Reptile & Amphibian Forums

From the Kinsgsnake Herp Law Center & Forum

1. No discussion on the REMOVAL of any species from the trade will ever be allowed. Sky is the limit on what is included.
2. If you are not an old "herper" your opinion on "herp laws" is not welcome. Apparently you have to keep the animal to understand whether it belongs in the wild, even if you believe that most animals do. - this is perceived as arrogance here.
3. If you have a bad experience with a snake, don't share it here unless you like making new nicknames for yourself. You will be called a sissy, a fool, and even insane.
4. Nobody has anything to lobby with, there is no "counter" for the Pet's Rights people in regards to the legislation that supposed "AR" groups are proposing.
5. If an animal can be "captive bred" then it should be.
6. Nobody here seems to hold the reptile community at fault for the feral reptile populations of the world, however, we should thank breeders for supplying ample amounts to the pet trade (which of course ended up in the nations wilderness when people did not want them anymore, not seen as a current practice).
7. If you are pro-legislation for pets, you are definitely anti-pet.
8. Venomous animals are completely reasonable to own. If you can "care" for it.
9. This community would do well, (bc of so many like-minded people) but is still trying to do it's thing "the old fashioned way" with democratic process and ideals of justice. Unfortunately enough, some time in some of these peoples lives we went from that good stuff^ to capitalism (tyvm baby boomers). In capitalism corporations rule, not associations and unions. With the hundreds of capitalist AR acronym-bearing groups flying at them... all they have are a few "old fashioned affiliations".
10. This community is an extremist pet organization. I used to be a member of USARK but i'm retracting myself due to my own beliefs on animals, animal welfare, and animal rights.

A "kid" with "adhd" warrants more talk on these forums than actual issues.

Here is something from my neck of the woods (same county/area)

http://www.ohmidog.com/2009/07/01/kansas-mayor-to-be-tried-in-dog-shooting/

You can bet my "ADHD" flared up that day, and I became an AR activist for a minute. He's still the mayor of course, totally normal to be shooting peoples dogs. Imagine what a common gnat like this dude would do to my herps. But of course this snake ban is completely illogical bc people shouldn't be offended by your animals in any way.

10. This community is an extremist pet organization. I used to be a member of USARK but i'm retracting myself due to my own beliefs on animals, animal welfare, and animal rights.

Honestly, I think this is the right decision for you at this stage in you're life. If you're smart, you'll regret it later, but I think it will be a great learning experience, and you'll end up the better for it.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I cannot belong to an organization which believes it is OK to make absolutely anything a captive. That appears to be the ideology of KSnake members at least.

Also I've noticed that if you are a "gold-member" you get to be on the "policy advisor panel"? Based on what, the fact that I gave you a thousand dollars? Hell I might have an extra grand for that!

I am a Gold Member several times over and all I get to do is interact with people on this forum. This forum has no formal connection with USARK that I know of.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You admit that you are a member of both, and that you "interact" with people on this forum (on their behalf?).

Hell, maybe the reptile trade does have capitalism on it's side, seems like an umbrella corp (which would be a good idea IMO). i also don't really blame AR groups for infiltrating HSUS, they are just capitalizing on you, before you can do the same to them, they may have beat you to it. --------- Good Ol' U.S. of A.

(AR evils do not need to be proven to me, I still blame them for what they do to the fish/pet trade, but I do not believe that EVERY herp should be a captive animal and therefore there is apparently no use for me here.I found out yesterday that I am an animal rights activist bc of this. I'm at least I'm on that same societal rung here, as the damned AR people. This is what makes me call you "extreme" "eccentric" and "fundamentalist".) This is just for clarity to those who have not studied my posts like you "old dudes" have. Thanks to your posts, I regret "keeping" every herp that I have ever had. I thought that there was careful consideration giving to WHICH animals can be captives. BUT I WAS WAY OFF, it's about the almighty buck.

You seem to believe what you can manage, and what you believe other folks can or could safely manage, should be pets, and those creatures you have deemed unacceptable for whatever reason, should either not be, or be permitted somehow.

As I asked, show me a single reptile permit system worth the paper its written on that has worked...Florida's old system was the one O would always use as my "suggestion" - look what good that did Florida...

I don't have dogs, and frankly, I don't like dogs. I was seriously attacked by a Saint Bernard as a kid. I was also bitten badly by a Dalmatian. I don't use those examples, and my bad experiences with those animals to force my beliefs of what makes a good captive for me on others who would want to own those animals.

"You seem to believe what you can manage, and what you believe other folks can or could safely manage, should be pets, and those creatures you have deemed unacceptable for whatever reason, should either not be, or be permitted somehow.

As I asked, show me a single reptile permit system worth the paper its written on that has worked...Florida's old system was the one O would always use as my "suggestion" - look what good that did Florida...

I don't have dogs, and frankly, I don't like dogs. I was seriously attacked by a Saint Bernard as a kid. I was also bitten badly by a Dalmatian. I don't use those examples, and my bad experiences with those animals to force my beliefs of what makes a good captive for me on others who would want to own those animals."

Ok, I'm at grand lake of the cherokees here in OK tonight but I did want to respond to this.

Yes, I realized today when I was bathing my dog that this IS true. However, that does not mean that just because you can handle it you should keep it. It at least doesn't mean I am going to think that, especially in the case of venomous animals (being sold to completely random people).

