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Eimon Mar 18, 2010 02:29 PM

Don’t Feed the Trolls! Are you kidding me? Quit wasting valuable time with these two saps. First, let me say that to some extent I forgive them for their naivety, ignorance, and stupidity- simply because of an utter lack of experience, understanding and comprehension. They haven’t lived long enough, or developed the necessary skills yet to define the reality of life and living in it. With that said, a lot of us have completely fallen into the oldest “forum trap” there is. Just look at the amount of time that has been spent on “convincing or converting.” People, use that time for the real needs of the challenge! Changing the opinion of two “forum names” is not going to accomplish anything! Absolutely Nothing. It’s a classic diversion of time, energy and resources. Get buried in the preoccupation of the constant release and display of the minutia of details. Ad infinitum. Seriously, we should be way smarter than that by now.

Buster and Steph- Here’s the real deal, like it or not. Originally, since I never play “forum ping pong” with what constitutes a bucket of rocks, I was just going to blat out a couple of comments. But, I decided to at least try once first, and then leave the parting shots at the end.

Most of us engaged in this endeavor have lived on the earth and in this county two to three times as long as you have. Contrary to PC assertions: yes, that gives us seniority. We have experience, perspective, and knowledge which you don’t even know exists yet. Not to sound superior or condescending, it’s just the fact of the way it is. Another PC fallacy- opinions can’t be wrong because they are just opinions. Uh, WRONG. Opinions based on nothing more than YOUR own criteria (which includes limited, lacking, incomplete, uninformed, misunderstood, etc, etc, etc- knowledge, understanding, experience, etc, etc, etc) are just that. Feelings, nothing more than feelings.

This battle started years and years ago. Literally about the time when you were born. 25 to 30 years ago, no one gave a rats behind if anyone kept snakes or reptiles. Nor what kind they were. Not the government or society. Yeah, if you did you were considered “different” but so is anyone that strays from the boring, bell curve of “the norm” at any given time. Now it’s headline news? Sure, because reptiles have not just entered the mainstream, they’ve actually dominated in their own many ways recently- because now a lot of people have them, and now a lot of people know about them.

Just the facts, ma’am. If only it could/would be based on anything even close to that.

“License this, license that, legislate this, legislate that.” Oh, I feel better…..better get a bucket. Are you really that dumb? Ever REALLY thought about that? WTF do so many things need that? Oh wait, lets create a need, then create a structure, then create some revenue, then create a sustained system, all at someone else’s expense. Sound familiar? Probably not. Give yourselves a few more years; it might sink in if you’re lucky.

The Constitution, Declaration of Independence, the History of this country. Sure we all have interpretations of what the content means today. But the core foundation principle of the genesis of this nation, was and is- disagreement, then rebellion of the then current systems (political, social, intellectual) to ENSURE individual FREEDOMS of persons. Finally accomplished with untiring strength and conviction, our forefathers went to any length and endured every trial and tribulation along the way, to pass on this noble ideal. We should all try honoring that, at the very least in spirit. Especially when just a shadow of it’s former importance remains tangible today.

Compromise. While in actuality it’s a perfectly workable, useful and necessary function at times (especially within personal, social and business constructs) and even arguablely a vital weapon, ur….. I mean mechanism in function of political machination- the essence of the result (politically) seemingly has value, but the reality is never to the true benefit of the concessionair. Hummm.

Steph- you claimed to be here to gain knowledge and understanding of the current topic(s) being discussed. Here’s a hint- STFU and you might have a chance.

Buster, my dear Buster- what a character you are…LOL! Get Over It.
You’re small (meant figuratively, not literally), and greatly affected by your own negative contacts. So, you want the rest of the world to sink to your level (lowest common denominator) to make you feel adequate. Good luck with that.

To some of the others with some well thought and presented ideas and suggestions- most are good, but unfortunately they would have been viable about 5 to 10 years ago, not now.

