Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Old Lyme - The lengthy list of exotic animals the state is considering banning as pets includes several that should be allowed and are not necessarily dangerous, exotic pet owners said Tuesday at a state Department of Environmental Protection forum on draft regulations that would make the import and private ownership of many types of wild animals illegal.

Among the exotic pets cited by attendees as not necessarily dangerous were wallabies, some types of pythons and some but not all types of anaconda.

The DEP will use the comments from this forum and two others to revise the proposed rules before a final version is submitted to the state legislature for consideration, Rick Jacobs, acting director of the DEP's Wildlife Division, told the 20 people in attendance.

The rules were written after the highly publicized attack by a pet chimpanzee on a woman in Stamford highlighted the need to clarify and tighten state laws regarding possession of wild animals considered dangerous to humans, native wildlife and agriculture. Possession of chimpanzees and other primates was banned last year, joining wild dogs, bears and wild felines.

The new list of animals that would be banned includes: wild boar and warthog; hippopotamus; alligators; several types of poisonous snakes; Gila monsters; Komodo dragons and crocodile monitors, among many others. Exceptions would be made for licensed animal exhibitors, zoos, nature centers and other professional animal handlers.

One speaker, who identified himself only as Jonathan from West Hartford, said some of the animals on the list, such as the reticulated python "are far less dangerous than animals considered domestic."

Because it was a forum and not a public hearing, the DEP did not require speakers to give their full names.

"It is a large snake, and it can be dangerous to people, but no more than your neighbor's dog," the West Hartford man said. "There are lots of people who own some of the reptiles on this list."

Allison Sloane of Deep River took issue with banning all the types of pythons and anacondas on the list.

"I've owned several, and if handled correctly" they are good pets, she said. Her yellow anaconda, for example, curls up next to her as she watches television, she said. She added that she has taken in and cared for several reptiles others acquired as pets and were unable to care for.

Several speakers suggested current owners of animals that would be banned should able to legally keep them with a grandfather clause, but Priscilla Feral, president of Friends of Animals in Darien, disagreed. She called on the DEP to evaluate the living conditions of some of these animals before they are given permission to keep them.

The DEP will receive written comments through March 31 at: jenny.dickson@ct.gov. For information, visit: www.ct.gov/dep/cwp/view.asp?Q=456710&;A=3847

www.theday.com/article/20100317/NWS01/303179892/1019&town

j.benson@theday.com

"Several speakers suggested current owners of animals that would be banned should able to legally keep them with a grandfather clause, but Priscilla Feral, president of Friends of Animals in Darien, disagreed. She called on the DEP to evaluate the living conditions of some of these animals before they are given permission to keep them."

Must be the only sensible person in CT. If anyone in CT happens to have a wallabie or warthog... they had better have some kind of permit. I mean wth get a potbelly or better yet, a dog.
I'd be interested in finding out how many of these animals have even DECENT homes/habitats.

This isn't really a win-win. Herps were saved yes, but should the public have access to all of these exotic animals?

"Decent home/habitat" is? animal rights groups? Or the real experts, those who have maintained and bred these animals for many generations.

As long as animals are not treated cruelly or pose a REAL danger to the public or the environment, it's none of the government's business what the private keeper maintains.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Why is everything AR, AR, AR..?

Have you ever thought that people within the pet trade would like to see some reform? gain some respect from PEOPLE not these "experts" or animal rights groups. Some animals should be illegal and I (yes, this is an open forum, and I'm expressing an opinion) for one believe that it is the governments "business" because who else is going to tell some schmuck that wants a wallaby that it belongs in Australia?

I have no idea who decides this, apparently in CT that lady has volunteered herself?

Again with the "it's our right" bullcrap... wow you guys really are fundamentalists.

look over my post, and point out where I used the word "rights".

I'm not claiming a right for myself, I'm denying a "right" of the government.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Where do you come from? Have you ever even heard of the constitution? What gives you or anyone else the right to say only you are good enough to decide what should be kept. I would suggest you go back to school and study our form of government. I’ll just paraphrase one of the most important parts. Power not given to the government by the people shall remain in the hands of the people.
Michael Luhrs

Lol. What gives you (or the community here) said right? Let's make it a people's vote then? I wish things still worked like that but they don't.