Well, here in Kansas we have some pretty strict exotics laws where certain things are just outright banned such as quaker parrots (kansans actually believe these will ruin their crops. I've never seen a quaker eat a soybean, i have seen it eat corn or wheat) not strict when compared to NY, but compared to say... Montana or something.
however nobody messes with me in this cowboy town (the one I live in, even the state representative for my area knows I keep reptiles) when I say, "I have a state issued dangerous animals permit" which basically does nothing, but they don't know that. I'm not saying copy any system really at all

I'm not going to say anything about dalmations... or about removing dog breeds from trade (lol) but you nailed one with me right there. I knew a dalmation who was quite wrong in the brain once. I was attacked by a big snake on more than one occasion. He was a terror. I shared one of those times here and I honestly regret that. we live and learn.

For most of us it's NEVER been about the "almighty buck" as you put it. First and foremost it's a true love of reptiles that keeps me going. Eons ago I was an executive with Sears Roebuck and Company and made $21,000 one year in the early 70's. I left a career in management to do what I loved best and that is work with herps. Many things I keep and breed have little monetary value. I keep them because I like them. My guess is that many of us here do that. If you got into it to just make money perhaps that is why you feel the way you do. I've met many folks like that [especially those who borrowed money to be Ball Python barons]. If you have a true love for herps you'll never be able to stop no matter how hard you try and yur opinions will change with age.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom's absolutely correct-if you truly have a passion for reptiles, you really have no choice in living this life. I've seen people get into reptile breeding primarily for the money, but they soon learn that there are FAR better ways to make a buck! Certainly it's the last thing you'd want to try if you wanted to make a ton of cash!

The way to make a small fortune in reptiles? Start with a LARGE fortune.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Yes, that is another general misconception by the public. An accusation the the AR crowd loves to throw around, that we're all getting rich off our pound of reptile flesh. Us, and our wanton mercenary destruction of the environment. Couldn't be further from the truth. The record clearly shows we (private sector) have done far more to conserve wildlife, and at no cost to the tax payer. The inhumanity of it all, just one more fallacious justification for the AR agenda. The AR folks just love to throw those heart-wrenching emotionally saturated red herrings to the media. And the media just gobbles 'em up.

Getting poorer is more like it. It can be a rather expensive hobby.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I remember attending the Monitor and Iguana symposium in San Diego about 12 years ago, Day one was papers put on by various zoo’s and public institutions about their breeding results all over the world. Day two opened with Frank Retes for the private breeders. Franks first sentence was “My name is Frank Retes and in the last year I’ve produced more monitors than all the zoo’s and public institutions together have ever produced.” We all know how much Frank likes to make friends. The final blow to the zoos was Frank telling them that he had only started 4 years before.

Yeah well, you know the zoos could do a better job if they had a little more money. lol
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I do it for the money, and I get to work what ever 90 hours a week I want. VM

^I do it for the money, and I get to work what ever 90 hours a week I want.^

I completely understand this. You might not think I would know a lot of people in the pet breeding business, but I think you'd be surprised.

I know a saltwater fish breeder (cool to have here in Kansas trust me lol) who breeds two species and says it's a "part-time job". he has a cool setup, reliant on a natural well to start the process of creating quality salt-water. (because we might as well dig a hole, our tap-water tax money must be up some asses in topeka! )

If two species of totally generic fish to keep (by modern standards)takes that much time... I imagine you guys never sleep.

HA HA Brad that's the story of my life BUT I have No regrets living it for I have truely lived my dream....I'M OCD ABOUT HERPS WHICH IS WHY I HAVE 40-50 DOMINICAN BOAS AND WANT TO KEEP THEM ALL!!!!
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I bred my first snakes in 1972 (at age 12) and never looked back-though it'll probably turn out I'll have to choose a retirement somewhere in Central America LOL....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Actually I'm retired but have time now to breed stuff I didn't have time for before such as N. American Crotalids for instance..I just hatched 10 Beaded Lizards out!!! Many folks have but it's my first and very exciting to me...

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Wow you could have told me that you had figured out a way to hatch frogspawn out of a lizard egg and I would have believed you. Lol. Sorry, cool pic, cool lizards.

I'm not through reading you all's posts. In another of your posts and in several others posts I have gotten the idea that people want a "right" to "own anything". But this Ideology bothers me bud.

A quote from a post about your awesome Crocodillian endeavors: "your assumption that I don't have the ability to keep them safely and successfully? "

Tom... dude, that was NEVER my assumption. My assumption is that NOBODY in the general public has the ABILITY without SEVERE EDUCATIONAL RESEARCH. Sorry for my assumptions, they make an ass out of me.

As you said in other posts, I'm young and not experienced with anything "dangerous". Ok. That's fine partner. But how experienced did that make your customers? Do you have an age limit on purchases (that is higher than my age 25) or can we kill the age thing in this forum now? :O

You can't say I don't have a want to keep an American Alligator (for instance), sounds fun, sounds like an adrenaline rush. Also sounds like an injurious animal which should not be distributed willy-nilly. Of course, what happens to the biome when you release one of those into florida?? Umm... I'm NO EXPERT, but I'm guessing close to nothing.

