Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone. I just got my first snakes. They are a pair of southern pines. The male is normal het albino and the female is albino. i got them both for $125. Tell me what you think. Thanks!

Your first snakes are S. Pines! Great choice. Those are beautiful especially like the normal male. Have fun with them!

Good stuff. How old are they? Great looking snakes. I'm no expert on the price of S. Pine morphs, but $125 sounds like a great deal.

reako45

I don't quite know the age they are 3 foot and are ready to breed at 4.5 ft. I can't find southern pine snakes for sale hardly at all. Cheapest I find normals were $75 and albino's $125 and Size wasn't specified so I'm guessing juveniles. He was just wanting to clear the snakes out for an albino hognose project. Thanks for the comments!

Hello,Hey it looks to me that the normal looking snake is not 100% southern pine,I've seen lots of s. pines and that one looks like it has bullsnake genes in there.The head resembles a pine, but the pattern and coloration of the entire body "SCREEM" bullsnake.I think others will agree.Still,I'd say you got them for a good price!Hopefully no offence was taken about my observation!! Alan

no offense taken. If you are correct I shouldn't take offense and if you are wrong, hope you are . Here is another thread of another guy calling his snake a southern pine and looks exactly like mine http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1760482,1760482

another: http://www.outdooralabama.com/watchable-wildlife/images/Florida Pine Snake_Dan_Hipes2.jpg

and another: http://www.coastalplainsreptiles.com/Images/Animals/Snakes/Pituophis/melanoleucus/mugitus/Scott Matthew Quint/VolusiaCo,FL - Female.jpg

last: http://duvalherps.tripod.com/floridapine1.jpg

I think it is a southern pine I think they just have something of the same pattern. I see what you mean I looked at some bull snake pics and they do look similar. I appreciate your input and could some other people confirm what I have. Thanks!

Kyle

Hahahah, that's my pic of my S. Pine normal ))...but it does NOT look exactly the same. Most obviously, notice the "unravled", speckled look to the pattern on the anterior third on mine. That is a big S. Pine thing. The blotch count looks too high also with much closer spacing but you can't get a full count from that pic.

Stull states that P. s. sayi (as it was grouped in those days) has "more that 40 dark spots in marked contrast to the light ground color throughout the entire length"

btw, the blotch count is neck to vent.

S. Pine, mugitus, "never more that 40" and "anterior spots usually indistinguishable from the brown ground color".

Let study this some more and see what we get, but we need more pics.

Yup- all those links to pictures you posted definitely look like southerns for sure...

I'd post pics of mine to compare, but they're all patternless...

Here's a picture of one of my wild caught sonoran gophers:

//Todd

Ya know, I just looked at the snakes again before reading your post and yep, that ain't no regular S. Pine. Looks mostly Bull but the blocthes with the light centers toward the rear just before it goes out of the frame looks just like my S. Pine normal...in either case, it is a very handsome pit.

To Kyle (assume that's your name). Please be sure not to represent that or it's offspring as a pure mugitus.

Anyway you could get more pics, especially a closeup of the head?
It's a very interesting snake, what ever it is

I will take more tommorow

another

another

Thanks for the new pics. Well, sure doesn't look like more than 40 blotches, even total...but sure don't look pure S. Pine either. My mind is S. Pine / Bull cross. Sure hope some others offer opinions...great study whatever.

In my "opinion" it doesn't look like a pure mugitus. If they are siblings, and "if" the normal one is not pure, niether would the albino. But, regardless, nice looking animlas. Why when purchasing animals, we need to put the seller through the 100 questions first.

Dan

that was a question I asked the seller. They are unrelated. He sells some lizards to a reptile store owner and the owner is huge into snakes and I'll just go up there and ask him what he thinks it is and if he says not southern pine I'll probably be able to get all my money back. Thanks for the help guys.

I said the exact same thing when I saw the pics of that pair.

The pattern/colors resemble a bull/sonoran gopher to me, too...

//Todd

this guy got taken...

Very nice. While my tastes tend to lean towards wild types the albino Southerns are one of the few pit morphs I like.

is the person you got that snake from the breeder?if not try to find out who is and ask them questions about it.if they are worth anything at all they will tell you exactly what it is.its a shame you cant take anyones word anymore.

Well doesn't look like I can get my money back on these guys. He is telling me they are what he sold them to me as. I believe you guys and looked at some pics and there is something wrong with my snake. Another excuse he told me was he doesn't know how I have taken care of them since I got them. I just fed an adult mouse and Honestly I think I am doing better then he did because within 5 minutes of me putting water in the tank the female was gulping water down and didn't stop for a little while. He told me he'd call me back but I think the chances of me getting money back is low. It is a shame first snakes I get are the wrong thing. I will NOT even make offspring between these 2 snakes nor will the male get sold as a pine. Thank you everyone for telling me before I got to selling the babies and ruined my reputation for good. Take care!

Kyle

Hold on there Kyle, I understand you upset and frustration, but those are beautiful animals and that male is especially interesting so, even though I personally commend your preference for pure specimens (as much as you can get in the hobby) try taking them for what they're worth on their own merit.

I too have a situation very similar to yours in that I purchased a supposed pure LA Pine which it turns out is a result of outcrossing years back. I was going to bred him of course and purchased a nice pure female to go along. Once I found out he was tainted though I determined not to breed him at all and traded off the female. BUT, he is a stunning animal and has become a really fun pet. btw, I spent many times what you did on the two together! I'll say one more thing, because of all that I know a heck of a lot more than I did then. Twists and turns and little dramas are part of what makes a hobby fun anyway

Here's a pic of the guy. I call him my WTF Pine...

