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This male was sold to me as a triple het Honduran; he is now in the blu however he has always looked different then my other Hondurans even his brothers and sisters. I took some pictures and hope you all can help me put my mind at ease.

I would say that he is the runt of the litter, however he eats great and have had no issues other then why is he so different looking in size/visually then the rest?

*Large images

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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

Though it's hard to say with 100% certainty, that animal looks to be a tricolor “hobby” Honduran. ? I don’t see any evidence of campbelli, nelsoni, or any other “out of the way” forms in your animal, if that’s what you’re asking. What about it is making you suspect otherwise? Do you have photos of any of its siblings?

I’m sure you’ve read enough on this forum to understand that the majority of Honduran Milks in the hobby are a mixture of various neighboring subspecies (as defined in Williams 1978 and Williams 1988). Also note, however, that his description of the form hondurensis in 1978 was based on a handful of specimens, that there was/is great phenotypic overlap with neighboring forms, and that the form’s designation was viewed critically by many contemporaries in the field. It has been recently indicated that current research suggests many of the Latin American forms should be (will be) sunk into one form (likely polyzona).

-Cole

L. t. oligozona - Salina Cruz, Oaxaca, Mexico (likely an intergradient population) - Photo of one of my animals by Dell Despain

Well put Cole, I would have said the very same thing.

And the "oligozona"?,....no question at all about stuarti influence!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Agreed - it's been suggested that oligozona, as a whole, should be regarded as an intergrade zone between conanti (assuming one accepts it as a subspecies) and stuarti (assuming one recognizes it as distinct from polyzona), with some areas showing heavy campbelli influence. Locality data means a world of difference for these critters, and they're nothing short of fantastic!

I've had some pretty in-depth conversations on this topic with Scott, Jeff, and a number of triangulum researchers. It's such fascinating stuff! Those who see triangulum regularly in the field on Mexico's Pacific Coast have some wonderful insight gleaned from their observations.

-Cole

L. t. oligozona (likely intergrade) - Salina Cruz, Oaxaca, Mexico. Detail of head, showing the snout band in a V shape.

Oh yes!,......I agree once again!..LOL!

The whole thing is very interesting and extremely complicated. Seems like the more one knows about these snakes, the more confusing things can get.

I have also had many great conversations and correspondences with Scott and others about them, and I find it quite interesting to say the very least(as I'm sure you do too).

Here are a couple VERY probable authentic "oligozona" I had from many years ago that I hatched(a good 15 years ago). I can only kick myself square in the butt though now for not keeping them all and propagated more of the same. The w/c import mother died soon after laying the eggs which I did hatch successfully. I hatched six, but only have pics of four of them sadly. And NO pic of the freakin mother either. That really bends me out'a shape too!

Scott showed me a tagged locality museum specimen years ago that looked absolutely IDENTICAL to the ones I had in every single meristical detail...........oh the pain of them being gone forever!........arrrgh!

These all had 16 to 17 RBR, and were the most genuine looking Scott has ever seen anywhere. I see alleged specimens in many books that don't even come close to what they are described as being merisic-wise, and makes me simply go......huhh???..LOL! I mean the name "oligozona" itself refers to them having "few bands" as I'm sure you are already aware of.

Who knows what the future of taxonomy will bring?. Perhaps a bit MORE confusion too I think!..hahahaa!

Take care Colester!

~Doug




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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Though it's hard to say with 100% certainty, that animal looks to be a tricolor “hobby” Honduran. ? I don’t see any evidence of campbelli, nelsoni, or any other “out of the way” forms in your animal, if that’s what you’re asking. What about it is making you suspect otherwise? Do you have photos of any of its siblings?
>>
>>I’m sure you’ve read enough on this forum to understand that the majority of Honduran Milks in the hobby are a mixture of various neighboring subspecies (as defined in Williams 1978 and Williams 1988). Also note, however, that his description of the form hondurensis in 1978 was based on a handful of specimens, that there was/is great phenotypic overlap with neighboring forms, and that the form’s designation was viewed critically by many contemporaries in the field. It has been recently indicated that current research suggests many of the Latin American forms should be (will be) sunk into one form (likely polyzona).
>>
>>-Cole
>>
>>L. t. oligozona - Salina Cruz, Oaxaca, Mexico (likely an intergradient population) - Photo of one of my animals by Dell Despain
>>

The thought in the back of my mind was just that and I understand that at some point in the history of hondos species got mixed, I recall hearing that is how amel came to be in hondos. And why locality isn’t an important factor when it comes to these snakes. He just looks less like a hondo to me then say the other siblings. Below is an older photo of his sister. Its a funny site to see how small he is compared to the rest of my stock.. Lets just hope he can produce..