And to those few on here who have continually always grasped and understood the task at hand: either by experience, thought, action or otherwise- I hope you know that none of this is directed at you, but merely underscores and supports the very same. Now, quit wasting time and get back to work, damn it……LOL

PS- just for fun, there are 3 “entertainment media” references infused in this diatribe. Extra points anybody………….

Replies (25)

luhrsreptiles Mar 18, 2010 02:37 PM

Could not have said it better myself

jscrick Mar 18, 2010 03:13 PM

I'll do my best to heed your good advise.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

busterlimes Mar 18, 2010 03:34 PM

"Buster, my dear Buster- what a character you are…LOL! Get Over It.
You’re small (meant figuratively, not literally), and greatly affected by your own negative contacts. So, you want the rest of the world to sink to your level (lowest common denominator) to make you feel adequate. Good luck with that. "

Great I'm a small animal right's activist bc I don't believe that certain species should be kept in captivity. I honestly don't know who is worse, the people who think domestication is inherently evil... or the Pet-Owners Rights activists here at KingSnake who are all "apparently" much older and wiser than anyone else in the world. They actually believe it is their right to keep ANY animal under glass. Boggles my little mind.

jscrick Mar 18, 2010 03:48 PM

I did not think the relevant others would take your advice. I was right.

"The students won't listen...Nothing sinks in...They just want to behave rudely and talk back with their smart comments." Too funny!!!
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 19, 2010 06:25 AM

Buster do you honestly believe based on some of your own statements that you're old enough and experienced enough to make a decision on what should and shouldn't be kept? Mike Luhrs like myself have been in this as a proffession for almost 40 years. That's a long time. Upscale on this forum has been a herper just about as long. What you consider hard or dangerous we consider childsplay. I think of cleaning my dangerous elapids about the same way I do on drinking coffee in the morning. I'm careful not to spill the coffee and get burned and vice versa but I've done it so long it's second nature. I'm training a young inexperienced Firefighter here to get his venomous liscence as he aspires to work for Venom1. Scott [Venom1 Firefighter] was here and met Alex the other day and I put in a good word for Alex as he is learning quickly and has aptitude. Honestly you have not enough experience in life much less with herps to be able to make those kind of decisions because their likely based on your one experience or perhaps just seeing a herp and letting your imagination run wild. In other parts of the world, like S.E. Asia for instance, the older more experienced members of a community are looked up to and used for guidance in daily affairs. You seem to believe for whatever reason that we're Dinosaurs and shouldn't be given consideration as we are by many on these forums. We have been there and done that many times over. We made LOTS OF MISTAKES THAT THE ENTIRE HERP COMMUNITY LEARNED FROM AS TIME PASSED BY. In the time I started there were NO computers [I used stone pallets and chisels] or any way to get info other than talking with my peers [no cell phones however] or thru letters via snail mail. I have the ability as do many others to have herps you may consider a no no to keep and keep well. During the formative years of this Industry I played a big part getting us where we are today as did many others and IWE feel people like you and others should have the same chance we did although now hard info is but a mouse click away. I'm sorry you felt offended BUT thats how the cookie crumbles...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

busterlimes Mar 20, 2010 01:08 AM

Wow, sorry for offending you Tom. I do think that there is a "right and wrong" when it comes to species, and I apologize for that.

I really do know that you have helped build the trade. And no matter what asian children do.. I'm still gonna be me (do prairie kids respect their elders more than coastal kids? food for thought). It's not that I see "no value" in wisdom or age. I still don't want venomous or dangerous animals on the pet trade anymore. (yes, my opinion of them, and i know where i can shove it before anybody says it, this is not the only thing I've been known to care about and be burned.)