LOL- your 'WTF Pine'!!! That's great, and he's AWESOME!

Kyle- I agree 100%! Those are beautiful snakes you got there, and either way, you got pituophis- careful, they're contagious! (I started with 1 and now have 6 with 2 more on the way!)

//Todd

Man That is a Nice Pine, It's gotta top the list of thee most "Beautiful" Pine i have seen. I know im new to this post, but have been into Pine's off an on for 25 year's..You alway's have some of the best post's...I build some pretty (killer) cages,one was 8x2x17"and i put that FRP material inside, I had a 8-foot female about 4 year's ago inside it...Your collection must be pretty nice...(im jealous)..LOL..

Hello again. So is there no possible way it is southern pine? I went to the reptile store today and he said it really resembles a southern pine just with slightly cooler colors. Do these snakes ever vary some or are they all pretty similar? I found a pic on the internet that highly resembles my snake. Thanks again guys!

here is mine

one more

Hi Kyle,

That pic is no doubt pure mugitus to me. Guess you just have to scrutinize more pits before you get the difference before it's obvious.

I'm no expert but the most obvious issues to me are the well-defined anterior saddles and side blotches as well as their center color, the mid-body ground color, the head shape and color.

Aside from my own opinion, just about everyone else has suggested the same.

The saddles on the posterior half are reminiscent of S.Pine but to me that's all.

As for the albino, that looks S. Pine to me but I don't pay much attention to those so my opinion there is worthless.
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Have a nice day

Website: SerpenTrack

..your animal has very little in common with the photo you found on the internet. As a rule, a pure mugitus has little discernable pattern for the first 1/4 to 1/3 of the body; your animal is well patterned from the neck to the tip of the tail. In addition, your animal is lacking the bulk seen in Pine Snakes; that,the numerous saddles and the elongate head are suggestive of an animal from further west, though there may be some Pine Snake genes in there. The second photo you posted (from the Kingsnake classifieds), is a Pine Snake, and again shows little in common with your animal. Being new to this you need to work very hard and see many specimens to learn about these animals; to some folks they all appear similar until one's eye becomes "trained". The chances that the seller doesn't know much about this animal are high, and not at all surprising; it seems that there are a lot of "experts" on Pituophis nowadays, but not a lot of folks who know anything about them.

Bart

Very nice compliment, thanks. I guess I do have some nice animals for a newbie. The rest is up on my website in my signature.

Anyway, I'd love to see pics of the eight footer and the cage to. Sounds pretty nice! What is "FRP"?
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Have a nice day

Website: SerpenTrack

Me again! So these must not be southern pines either then

his "southern pines" look near exact to mine I can't find any difference between my snake and his. I have more pics and I am not seeing a head size difference. This snake was chosen from the breeder because of its looks and was only sold to me because he was getting started on something a bit more profitable, albino hoggies. Sorry guys I'm just not wanting to give up on this guy> I am going to call the guy tomorrow, the reptile store owner talked to him wile I was there. Thanks for the comments on how he is a beautiful snake and I couldn't agree more. I love your WTF pine and I do see more pits in my future
Link

"So these must not be southern pines either then"

Not sure which ones you mean?

Anyway, you can put all my opinions in the trash, but when Bart Bruno chimes in I would listen carefully. In fact, take that to the vendor ...and if he doesn't know the name, well...maybe he should stay with hoggies.
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Have a nice day

Website: SerpenTrack

To the origional post here,I'm guessing your name is Kyle,nobody wants to bust your bubble here.It's just not possible that the animal in question is a southern pine.In fact there is no question at all that it is atleast half bull or sonoran gopher,or one of the western pits.It could have some pine genes in the mix,but as Monklet just said,if your talkin' about pits there is one guys opinion about something like this that you shouldn't try to dispute,that would be Barts opinion.Sorry but it is not a s. pine. Alan

Hey you guys,sorry for the mixup,(i boneheaded)my reply..My main intention was to praise (monklet) for that sweet (pic) of his WTF pine..That i think is thee most beautiful pine i have seen, that yellow is un-real...Im the real-newbie to this post....
Anyway that big female nor-pine i had, she would stretch out in front of her cage, and would almost touch both ends, about 2-in shy,..she died a year ago, and i got outta snakes, but ready to get back in. ..P.S. Im 49 an still a little slow with the comp..LOL....

here is the "so these must not be southern pines either" link was/is on the bottom.
Link

Hmmm, that one doesn't look classic to me but that's where I got mine from (which looks quite different) and Mike's been around along time and knows way too much to try to pass something off and screw his reputation.

...and yours just doesn't look anything like it anyway, sorry

Here's my '09 Isis...love this snake.

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Have a nice day

Website: SerpenTrack

Agree again with Monklet- that is definitely southern pine, and looks nothing like yours.

Isis has an excellent reputation in the hobby and wouldn't mis-represent something like others out there do.

Here is my leucistic southern I got from Isis:

//Todd

First, that's an awfully poor photo, but the yellow coloration and well-defined pattern are more suggestive of a Northern. I've contacted a number of these breeders over time and none ever seem to have locality data; one even went so far as to ask me to help them identify a snake that they were already listing on the classifieds! Regardless, it's not suggestive of the animal you have.

Bart