We don't put rights to a popular vote in this country (luckily for a LOT of folks). Rights for individuals and responsibilities for the government are enumerated in our Constitution. Said constitution says nothing specific about exotic animals, fish, birds and reptiles, so we have to fall back on the "pursuit of happiness" guarantee. Clearly if you wish to infringe on someone's legitimate hobby or interest, there MUST be a strong, compelling societal interest.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

If there wasn't a strong compelling societal interest going on here would we be talking about this? Any talk of reform for the reptile trade is just pushed right out of the window here. This has become the snake-rights forum instead of a "herp law discussion forum".

When I try to talk about how I feel about "herp laws" I get all kinds of feed back about infringing on people when I could care less about what YOU have in YOUR collection. I'm fighting to keep other people from being able to get their hands on venomous, crocodilians (if there is a good pet here, let me know. can't think of one) and monster-sized reptiles. Im not saying I should enforce or decide anything, but this forum has been awfully one sided.

In other words, it's my forum too. It's not just the "patriotic snakekeeper forum". It's also the "reform the laws so we don't get this bullcrap anymore forum" if the people who post here want that. You can't just push us around and say "we're losing our patience". I don't give a damn about your patience, and you don't give a damn about mine.

Quite a few species of Crocodilians can make fine captives for prepared keepers.

Various Caimains, and indeed, American Alligators are often manageable sized, and are not uncommon as adults in private collections.

Just because you can't manage it, don't put that on others who can.

Why do you think folks shouldn't be allowed to keep venomous or crocodilians? I'm a privare person yet I once owned a permitted Croc Farm and bred 11 species of crocodilians including hatching hundreds of Crocodylus rhombifer. In fact I don't think anyone or any Zoo has ever duplicated my success in species bred. My smallest enclosures were about half an acre and my largest was over 5 acres. Why would I be denied a permit to have crocodilians based on your assumption that I don't have the ability to keep them safely and successfully? In over 35 years of selling and handling thousands of venomous snakes I only suffered 2 bites and both were thru bags NEVER when handling them. Only one bite was suffered by an employee and was his error because protocal wasn't followed. Your making assumptions that aren't based on real knowledge or on anyones ability because you simply don't know enough about the Industry and many of the folks involved...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"Said constitution says nothing specific about exotic animals, fish, birds and reptiles, so we have to fall back on the "pursuit of happiness" guarantee."

Where in the US Constitution do you find anything outlining the legal right to pursue happiness?

That particular phrase appears in the Declaration of Independence.

Common mistake.

Ya really, if your hobby is aviation... you get a pilot's license! You might even get to go to flight school and get a real education in your hobby.

If you like to hunt, you get a hunting permit for the animal/season you like to hunt. You also must make sure your guns and bows are legal, and right for the game you are hunting.

Fishing, same thing, and if you want to fish in the neighboring state (at least where I am) you must get a license there.

Scuba diving has to be licensed/permited in America, but I did it in New Zealand and Australia's Gold Coast after a 1 hr. crash course as a tourist, they don't even require that. Do they have more scuba diving deaths? probably not, I don't really know BUT do they have more diving culture? probably.

These are hobbies which are considered eccentric endeavors, by some. And I'm sure a bunch of people pissed and moaned about having to get licenses in their time.

SCUBA and Flying are hazardous undertakings in which others besides yourself are put at risk-and thus the societal interest in regulation. Breeding boa constrictors is hardly comparable.

Hunting and fishing are not analogous to herpkeeping-they involve removing or at least utilizing a resource from the commons-thus the license fees, proceeds of which go to maintaining that resource. To the extent that the domestic herp hobby removes herps from the wild, we ALREADY pay license fees and observe bag limits, etc for that privilege.