Actually I can talk to a customer and in less than 5 minutes can accurately guage his experience level with venomous snakes. I just raise the bar with my discussions and then I decide whether to sell or not depending on the level the customer is at and the species wanted. For instance I might sell a Copperhead to someone I wouldn't sell a Monacled Cobra to. It's really very easy to quantify the customer by me as I can talk the talk and walk the walk AND I KNOW IMMEDIATELY who slse can or can't. It's really more about personal freedoms than having venomous snakes anyway. This is really the subject and yes I think dangerous herps should be regulated but NOT banned....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Hey, Tom Dude. I prefer to call you "Mr. Tom" as that is an old Southern expression of respect for one's superior/authority.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

How about just plain Tom as I'm just a guy who loves herps...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Ok, I liked both of these. IN THE WEST "dude" has a different meaning to our culture, bc it's considered a compliment to be a cowboy . MISTER is usually not something I say.

IN THE WEST "dude" has a different meaning to our culture, bc it's considered a compliment to be a cowboy

I grew up less than 10 miles from the King ranch. The san Fernando creek that runs right through the king ranch was my playground. If you had called someone "dude" they would have thought you were from out west alright. They would have thought you were a freak from California. Some of the REAL cowboys might have had a mind to give you an attitude adjustment.

If u are referring to the king ranch in Kingsville texas (not really sure if you are) that's where my family is from.

Somehow I doubt that. I grew up in alfred just north of the ranch I graduated from high school in alfred (home of the alfred mavericks). If you 'd have referred to anyone as anything other than sir or ma'am you'd have gotten your butt whooped. But if you were part of the Gonzales family that owned the king ranch you would know that.

I'm not part of the "gonzalez" family bud, in fact my family hasn't lived there for years. My papa was a construction worker if you must know and his work took him between Kingsville and Corpus a lot. My mom was born in Kingsville. Yes I call people "sir" and "ma'am" all the time, it's part of my culture. doesn't mean I'm going to be that way to people I meet on the interwebs.

I do believe you.
" For instance I might sell a Copperhead to someone I wouldn't sell a Monacled Cobra to. " That's good bc my only experience with monacled cobra (an albino specimen) was hell of aggressive. I didn't keep it, but the guy who sold us our big snakes had a hot room.

Actually no herps that have been in captivity should ever be released into the wild because of the threat of introducing harmful pathogens into wild populations. Look at what happened to the Gopherus polyphemus and Gopherus agassizii when the wild populations were infected with a potentially deadly UR bacteria resulting from releases of captive infected tortoises. NO ONE SHOULD EVER RELEASE THEIR NATIVE CAPTIVE HERPS FOR THIS REASON.THANKS
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I'm sure this is true. However, I've known people to go to the Ozarks, find a hatchling turtle, raise it for one year and release it. I ASSUME that this is done elsewhere with other animals. Not very responsible from certain points of view I admit.

I saw someone else's post regarding my membership. Well, one thing that I do that my family hates is I give to organizations that have a similar interest to my own. After all, it's pretty easy to set your debit card up with paypal.

Do I belong to HSUS? I don't believe so, but my spouse might. (since we are parents to a local adoption, I'm not thinking that makes us members? I also take cats TO them, and I give a hefty amount in additiong to the required fees, to ensure that humanity is upheld. I don't trust them at all though.)

Do I belong to PETA/it's affiliates/something similar? No, I have long seen them (and one of PETA's funded organizations) as terrorists. I have heard media horror stories (remember, I come from Ag-land USA something some of you found pretty darn funny) about a certain "animal liberation" group. Let's just say I stand with the chicken farmers.

"Do I belong to HSUS? I don't believe so, but my spouse might. (since we are parents to a local adoption, I'm not thinking that makes us members? I also take cats TO them, and I give a hefty amount in additiong to the required fees, to ensure that humanity is upheld. I don't trust them at all though.)"

Hmm, the HSUS is not directly affiliated with local shelters. Supporting you local animal shelter is VERY GOOD, they do the hard work, and need all the funding they can get. The HSUS does little more then distribute pamphlets, pass around Animal rights propaganda, and take donations that would be better off anywhere they could actually go to helping animals.

http://www.cornutopia.com/Corn Utopia on the Web/- LURKING ENEMY Cornutopia corn snakes cornsnakes.htm

http://activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/o/136-humane-society-of-the-united-states

I hate PETA and the HSUS ,but I am possibly getting a job as a facilities Tech for my local Humane Society. I am no golden member here by far but feel after serving my country in the armed forces I should be able to keep animals as long as I am not endangering anyone else and am taking care of them. To each his own. I think everyone can have their opinion and rightfully so.

Thank you so much for protecting all of our rights and freedoms!

I hope we will be able to protect your right to enjoy whatever animals you like.

Avenspirit - Lol I'd call it a "regional" shelter, but thanks for that input I do a lot with them due to my feral cat problem.

Mcdowelli - thank you for your service to our country.

I hear ya on the feral cat thing. I got a Siamese we found living under our kitchen about a year ago. Dingbat house mate thought he was causing her to get staff infections and tried to catch him to take to the pound. Now I'm the only one he trusts. I guess he put the word out I'm a softy and now four feral brothers line up at my door for breakfast like beggar children of Calcuta( no offense to anyone from there). Once I gain their trust I can give 'em the ol' snip snip

LOL the feral cats and dogs around here hate me more than BOB BARKER! I don't feel bad about the dogs even though I'm a dog person, we have a serious problem.

AND NO ANIMAL CONTROL! (literally, my area is too rural)

I'm sorry, but clearly...you've learned nothing...you remain falithful to the same (flawed) pre-determined conclusions you started with. What's funny is that with a header like "What I have learned" implies you are open to learning, but clearly you are not. You condemn the "old guard" for standing fast in their convictions that are based on years of experience, hard learned life lessons, and history. Yet, you are even more closed minded than they are and you have nothing to base your convictions on, other than "feelings".