I feel like I've burned a bridge with you Tom, due to my opinions(though I don't actually know you) but not even a great breeder like you is going to convince me that i'm "out of my league" or that you are somehow "not my peers". I'm not the one bringing you junk science and legislation, that would be the enemies. I'm not the enemy I'm a herper with an opinion that just maybe... this time... they're right.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 20, 2010 09:10 AM

You have burned no bridge with me as you have done nothing but state your opinion which you have every right to do. I dissagree with you because I don't think your old or experienced enough to make decisions as you have. In fact my bet is your heart is in the right plade but you are seriously flawed in your thought process and you don't see the BIG PICTURE. You have a failure to see the forest as the trees block your view....LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

busterlimes Mar 20, 2010 03:17 PM

I'm using the pet trade as the "big picture" as I've stated I also "do not approve" of big cats (in fact I find this much more disturbing than somehting like a viper or even a python trust me).

Tom, i could sit here and hero worship you. Trust me, I know enough about what you've done and I believe that you might be the best herper i've ever even had contact with. This is not the first time that I have argued with someone I like, it really does not feel good to trash some of your species and I feel like a total loser for it. However, I believe in the pet trade, regardless of who I am, or what I do for a living, suffice to say it affects me and I wanted my opinions heard by the community at hand.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 20, 2010 04:31 PM

As I have said in an earlier post you have the right to post any opinion you want and it doesn't hurt my feelings at all. That is another right like the "pursuit of happiness" one. Yor rights end when they interfere with someone elses. Once again HOW DOES A NEIGHBOR WITH A CAPTIVE GABOON VIPER AFFECT YOU IN ANY WAY? That same neighbor likely has a car and a gun as well. All three, the Viper, car, and gun are dangerous in the wrong hands. Why do you suggest that the venomous should be prohibited from selling to anyone? Is it because it "might" be a crazy as you say? What about the cars and guns? Do we ban those also? I hoping your catching my drift...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

busterlimes Mar 20, 2010 05:25 PM

A gaboon viper? well I'm honestly not that acquainted with the animal. As per what I know about vipers in general, it doesn't affect me, unless I know. And then I'm pissed. Does it matter why? Does it matter that I will want to move my family? NOT TO YOU! Because you should never have to give up a venomous snake. What about your neighbors pursuit of happiness? (which I assume also means the pursuit of not having something you FEAR next door, statistically relevant or not.)

I hope you respect your fellow americans wishes... no matter what is decided.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 20, 2010 06:01 PM

If you look around you every damned thing can be dangerous. I personally don't like dogs but I would put up with yours BECAUSE IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS JUST AS IT'S NONE OF YOUR'S WHAT YOUR NEIGHBOR DOES UNLESS IT AFFECTS YOU. You wouldn't like to be my neighbor and one of us would have to move and it wouldn't be me..I stay out of all my neighbors business and I demand the same and there are NO choices on that...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

busterlimes Mar 20, 2010 06:44 PM

"If you look around you every damned thing can be dangerous. I personally don't like dogs but I would put up with yours BECAUSE IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS JUST AS IT'S NONE OF YOUR'S WHAT YOUR NEIGHBOR DOES UNLESS IT AFFECTS YOU. You wouldn't like to be my neighbor and one of us would have to move and it wouldn't be me..I stay out of all my neighbors business and I demand the same and there are NO choices on that..."

Okeedokie. I think it affects me. You don't. If he was beating his wife, it would affect me. I would say something. Is it my business? No.

biophile Mar 19, 2010 09:30 AM

who, then, gets to decide which animals I am "allowed" to keep? You? My state has strict laws pertaining to many types and I follow those laws (= animals I cannot keep). However, I might have an intrinsic interest in one of the many other species you would deem "not worthy" of keeping. I maintain that you do not need to make decisions for me. The thrill for me is learning and deducing and observing behaviors, including but not limited to captive reproduction of taxa which interest me. Simple. Makes my life better and makes me a better person.

jscrick Mar 19, 2010 04:57 PM

"The thrill for me is learning and deducing and observing behaviors, including but not limited to captive reproduction of taxa which interest me. Simple. Makes my life better and makes me a better person."

