. How do I know that? I learned it from reading one of their publications when I worked at a humane society full of those nuts.
I post alot on the burm forum. For the record I no longer keep large snakes I used to keep burms and green anacondas. I still keep Water monitors (and will continue to do so no matter what laws they pass) which for the moment are not on the radar here in fl. or on the federal level. I know it is a matter of time. If I was to move back to N.Y. state with animals I actually bought in N.Y. (15 yrs ago.) I would be a criminal right now. That's kind of ridiculous. As someone else in this thread mentioned those people don't attack each other but keep a united front. we need to do the same.

I agree! Let the AR groups do the finger pointing... we can do better.

The Reptile Nation should be advocating for peer reviewed science, animal husbandry best practices and public education concerning exotic reptiles and amphibians.

The Reptile Nation should also use its considerable aggregate knowledge to become a trusted authority on the care and keeping of exotic reptiles and amphibians. The propaganda voiced by the AR groups and repeated by gullible politicians and the media should also be debunked at every opportunity.

Lastly, the Reptile Nation must not allow the AR groups to marginalize our interests. We must include every reasonable person and organization in our fight with sayings such as "If laws can be passed based upon flawed science, then no one is safe." and "This fight is not just about having an exotic pet - this fight is about the right of anyone to have a pet whether that pet be a snake, a fish, a bird, a cat or a dog."

Why in the world do you think ONLY AR groups want constrictors illegal? :O

AR groups want the use of any animal to be prohibited, not just reptiles. This includes animals for food, pets, research, film, hunting, fishing, sports (e.g. horse and dog racing) and the use of assistance animals for the deaf and blind.

Of course there are others who have phobias and misconceptions about reptiles, but it is primarily the AR movement that is pushing for an end to our hobby to further their own agenda.

Ok, first of all let me say that I do not want for your hobby to go away. That understood I would also like to say that I'm kind of an environmental rights kind of guy. BUT I'm not animal rights bc I believe the key for a lot of animals survival is to be captive bred AND I do believe that reptiles NOT ONLY tolerate, but enjoy the company of their owners.

That said, yes! take the smudges off of our hobby! I'm still failing to realize this apocalyptic "remove all pets" thing... but you know... I believe 9-11 was an inside job, so to each his own conspiracy theory (Oh noes the AR the AR). Why are nile monitors allowed to be kept in the first damned place? Are you kidding me? Can we make the Green Iguana illegal (permit only, something) so that noobs will stop killing one of my favorite animals? But still, the first time I saw this bill I saw "to list pythons (and select boids) as an injurious species"

How are they not an injurious species??

On the other side! (since i love to debate) I love cyclura lizards, and if a python is an injurious animal, then a cyclura is too! (more so? *lol*...) That is why i would like permits, if they made my cyclura illegal.... well then I would have a bunch of illegal lizards and be a sad panda... but who in the san heck is going to inspect me? "sir your excessive purchase of collard greens is unheard of away from the deep south (lol), may we inspect your house?" that would suck, but they would have no idea lizards were banned. I'm sure they would walk right back out just like they do when they are in a room of illegal Quaker Parrots!

You can't just sit here and say "they can't take this from us!" That's what bothers me, I'd be on your side but this stance just has never worked. You have to let something go!

Because, Um... yes they can too take your snake privileges... and apparently they're gonna if you don't come up with a compromise. An actual plan of action? instead of just protesting like hippies?

About permits, they do sound like good idea but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

as we have seen here in Florida good ideas are not what the opposition to the reptile trade wants. When it was first proposed that full bans on exotics be enacted here in Florida, the reptile trade got together and bent over backwards to work out a viable solution that would please everyone. State wide work shops, sitting down with everyone and trying to come up with a good plan of action to address the various concerns. Everyone had their say ..................

The end result was permits, micro chipping and inspections. Before the agreement even went in to effect the opposition side stepped Fish and Game at the state level and went to the federal government again asking for an all out ban. Now within no time, Florida is again looking at a full ban both at the state and at the federal level. Unless a permitting system is devised at a national level and has provisions that will offer the holder a fair amount of protection at the state level, a permitting system will not solve anything. The trade will just keep seeing repeats of what is going on here in Florida.