The thing is, this has absolutely nothing to do with reptiles, large or small. It has to do freedoms and rights, concepts you apparently either do not hold dear or do not completley understand. To take away someones rights, IMHO there must be some type of clear and overwhelming threat to others, not a precieved or concocted danger that is far from clear. In this case, there is no evidence or even a substantial probability of public endangerment to support a case for banning large constrictors. Outside of extreme south Florida, there is not even an environmental threat.

The fact that you do not think they make appropriate pets is completely irrelevant. The only relevance is for your personal choice, don't keep them. But (in the absence of clear and significant threats to others) to belive it is appropriate to tell anyone else what they can and can not keep/do based on your feelings is what leads to things like dictatorships and theocracies. Do you want someone in power (elected or otherwise) telling you what to believe, to worship or not to worship, who to worship or who not to worship, based on their feelings??? There is really no difference. The concept is the same. It is simply imposing one's will over another's without the burdens associated with trying to maintain freedoms and rights.

Mark

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uncommonboa.com

BINGO, HOW CORRECT YOU ARE AND AN ELOQUENT POST AT THAT...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

An old saying, but it is very true. I think it is attributed to Ben Franklin.

"Those who would give up individual liberties to obtain temporary shelter deserve neither liberty nor shelter."

I have said, and still know, that this is a loving pet community responding to a huge ban.

I sympathize, but it's hard to empathize when some of the legislation is banning "venomous", I must be a big hater for hots but I've known people to keep them bc I've been a pretty active dude in the pet trade since a youngster. I'm talking about reeeeeeally weird people, who SECRETLY have a basement full of craziness (in my mind).

In the other arena: It's also hard to empathize when I go to the lake and the only herps out (it's early but still) are INVASIVE red-eared sliders (which must be the most prolific turtle ever if experience is indicative of the global problem).
They are from the PET trade. I'm positive that this pre-dates the current way things are done, but it makes me have thoughts that this could be happening with other animals. I really do TRY not to get my 'thoughts' from any media source.

I also retain the idea that a WEE bit of reformation (in the entire pet trade) as to species will not destroy everything, but times are tough now as it is, I hear ya. I think that a positive note on my idea of "reformation" is to get rid of this 4" turtle crap (see I'm not all bad, that would help breeders... right?)

I didn't mean to attack breeders. I have a lot of respect and think you should go steal 1.2 condors from zoos so that they can actually breed.(BIG JK LOL) In fact some day I think there will be a 100 hectare saltwater aquarium with a full biome supporting plankton and krill in order to bring whales back from extinction. (can't blame me for liking old star trek movies).

I just don't want venomous animals, tigers, warthogs, (omg could you imagine? oh wait I'm asking the WRONG people that question lol) a CHIMPANZEE (FFS?) or any other animal that I DEEM TO BE DANGEROUS around MY KID, or family, or dog, or herps. The only issue I have with supporting ya'll is that my (dumb) neighbor could buy a viper, or even an endangered species.

The only problem I have with that is that your "dumb neighbor" might be an expert who just might be doing positive things that you're not aware of. I've always had neighbors and NOT once has any of my herps escaped and harmed anyone or anything. I once had a neighbor object to my having False Gavials in a pond in my front yard. She went as far as getting a petition to try to get other neighbors to sign. To make a long story short NO ONE signed it but her. I had my attorney send her a letter and it was finished. I was just a "dumb neighbor" to her and my Tomistoma were there for 20 years with no problems of any kind...thanks..Anyway your "dumb neighbor" may not like things you do but this is supposed to be a free country and where all shall be allowed the pursuit of happiness. If your neighbor wishes to keep venomous snakes etc. he should be allowed to unless your liberties and pursuit of happiness are disallowed in some way. A persons personal freedoms stop only when they affect others personal freedoms in some way. How does a person next door keeping venomous stop you from pursuit of happiness? If he ever has an escape etc there should be severe penalties that punish him. Cars and guns are lethal weapons in the wrong hands but it's likely your neighbor has both and doesn't affest you at all...Think about these things...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Ok, apparently this really is a "rights" thing. I was seriously not aware of this right. Like I've stated it's growing on me as a way of thinking and i appreciate the input of the herp community. For the record I've never "sent" or "posted" anything to any government official. I've never been overt about this and I'm sorry for stinking up your forum with my flawed ideas of reform. The reason for this is bc I would rather reform things the "right" way. But there really is no want for reform, and I apologize for my interest in the pet trade as a whole.

What your not aware of is that there HAS BEEN reform and lots of it over the last 20 years. The Herp Industry was the "WILD WEST" in it's early days with no permits needed anywhere for anything. All species sold were imported legally or smuggled. NOTHING WAS CAPTIVE BRED. We have evolved and conformed to what it is today but you don't know that because you weren't born yet and couldn't possibly know. Now 80-90% of all herps sold are captive produced. You're still missing the whole concept of a little thing in the Declaraton of Independence called "the pursuit of happiness" and our right to have it. Once again how is your pursuit of happiness and freedom affected by your neighbor having a venomous snake which in most states are strictly regulated. This same nieghbor likely has guns and cars also. Does any of this affect you personally? NONE OF IT AFFECTS YOU UNLESS THE NEIGHBOR BREAKS THE LAW AND THEN THE LAWBREAKER IS PUNISHED. The point is none of us have the right to tell others how they should live. People that think like that are zealots such as Osama Bin Ladin. He would kill any infidel he could and there are some right wing Christian zealots who might feel the same way. We had a Tea Party in Boston a LONG TIME AGO to insure this doesn't happen here....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"What your not aware of is that there HAS BEEN reform and lots of it over the last 20 years."