I'm not arguing against ANY regulations-if you had been here longer, you would remember past posts in which i personally have advocated various moderate reforms (such as a partial import ban). But these must be based on sound science, not emotion or "feel good" justifications.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

"SCUBA and Flying are hazardous undertakings in which others besides yourself are put at risk-and thus the societal interest in regulation. Breeding boa constrictors is hardly comparable.

Hunting and fishing are not analogous to herpkeeping-they involve removing or at least utilizing a resource from the commons-thus the license fees, proceeds of which go to maintaining that resource. To the extent that the domestic herp hobby removes herps from the wild, we ALREADY pay license fees and observe bag limits, etc for that privilege.

I'm not arguing against ANY regulations-if you had been here longer, you would remember past posts in which i personally have advocated various moderate reforms (such as a partial import ban). But these must be based on sound science, not emotion or "feel good" justifications."

Why do you think I'm talking about boas? This is the HERP law discussion. Lot's of herps should be controlled IMO.

Some herps are venomous and I can see no reason to keep them, other than to milk them for the needed anti-venom (I'm not saying that everyone should milk their snakes, but that it's just as INAPPROPRIATE to own one as it is to own a TIGER). If you own a monacled cobra and it bites me, my hospital is going to have to let me die while they FLY monacled cobra anti-venom to me. I don't find this an acceptable risk in society! Add to that the fact that MOST americans don't find ANY snakes to be acceptable and you have a serious quandary, even with your boa constrictors.

Collecting is already taxed and you pay money for permits, but that's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm pretty sure (not positive) that you are technically supposed to have a permit in this state to collect morells! (idk the spelling, the brainy looking delicious mushrooms)

My opinion is that import/export should all but stop (as near as we can get) the low demand for these things can be fulfilled by current breeding efforts.

I actually agree with your last statement-though not for the reasons you probably do.

As for venomous-one analogue to SCUBA diving is that it is a risk an individual takes on himself-certainly one that could be regulated, but also one that should never be banned. As long as such snakes are kept in locked, escape-proof caging in locked, snake-proof rooms, then they, like guns, should be perfectly legal for qualified individuals to maintain.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

"These are hobbies which are considered eccentric endeavors, by some. And I'm sure a bunch of people pissed and moaned about having to get licenses in their time."

Hmm, the problem I see is that that system apparently hasn't worked either. Florida is a GREAT example. They used to have (purely in my opinion) one of the best systems for permitting exotics.

It then all went to hell, was revamped, and now they are going ban crazy.

So far, no other single state that I know of has tried a permit system anything as extensive and reasonable as Florida had, and I can't see a single state coming up with anything the least bit reasonable anytime soon.

We have to obtain liscences now so what's your point?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I didn't say it was in the constitution-but I can see where I might have implied that. My bad.

Arguably, the Declaration is at least as important as the Constitution, and the right to "Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness" is right there at the beginning for a reason. Notice also how "Pursuit of Happiness" seemingly coequal with Life and Liberty. Evidently the founding fathers considered it pretty darn important.

In fact the "Bill of Rights" was only added as an afterthought to the Constitution itself.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

As a guiding philosophy, perhaps, but not as a legal principle. And rightly so.

With our founding documents, as with many other issues, context is very important.

Just to be clear, do you also think the Right to life and liberty should not be construed as legal principles?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

As outlined in the US Constitution, of course. What an extraordinary question.

People can construe anything, in our earlier days it was construed as "well the slaves don't get this stuff, that affects our happiness negatively!" ---- and of course, that is a bunch of crap.

Not extraordinary at all, let's not play dumb, shall we?

My point, of course, (if you need it spelled out) is that the founders thought that these right's were so obvious and "inalienable" that they had no need to codify them-so they should be considered, by us, as MORE important than those written into the constitution, not less-if a conflict in interpretation is to arise.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Context, context, context.

The way our founders defined Life and Liberty would probably shock you.

All property owners, enjoy rights, powers, privileges and immunities in the particular thing or things they own. Animals are ethically and legally regarded as property and, as such, our rights as property owners are protected under the Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution. 

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.
 

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Without due process of law. Important little tidbit to bear in mind.