Compromise is not what those who oppose the reptile trade are looking for and its not what they are going to settle for. Giving up something might be a short term solution but it will not be a cure for the activist disease. Playing outlaw pet owner might be acceptable for some but for the people that want to have legitimate above board collections and businesses this is not an answer, forming a unified front and actively defending your ownership and business rights is not "just protesting like hippies?" its the American way and the way many industry's have defended themselves from activist groups. Banning together and showing up, letting everyone know your not just going to roll over and beg is the best actual plan of action, from there you can start working on the other things. Its easy to give a nice Rah Rah speech but will anyone listen or act? Who knows but to this point the trade has not matched the drive and determination of the activist and that is why things are where they are and not because of pythons and lizards, its all about achieving goals. The activist are reaching theirs, can the trade rally? I don't think its to late but like I keep saying everyone has to be on board and going the same direction.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

In the town I live in any "python" (specifically, someone didn't mention that boids are a different thing in this case either) must be kept under 6' in the city limits. So I'm used to people having illegal "python (sp.)" "eunectes boids" and "boids" in their basements all around me. I lived in an agricultural area and therefore was not affected, but I still have a state-level dangerous animals permit. Why? (sure as hell doesn't do anything for me lol) Because my dad made me get one right about the same time as I got my "hunter's safety" (don't hunt though) and various other things I had attained as a small boy. I've kept them up since and I'm proud of it. I'm not going to point out my beliefs on "regular people" owning large snakes, I think u understand my position. Be proud that you are a herpetoculturalist, be proud of the idea that I think u need a permit. I'm certainly not trying to agrivate you. Crocodilian keepers and monitor keepers (idk maybe even my cyclura lizards and iguanas) are not for the average HERPKEEPER even.

As far as the difference between owning a legally obtained reptile or a black market one, my stance on that was not properly positioned with my jokes. I believe in reptile breeders everywhere (and captive breeding in general) and keepers as well

That's what bothers me, I'd be on your side but this stance just has never worked. You have to let something go!

And this folks is how it is that indians USED to live in Kansas.

Very nice guys. You know what else used to live in Kansas? Cave bears and bison! (farm a few miles north of me has a herd) Just food for thought, no point intended, someone said Indians USED to live here? I know tons who currently do... Indians lived all over America and now the Cherokee call Kansas home (obviously Oklahoma is their HQ) rather than the native Kaw (Kansa). Very sad. However I know a lot of Indians from Haskell Indian Nations University (Lawrence, KS. my alma mater is located here as well, KU). We also made war on another state (missouri) and were the only state to do that. We released our slaves BEFORE Lincoln made his speech (first state to do it). And we were the only inaugurated during the civil war (bc we were beating hell out of MO)

Ok. Dorothy, Toto, wizards, Jayhawks, tornadoes. Glad we got that out of our system! Back to snakes. *rolls eyes* I don't want any more facts coming in about my state, youve probably never been here (and why would u?) but it's my home. What will I do? um... write my congressman about snakes maybe? srsly, don't be an asshole I'm a person too. ppl already think snake people are a-holes, why reinforce that on me?

What I still don't understand is: Why is it your inherent RIGHT to own venomous and large snakes? It's not. It's up to the American people to decide your rights here, yes there will be more attacks on herps, but without dangerous animals.... then who cares? that's all I'm saying... sorry if I'm offending I'm honestly just trying to understand you all. It makes me wary the YOU are all FUNDAMENTALISTS who won't allow any change, AND the AR groups are obviously FUNDAMENTALISTS in their ways. So no Compromise? Doesn't sound like good news for yall.

Sounds like someones gonna have to bomb the other bc this is reminiscient of middle-eastern conflicts i have studied. Nobody wants to give an inch so nobody wins.

God, I love the intelligent discussion here.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

"can we please move away from the generic use of terms like "python" (as you used above) and "constrictor" (as you've used before in proposing controls) and restrict this debate to specific species?"

I understand and apologize It's just that no "one" species is under attack here. I also understand the need for compromise, my OPINION is that if we compromise with these guys once, we can beat them the next time around much easier and with a newly conscripted group of pissed off snake-owners. I may be wrong. Sorry for the "rah rah" speech.

The one thing we learned from fighting California Fish & Game is "NEVER compromise" Make them show proof of their data.
Michael Luhrs

Same in Fl. Hows that ROC compramise work'in out.for us VM

I agree. In my experience compromise has not worked. It just gives opponents more leverage and more incentive for their agenda. If you say - "Well yes, we could do that a little better.", they don't take that as good faith compromise. Just an admission of fault and a sign of weakness.
That's what sucks about all this. They are not interested in good faith solutions. Just an agenda.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Yeah man lets just sell them manhattan for some blankets and a song I mean we have the WHOLE rest of the continent.

"Pythons" in general are not going to bring about the downfall of the Everglades and Western civilation. The *Burmese* python, some would argue, might.

Partner, you are right. (although i thought retics were supposedly breeding there too? before the supposed freeze from heck? might be making those hybrids lol! they are sterile though right?)
Beg pardon.