How do you know that I'm not aware of this? How do you know that my family isn't a part of the pet trade? Regardless of my age?

I'm very grateful for captive breeding. I'm grateful for reform. I'm glad birds/herps/fish/exotics aren't imported in staggering numbers anymore. Hell I'm grateful for the work you have personally done with Cyclura lewisi! among (i'm sure!) hundreds of other species, dangerous or not. Do I believe that these legislations will destroy you... idk about that. Do I think that this is a "pursuit of happiness"? Sure, I'll go ahead and believe that. Thanks to the input of people who are quite reasonable, quite knowledgeable, and driven to protect their animals. Very cool!

Do I think that most hots are dealt in a shady manner? No. I think there is a lot of unspoken laws here in the herp community. But that one "person" who "might" sell one in the parking lot behind a trade show... well, of course that doesn't happen . Is there not a lawyer among us to propose these things? There must be.

I can only assume your not aware of it based on your statements suggesting reform which has and is still happening. YOUR OWN STATEMENTS BASED ON YOUR AGE LED ME TO THOSE CONCLUSIONS. If in fact it's NOT the case don't make statements like you did about "reform" and I won't assume anything. You still however never addressed my questions to you about your neighbor statements and my responses to them...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"I can only assume your not aware of it based on your statements suggesting reform which has and is still happening. YOUR OWN STATEMENTS BASED ON YOUR AGE LED ME TO THOSE CONCLUSIONS. If in fact it's NOT the case don't make statements like you did about "reform" and I won't assume anything. You still however never addressed my questions to you about your neighbor statements and my responses to them...thanks"

I did not state my age in "my own statements" but rather a member called me out with a response titled "HOW OLD ARE YOU??" --- which was very annoying, so I stated it. Along with where I live/come from and other little tidbits to "prove I'm a person"

My neighbor keeps 10-12 laying-hens and a few roosters in the same pen. He has another coop which has much more including 5-10 roosters (they are concentrated in this second pen) they fight all darn day, but he doesn't care. Every week (roughly) he goes out there, grabs one, kills it, plucks it, cleans it and cooks it. By this time the scars that the roosters have are completely moot, right? The fact that they escape all day and run around my yard doesn't bother me, the fact that he eats them does not bother me (i'd kill, pluck and clean them myself if it was my chicken). Is he a professional chicken farmer? obviously not, he's feeding his family/pets on eggs and fresh meat. Are his pens too small to house those chickens, yes. Should he be called out on it? probably, that's an awful lot of damned noise for me to deal with.

The point? he has rabbits too, and large snakes (I bet if he had an Afrock it would die of cardio-failure), and l-rd knows what ELSE! His kids are in 4h and stuff like that so they have a menagerie of herps and especially non herps/livestock.

So it isn't when he cleans the chickens that bothers me. It's when they go right inside. I mean I'm a noob and whatnot but are feathers really nutritionally beneficial? But who in the world is ever going to pluck a LIVE chicken! How.... morbid!

Actually I'm not sure I understand your post...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

You asked about my neighbors animals^ and if he should have a venomous animal. My answer is NO.

How do you determine this based on the fact he has chickens? I'm interested to know this. Also you still completely missed the point regardless....The only rights I can see you have concerning your neighbor is to ask him not to let his chickens come on your property. Other than that you HAVE NO RIGHT TO INTERFERE AT ALL...I'm sure you do things he doesn't like either....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I know I can't interfere with his chickens Tom or his herps for that matter. (as I stated, it's popular here too, surprisingly) He also can not mess with my dog, herps, etc.

We have no animal control, and only a "town" cop from 12 midnight to 6 AM, all other hours are monitored by county sheriff and hway patrol, so who would I call in the first place?

Yes they cross on to my property, no I don't care. I'm not liable if my dog kills one, or at least I shouldn't be if it's on my property. If he was doing "snake livestock" and a snake came over the line (no matter WHAT it did, one spur within my property, I have a BABY, I have a dog, I will think - this is not comfort! my yard is for my family to have comfort in!), let's just say I hope he has some HELLA money to fight my lawyer with. He MIGHT win, but I would fight him all the same. My comfort level is just as important as your hobby, in other words.

What if your dog attacks one of your neighbors kids? Should your dogs be banned because they MIGHT attack his livestock or kids? Your entire post was rife with hypocrysy. Your post sound like only YOUR happiness is important. Have any of his snakes ever escaped and went to your property? Have your dogs ever went on his property? Come on that was pretty lame...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

No, my dog has never gone on his property (if you had read, she IS banned here, I was asked to take her in. Apparently I have some kind of animal "skill" that may not be herp-related) or anyone's property for that matter. I have seen a lot of dog hate here, but she serves a purpose for me, as do my guns. My dog is kept in the same careful manner your herps are. If she ever did attack a kid, I would have her euthanized. I believe you would do the same. When she leaves the yard, she is on a leash. Period.

Once again though have ANY of your neighbors snakes got in your yard? If NOT why are you concerned about someting that hasn't and will likely never happen. Contrary to what Chicken little say's the sky is not falling...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"Once again though have ANY of your neighbors snakes got in your yard? If NOT why are you concerned about someting that hasn't and will likely never happen. Contrary to what Chicken little say's the sky is not falling...LOL"

I actually Laughed Out Loud, touche.