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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

"And why locality isn’t an important factor when it comes to these snakes"

To be quite honest, I think locality is one of THE most important factors(along with meristics of course) in helping identify true hondurensis. There are only a small handful of known locality hondurensis in the hobby today.....RIGHT SCOTT BALLARD??..LOL!

I think I know what you meant here though, and that is that now matter where they once actually originated from in the decades of import, they all are certainly not all 100% hondurensis. It just cannot be with all the outcrossing that has been done with most of these animals. Not to mention were imported from certain areas and collected in far different areas too due to political issues.

I go into this with great detail on my website too for anyone that cares to read about it.

These "hobby" Hondurans can pop out different looking traits here and there that more resemble their other past genetic influences from some of these other ssp., along with a certain amount of variability that has to be accounted for anyway.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Why wouldn't he breed? Size means nothing. If the male is sexually mature (and healthy), and the female is cycling, he will breed.

You may want to think about what you will do with the babies. Not a huge market for normal hobby hondurans. Just some advice from someone who was in your shoes many years ago and ended up with lots of pet snakes as a result, lol. No complaints really on my part, but these are different times in the hobby.
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Mark

there are several raised eyebrows regarding origination of morphs in the various milk subspecies. Some on this and other forums know my thoughts and reference to this as "The Colonels Secret Recipe" LOL!! So, when dealing with multihets, having an "oddball" showing up in a clutch once in awhile shouldn't surprise ANYONE. It goes back to what several herpers have been preaching - No matter how phenotypically perfect you get a morph through backbreeding, line breeding, etc., those non subspecies genes lurking in the soup can rise to the surface at any time. Its like I have also read on this forum about references to five and six foot pueblans. This is no disrespect to those breeding and cultivating these morphs, or any thing of that nature. Its just the way it is and as long as you want to deal with "special recipe morphs", apparently you need to be prepared to have something like this come out of a clutch.

This leads me to another interesting thought. Has anyone ever gotten a WTF out of a whitesided line or other morph lines? Maybe a whitesided brooksi that looked kinda ratsnakeish, or vice versa?

Kevin,.....

And certainly not just limited to any of the Hondo morphs that were ever in question either. No way possible all of the countless thousands of NORMAL central American milks that were imported over the many years could have even remotely all been 100% authentic hondurensis, not to mention all the countless intergrades that certainly had to be in the mix too. It just ain't possible. these were all captured and imported from many different places of origin in totally different parts of Latin America, put in boxes, and shipped out as something they closely resembled. Sure there had to have been many genuine ones in there too over the course of all this. That would only be logical too. But what were any of THOSE all bred to over the decades??..LOL!

Life goes on, but the majority of the hobby Hondos will always remain what they are. And logically some key-out much better than others meristic-wise, this only makes good sense too.

It's just the way it is people.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

but it looks a lot like a male triple het I sold you about 2.5 years ago:

Along with his clutch mate, a female triple het:

Both the triple hets were from a male Ghost to a female Amel that was supposed to be het Anery.

I also sold you these two beauties (from the same Ghost sire to a female Hypo Het Anery):

I don't know why you would question what you received from me since I supplied you with all this information once before. The only thing I don't have is actual video of the snakes copulating.

I tell you what Jason...if you're unhappy with your purchase, I'll buy them back from you!

LMFAO...I'm glad I keep records of all my stuff!

Thanks to Cole and Doug for keeping people straight...I just don't have the time nor the energy anymore!

-Rusty

Shown below is the Ghost sire, the Amel dame, and the triple het clutch hatching.

Looks like that evidence could hold up in a court of law Rusty..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

As you already know Doug, I keep my stuff straight!

By the way...I actually have video of my first copulation of the year...and yes, I'm talking about my Hondos!

HA!

-Rusty

"By the way...I actually have video of my first copulation of the year...and yes, I'm talking about my Hondos!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!,....OOOOHHH!!,too funny!

Yeah Rusty, no question at all about your knowledge of genetics, and what makes what. You have riddled-off some genetic combinations in our past conversations that I even had to pause and think about..LOL!

As a matter of fact, we will both definitely be talking more about those genetic combinations VERY soon indeed!..LOL!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Great borders and picture Doug!