You've missed it again. Look at what I said in my post or better yet try reading the constitution. I don't do well with People who believe the all-powerful government should protect us from ourselves.

StephF,

Yep, it's a common mistake...However, in a continuation of the Declaration of Independence under inalienable rights (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness)...You will find it expressed in the state constitutions…Here are 15 examples…

Idaho State Constitution: “Article I, Declaration of Rights, Section 1. All men are by nature free and equal, and have certain inalienable rights, among which are enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing and protecting property; pursuing happiness and securing safety.”

North Carolina State Constitution: “Article I, Declaration of Rights, Section 1. The equality and rights of persons. We hold it to be self-evident that all persons are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, the enjoyment of the fruits of their own labor, and the pursuit of happiness.”

Georgia State Constitution: “Article I, Bill of Rights, Section I, Rights of Persons, Paragraph I, Life Liberty, and Property. No person shall be deprived of life, or property except by due process of law.”

Delaware State Constitution: “Preamble, Through Divine goodness, all men have by nature the rights of worshiping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences, of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring and protecting reputation and property, and in general of obtaining objects suitable to their condition, without injury by one to another; and as these rights are essential to their welfare, for due exercise thereof, power is inherent in them; and therefore all just authority in the institutions of political society is derived from the people, and established with their consent, to advance their happiness; and they may for this end, as circumstances require, from time to time, alter their Constitution of government.”

Washington State Constitution: “Article I, Declaration of Rights, Section 3, Personal Rights. No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.”

Arizona State Constitution: “Article II, Declaration of Rights, Section 4, No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.”

New Jersey State Constitution: “Article I, Rights and Privileges, 1. All persons are by nature free and independent, and have certain natural and unalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and of pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.”

Indiana State Constitution: Article I, Section I, Inherent Rights, WE DECLARE, That all people are created equal; that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that all power is inherent in the People; and that all free governments are, and of right ought to be, founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety, and well-being. For the advancement of these ends, the People have, at all times, an indefeasible right to alter and reform their government.”

California State Constitution: “Article I, Declaration of Rights, Section 1. All people are by nature free and independent and have inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.”

North Carolina State Constitution: “Article I, Declaration of Rights, Section 1. The equality and rights of persons. We hold it to be self-evident that all persons are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, the enjoyment of the fruits of their own labor, and the pursuit of happiness.”

Alabama State Constitution: “Article I, Declaration of Rights, Section 1. Equality and rights of men. That all men are equally free and independent; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

Maine State Constitution: “Article I, Declaration of Rights, Section 1. Natural rights. All people are born equally free and independent, and have certain natural, inherent and unalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and of pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.”

Texas State Constitution: “Article 1, Bill of Rights, Section 19, Deprivation of Life, Liberty, etc; Due Course of Law. No citizen of this State shall be deprived of life, liberty, property, privileges or immunities, or in any manner disfranchised, except by the due course of the law of the land.”

Louisiana State Constitution: “Preamble, We, the people of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, economic, and religious liberties we enjoy, and desiring to protect individual rights to life, liberty, and property; afford opportunity for the fullest development of the individual; assure equality of rights; promote the health, safety, education, and welfare of the people; maintain a representative and orderly government; ensure domestic tranquility; provide for the common defense; and secure the blessings of freedom and justice to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution.”

Louisiana State Constitution (Continued): “Article I, Declaration of Rights, 2. Due Process of Law Section 2. No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, except by due process of law.”

Nevada State Constitution: “Article 1, Declaration of Rights, Section 1. Inalienable Rights. All men are by Nature free and equal and have certain inalienable rights among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty; Acquiring, Possessing and Protecting property and pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.”

Later,
Jim.

PS: You have to be a lawyer to find it within the Constitution of the state of New York though...
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CSRAJim

The average person does NOT have the knowledge to make any decision regarding wildlife as most are biased and terrified of any creepy-crawly..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

IM 25! LOL.

