Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Got this Gal this past weekend at the Columbia SC show for 90$, and I think she is a good looking generic Blairs phase. However, another person at the show was not sure she's 100%. Im up for letting you all have at it and give me your thoughts because if I use her in breeding, I want to be honest about her parantage. Thanks!

Alex

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Boa- Hogg Island, Bull: 1 yellow, 4 normals, 1 Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada, 1 Kingsville TX Red Bull, 2 Corns- Okeetee, SC, 2 Foxes- Western, 2 Gophers- Sonoran- Cochise Co. AZ, 2 Kings- Black Easterns (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY, 4 Coastal CA, 2 NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.)2 Gray Banded 'Blair's', 2 Speckled, Harris Co. & Liberty Co. TX, Pines: 2 Carolina Northerns (M from NC, F from SC), 3 Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock), 1 Southern- faded pattern, 2 Pythons- Ball, Rats: 2 Black, Henderson Co. NC, 2 Western Green, Mt. Hopkins, Cochise Co. AZ, 11 Tarantulas, 4 Widows, 125 Orchid plants, 8 Outdoor Bonsai growing with the Roses, 10 African Violets, 20 assorted Tropical plants, 2 Freshwater Planted Aquariums

Looks like a Ruthveni cross to me......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Yeah, I think it probably does have something other than Alterna in it. John is probably right it does look like it has some Ruthven or some other milk snake, but my bet is Ruthven.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

n/p
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

looks more ruthveni or msp thayeri than alterna....but a nice clean & healthy animal.....here's a pure alterna....a real SCREAMER!!!......at least i screamed when he attacked my Q-beam....

Whoever sold you that snake for 90 bucks and claims it is an alterna needs to get smacked. Can you tell us who sold it to you?

But no, it is absolutely, 100% NOT a pure alterna, no question about it. I would return the snake and get my money back if I were you.
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Brad Alexander

FullSpectrumHerps.com

I agree with the others.. That animal is Def. NOT 100% Alterna!

~ Mike Russo

which one???

Vader must be the non-alterna
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

While the source- Wildside Exotic Pets, Oakwood, GA was selling animals for their supplier, and would not help me out when I called them today- (I told them I'd steer clear of them in future) a local pet shop who I get crickets from was able to. She gave me 70$ credit for it, which is better than not getting anything. I am also heavy into West African Dwarf Cichlid fish- Pelvicachromis taeniatus- being my absolute favorite fish - period. She is going to use my credit to get me a few pairs of them for me if she can find them- which is fine by me. They look awesome in my planted tanks, and never cease to not be in reds, greens, yellows, and irridecent blues.
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Boa- Hogg Island, Bull: 1 yellow, 4 normals, 1 Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada, 1 Kingsville TX Red Bull, 2 Corns- Okeetee, SC, 2 Foxes- Western, 2 Gophers- Sonoran- Cochise Co. AZ, 2 Kings- Black Easterns (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY, 4 Coastal CA, 2 NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.)2 Gray Banded 'Blair's', 2 Speckled, Harris Co. & Liberty Co. TX, Pines: 2 Carolina Northerns (M from NC, F from SC), 3 Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock), 1 Southern- faded pattern, 2 Pythons- Ball, Rats: 2 Black, Henderson Co. NC, 2 Western Green, Mt. Hopkins, Cochise Co. AZ, 11 Tarantulas, 4 Widows, 125 Orchid plants, 8 Outdoor Bonsai growing with the Roses, 10 African Violets, 20 assorted Tropical plants, 2 Freshwater Planted Aquariums

C'mon now Bobby... Would i ever say anything bad about Vader??

~ Mike Russo

sadly vader has passed....i freaking loved that ugly bastage....the guy that was with me when i rescued the west langtry gene pool by removing vader also passed several years ago....i gotta gret back there.......

Bob, I won't have as awesome a looker as Vader, but my Langtry animals will suffer from his removal from the gene pool. You do need to get back out there with that cut torch of yours!
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Todd Hughes

I have to agree, this animal doesn't appear to be 100% alterna. I'm wondering if anyone here knows the specific physical traits (head size, head scale patterns, scale counts, etc) that can be used to differentiate a Gray Banded from a Ruthveni. That would be the best and cheapest way to make the determination.

On a related thread, the reason I'm really interested in finding out this information is that I'm working on a breeding exercise to move the Albino trait from a Ruthveni to a generic Gray Banded. I believe I have the 1/16 albino gray banded cross from an F3 generation, and would like to do more than guess at it. Like this animal, strictly using color patterns to makes the determination of gray banded purity really difficult, which is even more so in an albino. So....does anyone have info on how to tell an alterna from a ruthveni based upon physical traits?

BTW...just in case that this approach has any possibility in helping to determine the % gray banded in my animal, I have kept a recent shed so I can more easily determine head scale patterns, scale counts, etc....and for those who are interested, yes, my albino is absolutely gorgeous!

With hybrids there is really no rule on scale counts or color or patter to follow as any or all of them could "check out"... especially for any animal that has been backcrossed again for a generation or two.

The best thing to rely on is the history of the animal you choose to work with, and that is only as good as records or intentions of the people you get them from in the first place.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

The ventral shot, where the red band wrapped around the body iced the deal for me. Here's an interesting piece written by someone we all know and love...

Robert
Link

Great input...here's what I found out.

General Ruthveni
Dorsal = 23
Ventral = 182-196
Sub Caudal = 49-57
Infralabial = 8-9
Supralabaial = 7-8
Color Pattern = Rings cross belly
Head = Milk snake like narrow, standard eye set

General Alterna
Dorsal = 25
Ventral = 210-232
Sub Caudal = 56-62
Infralabial = 10
Supralabaial = 6-8
Color Pattern = Rings do not cross belly
Head = wide at jaws, bulging eyes

My Langtry Female:
Dorsal = 22
Ventral = 210
Sub Caudal = 57
Infralabial = 10
Supralabaial = 7
Color Pattern = Ring do not cross belly
Head = wide at jaws, bulging eyes

My Albino Cross
Dorsal = 25
Ventral = 197
Sub Caudal = 56
Infralabial = 9
Supralabaial = 7
Color Pattern = Rings do not cross belly
Head = wide at jaws, bulging eyes

Given this data it looks like my Albino Cross appears to be a 50% Ruthveni/50% Gray Banded, which puts it in the 1/8 RAaa probability for his clutch rather than the 1/16 AAaa I was hoping for.

Oh well, still this is very good input and really helps me out to work my punnet square calculations and to decide which ones to breed in the next generation.

Thanks,
Roger

I have in my possession a hybrid from our home breeding that is almost absolutely identical to yours. It is a alterna/greeri cross. The belly pattern is a dead ringer look-alike.

Marlon