How would I know? In the summer this yard ie s covered in garters and water moccasins (i know... lame area for snakes lol, i try not to hit them with my lawnmower but dang they are really everywhere) and once I saw a very tiny (tiny sounding too) rattlesnake. How did that get there? I ain't never saw no dadgum rattlers till then! I'm sure it was NOT released, but they really are a rare sight here and if I see one THAT SMALL then I have to wonder where it's coming from.

Dogs escape from fenced yards every day but I as your neighbor wouldn't worry about it at all as it's your business. Certainly I have no fear of dogs I just don't like to keep them as they require to much time I don't have. I'm a cat person but do not hate dogs just don't want one. Two years ago I had a boerbull but gave it to my daughter...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yes they do, as I've stated we have actually feral packs in the wild breeding and forming social systems. I have had THEM in my yard, but now I have a big dog, and they stay away. I have two cats (it is a farm house after all) and understand why someone would be a cat person. what I don't understand is how they take more time than a herp specimen/collection? I've definitely spent more time on my lizard hobby than on my dog, my cats, or even my fishtank (which is the big money-sink for sure). Dog just does what I tell her to do "go lay down". which is what I'm getting on here "Buster, we have a damned right just like you have a right to dogs and firearms, go lay down."

Your dog is much more likely to kill your baby than a large snake. Most professional pet organizations advise against getting dogs if you have small children. A humane society I worked for would not adopt out dogs to families with children they deemed too young to be near dogs.

I'm sure a large python would rather eat a baby than it's staple. My dog is not more likely, it's just more likely for people to have a dog, or interact with a dog in any way.

It is obvious to me that you not only know nothing about large reptiles but you don't know much about dogs either. By your own description of the temperament of your dog you are asking for trouble if you have any small children, given it's size. You are right if the world was made up of people like you there shouldn't be anyone who should own large animals. From the sounds of it you are one of those stereotypes that people who keep bull breeds and other large breeds of dogs absolutely hate.
From your own description your dog sounds like it is poorly trained, mix that with an aggressive temperament and a small child that often does things that trigger predatory instincts in dogs like running and screaming (yes dogs even domestic ones have predatory instincts just like reptiles only more dangerous.) and you have a recipe for disaster.

"It is obvious to me that you not only know nothing about large reptiles but you don't know much about dogs either. By your own description of the temperament of your dog you are asking for trouble if you have any small children, given it's size. You are right if the world was made up of people like you there shouldn't be anyone who should own large animals. From the sounds of it you are one of those stereotypes that people who keep bull breeds and other large breeds of dogs absolutely hate.
From your own description your dog sounds like it is poorly trained, mix that with an aggressive temperament and a small child that often does things that trigger predatory instincts in dogs like running and screaming (yes dogs even domestic ones have predatory instincts just like reptiles only more dangerous.) and you have a recipe for disaster."

Great, more random insults. She's 45 lbs (not bad for a boxer/pit [bleep]) not a huge dog. She isn't poorly trained. I've only had her since she has been an adult, she was quite emaciated and she is my good friend. She came from SEKHS and they KNEW that she was a BANNED dog when she came in.

MY DAUGHTER ON THE OTHER HAND is NEVER unsupervised around the DOG. I would have to be some kind of fool (go ahead, looks like youre having fun) to put that much trust in a dog when my CHILD is at stake. This isn't the herp law forum, it's the insult people whom you don't like forum.

Typically here on the herpforum there are debates about different aspects of pending legislation. There is often disagreement about certain aspects of this legislation among people with differing viewpoints generally speaking however most people on this forum all keep reptiles and generally agree that prohibition type legislation against one group of reptiles is bad for all because it doesn't stop there. Also prohibition never works and when you drive things underground that's when things get dangerous. Stores that sell cigarrettes, Alcohol and prescription drugs don't run around gunning each other down in turf wars illegal drug dealers do that. Casinos don't send strong men to beat you up when you don't pay your gambling debts illegal bookies do that. This type of behavior goes on because they have no legal recourse to protect their interests they need to take it into their own hands. I certainly doubt such things will happen involving people keeping illegal pets but the bottom line is something negative will come from herpers being driven underground it is better to keep thing above board.
You however come on here and one of the first things you do in a community where most people are looking out for each others interests is to slam people who keep large snakes and slam reptile keepers in fl. and tell everyone how you are going to go back to your "lizards".
You obviously didn't like my response but I don't care I'm not running a popularity contest. You then proceed to tell everybody on here what YOU think they should and shouldn't keep and base it in part on your own bad experiences and in part on some ridiculous fear of being attacked by some escaped animal. For some ridiculous reason you seem to think everyone is going to welcome you with open arms.Are you that guy who goes to the pet rodent forums and talks about using rats and mice for feeders? Do you go to vegan forums for advice on how to cook steaks? I mean c'mon what in God's name do you expect?
As for my comments on your dog which I based on your comments regarding it's temperament I stand by what I said. YOU are the one screaming about how you are worried about YOUR families safety from OTHER peoples animals and you refuse to take the beam out of your own eye before taking the speck out of your brother's eye . Not to mention you keep hinting along that bull breeds are banned in your area (something myself and others on this board disagree with.) yet you keep one anyway. What is it lonely for you being a criminal? You want us to join so you can start a club or something? That is so hypocritical on so many levels.
. As far as you're own personal bad experience with a large retic, they aren't for everybody kudos to you for realizing that for yourself shame on you for feeling that everyone else should be banned from owning such animals because you found them unsuitable for yourself. I do very well with some types of animals and not so well with others. I work with the ones I do well with and encourage those who work well with other types that I myself do not do so well with it's great for the hobby and excellent for the survival of many species. Personally I would not keep large cats but I am thankful for those who do if it were not for private keepers these animals would be gone for good (I give them 50 to 60 yrs in the wild).
Last but not least you take what as I stated before as a very disrespectful towards Tom Crutchfield and then tried to pass it of as cowboy slang. I called you on it and I can tell you that among alot of others on this board especially some of the more mature members that disrespect is obvious and it shows your immaturity. Which is something else you seem to be crying about in your posts about the age thing. You are going to be considered to not know alot to others who are older than you based on your being 25. That's life deal with it we were all 25 most of us who are older remember back to when we were 25 and realize that in spite of what we thought we knew we were most likely not as bright as we thought we were. How you conduct yourself with your elders will go a long way towards making you not look as immature as you actually are and gain you a lot more respect which you seem to think you deserve but certainly have not earned.