"Where do you come from? Have you ever even heard of the constitution? What gives you or anyone else the right to say only you are good enough to decide what should be kept. I would suggest you go back to school and study our form of government. I’ll just paraphrase one of the most important parts. Power not given to the government by the people shall remain in the hands of the people.
Michael Luhrs"

I come from South-East Kansas, near the Quapaw tribe's res. and Joplin Missouri. The intersection of highways K7 and US400.

Yes, I have as good of an idea of the constitution as anyone else, likely including you.

I'm not saying I should decide, only that I believe in some form of regulation.

Power not given to the government by the people, shall remain in the hands of the people. --- yep, the people elect the congressmen to represent the people, and they are currently deciding how to enforce your reptiles. STAY TUNED FOR WHAT "THE PEOPLE" SAY!

Really, it's none of your business how old I am or where i'm from, this is a forum where I can say whatever I want if it's related to herp laws, and I don't think I've been overly offensive.

No just Arrogant.

Yup.

Fact is, exotics get out. Sometimes by accident. Sometimes they are deliberately released by people who don't know any better, don't understand the ramifications of what they're doing, etc. etc.

Some of these exotics live long enough to do damage to humans domestic animals and local wildlife. They may be venomous, aggressive and dangerous, carry diseases or compete for resources. They can become safety and health problems.

What happens when these animals become a problem? Citizens call the authorities to address the problem. The government. Local, state, or federal. Taxpayer funded government.

If the government is going to be on the hook for the removal, abatement, control or whatever, then maybe they should be responsible for deciding what is legal to own.

Unless of course the reptile 'community' gets it's collective crap together and addresses the very real problems created by irresponsible owners, dealers, etc. who helped create some of these problems in the first place.

Are these irresponsible parties in the minority? I sure hope so. But frankly these are the people who are messing things up for the rest of us. Frustration and anger should be directed at them, and not necessarily at the officials who have to assume the responsibility for fixing the damage done.

Next, we should be asking ourselves what can we do in the way of prevention. And what we can do to clean up after ourselves. And what we can do to police ourselves.

What if owners pay the Govment a removal, abatement, mitigation, control fee (to a specific fund for said purpose) as part of the registration process?

Would that be acceptable?

What if they bought Liability Insurance and/or provided proof of financial responsibility?

Would that be acceptable?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

"What if owners pay the Govment a removal, abatement, mitigation, control fee (to a specific fund for said purpose) as part of the registration process?

Would that be acceptable?

What if they bought Liability Insurance and/or provided proof of financial responsibility?

Would that be acceptable? "

I'm simply suggesting some kind of license. Liability Insurance packages for reptiles is an intriguing idea, but I don't think it's necessary after all theres none for dogs. However, if you own more than 6 dogs in the city I live next to you have to have a permit or they take them down to 6 for you.

Actually, many homeowners insurance policies either won't cover or charge significantly higher rates to insure households with what they refer to as "high risk" breeds of dog. German Shepherds, Chow-Chow, Rottweilers, Pit Bulls and possibly others (Dobermans?) are on the list. Insurers may well require added liability coverage for owners of these breeds.

Also, many localities limit the number of dogs one can own without a special permit.

And then of course dog owners are required by law, in densely populated areas at least, to keep their dogs on leashes or in fenced yards or pens on their property, and to purchase a yearly license as proof of rabies vaccination. No biggie for us dog owners.

You should live where I do. If your dog is on someone property where it doesn't belong the locals just shoot it.

A more complete list:

* Akita
* Alaskan Malamute
* Chow Chow
* Doberman Pinscher
* German Shepard
* Pit Bull
* Presa Canario
* Rottweiler
* Siberian Husky
* Staffordshire Bull Terrier
* Wolf hybrid.

* Wolf hybrid.

They are referred to as Wolfdogs not wolf hybrids since technically wolves and dogs are the same species Canis lupus. The term wolf hybrid will make you look uneducated to those who actually deal with them to any degree. It's kind of like referring to timber frame construction as "post and beam" .

>>A more complete list:
>>

Actually that is a pretty small list. This is the list of known breeds with either insurance or legislative bans against them in the US.