-R

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>but it looks a lot like a male triple het I sold you about 2.5 years ago:
>>
>>
>>
>>Along with his clutch mate, a female triple het:
>>
>>
>>Both the triple hets were from a male Ghost to a female Amel that was supposed to be het Anery.
>>
>>
>>I also sold you these two beauties (from the same Ghost sire to a female Hypo Het Anery):
>>
>>
>>
>>I don't know why you would question what you received from me since I supplied you with all this information once before. The only thing I don't have is actual video of the snakes copulating.
>>
>>I tell you what Jason...if you're unhappy with your purchase, I'll buy them back from you!
>>
>>LMFAO...I'm glad I keep records of all my stuff!
>>
>>Thanks to Cole and Doug for keeping people straight...I just don't have the time nor the energy anymore!
>>
>>-Rusty
>>
>>Shown below is the Ghost sire, the Amel dame, and the triple het clutch hatching.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Everyone that I know in this hobby and I even believe that even you said your self has been burned once. With that being said he is different from his siblings and the rest of my stock, and different allot of times in this hobby can be a good thing. You know as well as I do on how much money I invested into these snakes, as you stated I did purchased those two from you and a few more in fact and while I would hope that you be willing to help me out if and when I needed it, I guess that might be an issue. He will sire two triple hets as he is one himself so I hope you can understand my concern. And BTW rusty these guy have been nothing but problem free and as before I thank-you for your time. While true I am fairly new to breeding I have owned/raised snakes all my life so I have seen this hobby from many angles and I don’t like getting burned, so I ask if you weren’t sure wouldn’t you have asked for another opinion as well?
I never once said that because of his size he won’t breed I just hope he does!
And trust me Rusty I HAVE ALL the information you provided me as I keep very detailed records something you need to do in this hobby.
Rusty, “Both the triple hets were from a male Ghost to a female Amel that was supposed to be het Anery.” What do you mean by supposed to be?

Doug you started the conversation talking about a hobby Honduran, with my reply I was continuing that conversation about localities and the non importance placed on the hobby Hondurans.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

>>>>but it looks a lot like a male triple het I sold you about 2.5 years ago:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Along with his clutch mate, a female triple het:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Both the triple hets were from a male Ghost to a female Amel that was supposed to be het Anery.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I also sold you these two beauties (from the same Ghost sire to a female Hypo Het Anery):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I don't know why you would question what you received from me since I supplied you with all this information once before. The only thing I don't have is actual video of the snakes copulating.
>>>>
>>>>I tell you what Jason...if you're unhappy with your purchase, I'll buy them back from you!
>>>>
>>>>LMFAO...I'm glad I keep records of all my stuff!
>>>>
>>>>Thanks to Cole and Doug for keeping people straight...I just don't have the time nor the energy anymore!
>>>>
>>>>-Rusty
>>>>
>>>>Shown below is the Ghost sire, the Amel dame, and the triple het clutch hatching.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>Everyone that I know in this hobby and I even believe that even you said your self has been burned once. With that being said he is different from his siblings and the rest of my stock, and different allot of times in this hobby can be a good thing. You know as well as I do on how much money I invested into these snakes, as you stated I did purchased those two from you and a few more in fact and while I would hope that you be willing to help me out if and when I needed it, I guess that might be an issue. He will sire two triple hets as he is one himself so I hope you can understand my concern. And BTW rusty these guy have been nothing but problem free and as before I thank-you for your time. While true I am fairly new to breeding I have owned/raised snakes all my life so I have seen this hobby from many angles and I don’t like getting burned, so I ask if you weren’t sure wouldn’t you have asked for another opinion as well?
>>I never once said that because of his size he won’t breed I just hope he does!
>>And trust me Rusty I HAVE ALL the information you provided me as I keep very detailed records something you need to do in this hobby.
>>Rusty, “Both the triple hets were from a male Ghost to a female Amel that was supposed to be het Anery.” What do you mean by supposed to be?
>>
>>Doug you started the conversation talking about a hobby Honduran, with my reply I was continuing that conversation about localities and the non importance placed on the hobby Hondurans.
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>>Jason A.
>>"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
>>

>>Rusty, “Both the triple hets were from a male Ghost to a female Amel that was supposed to be het Anery.” What do you mean by supposed to be? Scrap that question...
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

that next time you would come on here questioning something about a respected individual's practices, you'd have some evidence to back it up. The "I think it looks different therefore it must not be" argument is not really a case. Lots to be learned. Rusty's a pretty patient guy.

I have had the good fortune to know Rusty personally over the past few years and can say that he is nothing less than genuine. It goes without saying that through his honesty, good morals and overall character that he is and should always be regarded as an elite member of our group of true milk snake affeciandos. He, along with many others, will always have my upmost respect, simply because we share a common bond; ultimately, we are passionate about the animals and appreciate those who truly share in that passion.
His honesty should never be challenged.
Nathan Wells

All you guys know me, so it's great to have that core group of great people to back me up.

Thanks again,
Rusty

I agree with Nathan. As long As I have known Rusty, he keeps better records than I do. I would trust his word in any animals I got from him.

That hondo is KILLER!

And thanks for the kind words!

Can't wait to see what you produce this year!

-Rusty

An amel bloodred corn(Fire)??..HAHAHAHAAA!

later buddy, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I appreciate your comments sir!

-Rusty

and completely the reason behind my thoughts on lineage and record-keeping! Nice looking animals, Rusty!

-Cole

I only have a few things (just plans at this point) for this year...I hope things turn out the way I think they will!

Stay Tuned!

-Rusty

looks like a hondo to me.
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com