N/P

May your days be long and filled with adventure.

You know chickens attract foxes coyotes and raccoons all of which carry rabies. what if a rabid animal bites you? How would you know if the rabid animal was wild or if it belonged to your chicken keeping neighbor? Oh what to do.

Ya, I have something for that cal, it's called a dog. My dog cannot save me (and live) from a venomous snake. An animal with rabies, that's fixable.

Dogs do live from venomous snake bites. Personal experience.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Poor dog.

I don't run around worrying about absurd animal attack scenarios you. A rabid mammal attack is far more likely to happen than your ridiculous reptile attack.
For the record btw when I was a kid I spent a year and a half in a town called Pearsall in Tx. which was on the eastern edge of the beginnings of west Texas so there was a higher than normal percentage of rattlesnakes in the area. I had a dog that got bitten most likely by a western diamondback and survived just fine.

Well that's interesting man. I'm glad you worked to save it. I'm sure a rabid mammal attack is more likely. Keep fighting me, we almost have the longest thread in law center history.

Liked your post. I understand your point of view, from a distant viewpoint.

["The fact that you do not think they make appropriate pets is completely irrelevant. The only relevance is for your personal choice, don't keep them. But (in the absence of clear and significant threats to others) to belive it is appropriate to tell anyone else what they can and can not keep/do based on your feelings is what leads to things like dictatorships and theocracies. Do you want someone in power (elected or otherwise) telling you what to believe, to worship or not to worship, who to worship or who not to worship, based on their feelings??? There is really no difference. The concept is the same. It is simply imposing one's will over another's without the burdens associated with trying to maintain freedoms and rights."]

Why are my thoughts on the matter irrelevant? Nobody sees their opinions as irrelevant.

I do not see this as being a theocratic society, I see it as being more safe for animals, keepers and the general pet trade. Perhaps not the reptile trade. I've never said, "I approve of anything that the federal government or any state government does with laws" in any matter.

No I wouldn't want anyone telling my what to do. As someone else stated this was highly eloquent (I've gotten a lot of things that seemed like silly growls). Especially the first part, which I saw no problem in whatsoever. Your opinion is not unwelcome to me.

Still having a bit of trouble with the whole "you have a right" to own any animal thing, but I guess it's growing on me as a way of thinking for others.

"... I'm talking about reeeeeeally weird people, who SECRETLY have a basement full of craziness (in my mind)..."

Unfortunately, banning something often only stops law abiding people from doing it - unless they are so passionate that they are willing to become criminals to continue their passion. Making criminals out of previously law abiding citizens who never harmed anyone with their hobby / business does not benefit society, in my opinion. It is true that MOST people are not capable of properly caring for venomous or giant snakes, or big cats, etc. And that is why MOST people shouldn't have them. But MOST is not ALL!

The secretive, "weird" people you talk about won't stop just because it is banned. All of the bans on drugs haven't stopped drugs or drug users, and they won't stop illegal animal keeping, either. What bans WILL do is to drive the animal keepers underground, where they won't be subject to inspection and regulation.

OTOH, SENSIBLE regulations will allow normally law abiding citizens to remain law abiding, and to be inspected and stay above ground. Bans that drive passionate keepers underground just make them criminals, instead of stop them.

The "crazies" will continue to do crazy things, regardless of laws, and regardless of whether their craziness involves drugs, animals, guns, car racing on back streets, or any other potentially dangerous pursuit. Every hobby, business, and industry will attract some of that type of person, ESPECIALLY if that hobby or business has any aspect of it that is in some way dangerous or macho. That is just human nature.

Wonderful points and a great argument for regulation, where such regulation is absolutely necessary, instead of bans!

I agree with everything you said Kathy, prohibition is not something that will help here.

"OTOH, SENSIBLE regulations will allow normally law abiding citizens to remain law abiding, and to be inspected and stay above ground. Bans that drive passionate keepers underground just make them criminals, instead of stop them."

YES so where are the herp attorneys? Let's propose something?

Become familiar with PIJAC, USARK, NAIA, SAOVA, etc. There are many proposals already in the works, which you apparently either do not know about or choose to ignore.