1.AIREDALE TERRIER
2.AKBASH
3.AKITA
4.ALAPAHA BLUE BLOOD BULLDOG
5,ALASKAN MALAMUTE
6.ALSATIAN SHEPHERD
7.AMERICAN BULLDOG
8.AMERICAN HUSKY
9.AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER
10.AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER
11.AMERICAN WOLFDOG
12.ANATOLIAN SHEPHERD
13.ARIKARA DOG
14.AUSTRALIAN CATTLE DOG
15.AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD
16.BELGIAN MALINOIS
17.BELGIAN SHEEPDOG
18.BELGIAN TURVUREN
19.BLUE HEELER
20.BOERBUL
21.BORZOI
22.BOSTON TERRIER
23.BOUVIER DES FLANDRES
24.BOXER
25.BULLDOG
26.BULL TERRIER
27.BULL MASTIFF
28.CANE CORSO
29.CATAHOULA LEOPARD DOG
30.CAUCASIAN SHEPHERD
31.CHINESE SHAR PEI
32.CHOW-CHOW
33.COLORADO DOG
34.DOBERMAN PINSCHER
35.DOGO DE ARGENTINO
36.DOGUE DE BORDEAUX
37.ENGLISH MASTIFFS
38.ENGLISH SPRINGER SPANIEL
39.ESKIMO DOG
40.ESTRELA MOUNTAIN DOG
41.FILA BRASILIERO
42.FOX TERRIER
43.FRENCH BULLDOG
44.GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG
45.GOLDEN RETRIEVER
46.GREENLAND HUSKY
47.GREAT DANE
48.GREAT PYRENEES
49.ITALIAN MASTIFF
50.KANGAL DOG
51.KEESHOND
52.KOMONDOR
53.KOTEZEBUE HUSKY
54.KUVAZ
55.LABRADOR RETRIEVER
56.LEONBERGER
57.MASTIFF
58.NEOPOLITAN MASTIFF
59.NEWFOUNDLAND
60.OTTERHOUND
61.PRESA DE CANARIO
62.PRESA DE MALLORQUIN
63.PUG
64.ROTTWEILER
65.SAARLOOS WOLFHOND
66.SAINT BERNARD
67.SAMOYED
68.SCOTTISH DEERHOUND
69.SIBERIAN HUSKY
70.SPANISH MASTIFF
71.STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER
72.TIMBER SHEPHERD
73.TOSA INU
74.TUNDRA SHEPHERD
75.WOLF SPITZ

There are also locations that have bans against dogs over 50 lbs.
URDog Listing from RDOWS

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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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OMG I think I saw my name on your list

The list of native wildlife pushed almost to extinction by the actions of California Fish & Game is long.

Some animals should be illegal and I (yes, this is an open forum, and I'm expressing an opinion) for one believe that it is the governments "business" because who else is going to tell some schmuck that wants a wallaby that it belongs in Australia?

Please take a moment to examine the many assumptions which underly the above statement.

Some animals should be illegal

Which animals? On what grounds? Illegal to whom? Who decides these questions? You?

I for one believe that it is the governments "business" because who else is going to tell some schmuck that wants a wallaby that it belongs in Australia?

Do you, personally, know ANYTHING about the status, habits, care, or pet potential of any wallaby species? Are you claiming that only animals which have already been domesticated can be legitimate companion animals? Gerbils have only been common domestic pets for a few decades-are gerbil keepers "schmucks"? Most fish are not domesticated at all-are fish hobbyists "schmucks"? Where do you draw the line? Who decides? If you say "the government"-why should we believe they have more expertise in this than the folks who have been keeping, breeding and-yes-loving these animals for decades or centuries?
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

This is insane, just because a wallaby (for instance since I made that trap for myself) can be a pet, then it should be?

No I don't decide these laws. Do I think it could be someones job, yes.

"This is insane, just because a wallaby (for instance since I made that trap for myself) can be a pet, then it should be?"

Why not? If the person keeping the wallaby is capable of keeping it well, and can provide for it...what is your problem with that?

I know they are captive bred in the united states, specifically AS pets, including albinos.

This whole thread is pointless.