That's exactly right.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

busterlimes Mar 20, 2010 01:16 AM

best quote in his post.

the "who decides this crap you are spewing" part is getting rather annoying. "who decides this crap you SELL?"
obviously I'm in favor of a LEGISLATION. so?! why does that mean that I want to dictate your scientific endeavors? I do the same thing! With animals who (apparently) are not of any real worth due to their danger level?

or the fact that you can't get the exact "taxa" that you want? Y shud that animal be available (not, no, you can't. just WHY?!?!?!)keeping herps is fun without venomous or dangerous herps, I PROMISE.

Kind of extreme, I did like the quote though.

emysbreeder Mar 21, 2010 12:39 AM

.......What and miss out on the sound of EDB's in a four part harmany in the morning, as the snakeroom door opens. part 1 "the turn of the door knob",a slow lead in of a click-click then as you enter the room, the three count R&R progresshion of buzz-buzz Buzz BUZZZZZZ woo woo that smell, cant you smell that smell,the smell of Adamanteus musk around you! HELL YEA! Venomous, a percise disaplend of mental awareness VM

StephF Mar 18, 2010 05:26 PM

So many erroneous assumptions, so little time....

I think I'll let a couple of posters say it for me:

"It is apparent to me that we are seeing the results of the modern public education system here.

Seems like these days children are taught (either directly or by example) that results and critical thinking don't really matter anymore."

StephF Mar 18, 2010 05:34 PM

"Individuals with a "defensive attitude" usually misinterpret benign criticisms as personal attacks. They feel the need to justify the opinions strongly, as they have learned that in order to be loved, accepted and listened to, they need to strongly defend what they believe in and question all else. For them, the real issue is not the topic they are arguing about. It is the underlying them of self-worth that simmers inside. They anticipate being criticized and attacked, thus they attack first in order to prevent the pain, humiliation etc. Ask yourself this: do I equate my arguments with my self-worth? What does it really matter who is right or wrong, as long as you are comfortable with your opinions yourself? Don't assume anything of people as assumptions usually result in bad behavior that won't get you what you want."

busterlimes Mar 18, 2010 05:39 PM

"Individuals with a "defensive attitude" usually misinterpret benign criticisms as personal attacks." --- sometimes you have a really good one. I think both sides are guilty of this though. You have the philistine ideals of those who should have pets that others find unnecessary, and you have the debating personalities of you and I.

In the words of a famous sidekick, "Holy interstellar yardsticks, Batman!" from an ancient batman comic book, talking about spanning a long distance.

Jaykis Mar 18, 2010 08:11 PM

Been keeping herps for 52 of my 62 years. Need any advice

busterlimes Mar 20, 2010 01:19 AM

Now that is impressive... If anything comes to mind I'll definitely ask you... Didn't they tar and feather you for keeping herps back then??? Or was that the age of "if it floats it's a herpkeeper"?(lol, seriously joking, couldn't resist! awesome stuff I'd love to hear anything you have to say)

Jaykis Mar 20, 2010 04:25 PM

Back in the 60's and 70.s, there was breeding only by luck. No one had the knowledge, and only zoos were doing anything , and they wouldn't discuss it with the public sector. After awhile, the public sector had more money and was able to do more and better work with rare animals, and the zoos were finally surpassed in their breeding knowledge. The formation of the IHS, the International Herpetological Symposiums, started by Richard Hahn, (they continue today) bridged the gap between the public and zoological institutions.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 20, 2010 04:33 PM

Yup Jay, and you and I were there at the beginning. If your down this way again stop in. You're always welcome..thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

busterlimes Mar 20, 2010 05:26 PM

Well, that's just really great Jay, I find nothing negative in that.

Jaykis Mar 22, 2010 08:28 PM

Tom, I went right past you at the end of the turnpike heading on down to the keys 2 on the 15th with Brittany, but we were pressed for time and couldn't stop. Too much tourist stuff to see, lol. Next time. I'll try to get down there before Daytona.

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