Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A post by Draybar in previous thread (forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1794878,1797169) me to do a little research into which structures of the brain are responsible for the pleasure sense and whether or not reptiles possess those structures.

Granted my search was cursory, but never the less in my interpretation, indicates that yes, reptiles do possess that generalized structure, the limbic system and its constituents, which is strongly associated with the pleasure reponse in mammals.

Here are three links for convenience:

Pleasure Centers
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasure_center

Limbic System
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system

Medial Forebrain Bundle (yes, reptiles have this)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medial_forebrain_bundle

Reptilian Neurological Complex
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_complex

Mammalian / Reptilian forebrain homology
www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6SYT-45DDHNN-1N&_user=10&_coverDate=03%2F31%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1257887186&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a07c49db06366e706db51b4231f4a97a

Aside from all the complex neurological anatomy, which even to date is far from perfectly understood by science, it's a no brainer (pun intended)...

On cold days I'm drawn by expectation of pleasure toward the warmth of a fire but I know not to touch as experience has taught me that would be painful. On cool days reptiles are drawn to warm rocks but on hot days, they remain in the cooler shade. Why? go figure

Pleasure and pain are the motivators which reward creatures for advantageous behaviors and punish for those harmful.

To confound the issue, in humans and our articificially produced environments (including food types, availability, and all kinds of other stuff) the reward/punishment system has been thrown a twist as we have available to us in excess things which in our evolutionary past were necessary for our survival but difficult to come by, like french fries for instance ...our innate craving for these has not yet been tempered by our ability to produce them in mass.

But, it does seem quite obvious that the underlying impulses are of the same origin for us as in reptiles and other creatures, albeit the ultimate interpretation and expression of those impulses is progressively more complex commensurate with more complex neurology.

So, although there is no way for me to know absolutely, I'm gonna give reptiles the benefit of the doubt and suggest that they do in fact experience pleasure and pain. Do they cogitate about it, experience emotional turmoil and seek therapy? Probably not.

Are you still awake?
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Have a nice day

Website: SerpenTrack

"Are you still awake?"

Man!, that cracked me the hell UP!!..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

This topic is similar to ones I've raised in the past where I question how much we know about reptile intelligence & behavior. The common assumption is that they are dim-witted and simple-minded, just because they don't communicate in the same way as we do.

For many years, the same debate raged over mammals like monkeys, dogs & cats. Eventually, the consensus has been reached by most people that they are more intelligent, aware & gifted than we previously understood.

I once saw a video of a forest fire and various creatures fleeing it. One of the creatures fleeing was a snake. The snake was not successful, however. Caught in flames it writhed in pain and thrashed violently as it died. Just exactly as a mammal would have done.

I've known many instances of my snakes TREMENDOUSLY enjoying being caressed & massaged - just like a person would. My Black Milk Snake especially likes being caressed; you can mesmerize him with the right strokes.

State biologists in AZ reported a mountain kingsnake that would crawl out into the open to briefly expose himself to nesting birds. The birds attacked him to defend their nests, and he would run for cover. Then, safely concealed, he watched the birds to see which trees they flew up into, and followed them to raid their nests!

I suspect that in many years scientists will announce astonishing new finds regarding reptile intelligence. Human understanding advances only slowly.

Less than a century ago, women could not vote nor own land in America, and were regarded as poor drivers. Those attitudes eventually changed. Less than 3 centuries ago, Africans were regarded at three-fifths human and were slaves. Attitudes regarding them slowly changed, too…

Ever forward!!

Here we go again...

Gave this one up for dead.

Anyway, I'm not one to dismiss categorically your assertions Ameron but you've gone out on a limb again here with at least a couple statements.

"I've known many instances of my snakes TREMENDOUSLY enjoying being caressed & massaged"

This may be so, that they enjoy the sensation, but we have no way of actually proving that...of course, it's also pretty hard to prove that one's lover truly enjoys one's affections. Maybe all that moaning and groaning is just an instinctive response...and in fact, it may well be.

"State biologists in AZ reported a mountain kingsnake that would crawl out into the open to briefly expose himself to nesting birds. The birds attacked him to defend their nests, and he would run for cover. Then, safely concealed, he watched the birds to see which trees they flew up into, and followed them to raid their nests!"

Ok, now this reeks of anecdotal non-science. Why? Just because it's obvious how difficult, if not impossible, it would be to determine that snakes intentions. Can you please offer a link to any more information about this? I'm very interested in the observations and maybe there was actually some science applied to it, in which case it would be fascinating, if only food for thought.

Otherwise, as you might guess, I'm certainly open to the possibility that animals possess more complex cognitive process than we have traditionally given them credit for, but let's be wary of allowing pendulum to swing to far toward the irreponsibly credulous.

Fascinating topic for discussion if approached critically but at the same time, with and open mind.
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Have a nice day

Website: SerpenTrack