What do you have in mind to propose. Second do you not know that USARK has already testified before Congress and Shawn Heflick as USARK'S representative will be on Capitol Hill again very soon giving more testimoney. Please let me and others know exactly what you have in mind. USARK has helped promulgate regulations in N. Carolina and in GA and both states used them instead of an outright ban. At present Jim Peters, Bill Brandt, and Eugene Bessette work tirelessly with the FWC in making better regulatory laws that all can live with. Bill and Eugene have been doing this for well over a decade at their own expense and all Fl. Herpers owe them a debt of gratitude. Many of these things you propose are and have been done. This is why we "assume" you don't know because you're presenting it as a new idea which it's not. If it's something radically different we would be interested in knowing about it and will aid any way we can. By the way USARK even has paid lobbiest in DC just as other special interest groups have. I would suggest joining USARK and PIJAC. I'm a gold member and proud of it. Many others here have donated thousands of dollars and man hours to try to solve these problems and to head off others...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

^^"What do you have in mind to propose. Second do you not know that USARK has already testified before Congress and Shawn Heflick as USARK'S representative will be on Capitol Hill again very soon giving more testimoney. Please let me and others know exactly what you have in mind. USARK has helped promulgate regulations in N. Carolina and in GA and both states used them instead of an outright ban. At present Jim Peters, Bill Brandt, and Eugene Bessette work tirelessly with the FWC in making better regulatory laws that all can live with. Bill and Eugene have been doing this for well over a decade at their own expense and all Fl. Herpers owe them a debt of gratitude. Many of these things you propose are and have been done. This is why we "assume" you don't know because you're presenting it as a new idea which it's not. If it's something radically different we would be interested in knowing about it and will aid any way we can. By the way USARK even has paid lobbiest in DC just as other special interest groups have. I would suggest joining USARK and PIJAC."^^

I've already learned that nobody cares about what I propose, because it involves working with the enemy to compile a list of animals that SHOULD be illegal. I've gotten a lot of feedback but NOBODY has said, "oh... well... actually it's completely reasonable to make that a banned animal" I will not join "pet groups" who believe EVERYTHING should be allowed, that's fundamentalist and silly. (in my generally unappreciated opinion)

The only way to beat this to give the "nod" to a few species being unmanageable. but that's not how any of you think, I fear for your survival since thats the case. bureaucrats don't care if you "make a stand" in this, you need to "compromise". Another thing which I believe I've opinionated here.

I'm glad a handful of people are lobbying. No I'm not privy to the delicate affairs in question, if I was why the hell would I ask on a forum designed for such an exchange?

What you are talking about is a "WHITE LIST" and WE ARE DEAD SET AGAINST THAT AND WILL SUE IF NECCESSARY. It is absurd to suggest that someone not be allowed to keep anything but approved herps. I could say that it is impossible for you to maintain Cyclura under optimal conditions because of where you live and I WOULD BE CORRECT. Quite simply it is extremely difficult to keep Cyclura if their kept inside most of the year. I don't mean they will die but that it is NOT a suitable herp to keep in cold climates unless one has a great deal of extra money to use to construct proper enclosures. There is a gentleman in Wyoming who has built at GREAT expense wonderful buildings for his lizards but most folks can't. Should herps be white listed according to the area they live? Should Cyclura only be kept in Florida and California? Speaking of Cyclura do you realize a lg. one could easily sever a finger or perhaps a bite and shake on the wrist might result in death in terms of bleeding to death. These creatures you, me, and others keep are really only a hazard to the keeper NOT the public at large. To make a suggestion like that reminds me of a socialistic society upon which the foundation of this great nation holds [used to anyway] itself to a higher standard than to protect the citizens from them selves. When you say an approved list you will find NO sympathy or respect here as it goes against everything I hold dear [not just about herps which you still don't get]. IT'S ABOUT FREEDOM. Freedom was aquired by a great cost in blood and anguish and I still believe in America. You might find more support in Venenzuela or Cuba perhaps but not here...THAT'S A RIDICULOUS CONCEPT....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Your first post is the epitome of why this trade is so shady. I won't quote it. Too extreme.

However,

"I could say that it is impossible for you to maintain Cyclura under optimal conditions because of where you live and I WOULD BE CORRECT. Quite simply it is extremely difficult to keep Cyclura if their kept inside most of the year. I don't mean they will die but that it is NOT a suitable herp to keep in cold climates unless one has a great deal of extra money to use to construct proper enclosures."

Why do you think I'm now regretting every herp I've had? I've had this cuban rock for a while and it's very nice and socialized. Luckily enough for me I live in an area that at times has a higher UV index than some other temperate locations.. but that is a moot point and you are right.

Also you're missing the fact (stated, I don't know which post exactly) that I believe (as of the last few years of my life) that both the Iguana genera and Cyclura genera are "injurious" and "unmanageable". (this i do have a bit of experience in. as I have kept one of each to adulthood, not an amazing repertoire but whatever. I've found the green iguana to be bad for the pet trade) The one thing that cyclura have over Iguana iguana is that they grow a bit slower, allowing more time to design said monumental enclosure. These are the ONLY herbivorous species that I think this way about. The only way to injure yourself with a tortoise is either by the strange event of "being beaked" by it during feedings or in transport by lifting with your back, and not your legs.

Wow I just read this thread and all I can say is Good posts Tom.Also this is what we are coming up against people who are looking to give our rights away as fast as they can.There belief system can not understand that the average joe can keep a venomous animal.Well the fact is the truly best animal keepers and breeders do not work for any zoo.The people with the true passions amature in latin means to love.We love what we do and this is just not understood by white listing commie socialistic narrow minded individuals and can not be explained in any way.The problem is this is what mainstream America has become.
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Archie Bottoms