Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just thought I'd share this pic, I think I'll hold back this one.

That is a real nice one man!. Did you capture that one, or produce it?

I've always loved those, and have also produced a few many years ago.

It might have even been you, I can't quite remember, but a nice assortment of some really sweet one's were posted here a while back.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

No I dont breed anything, I collected her in January, I am a Class III collector and find 20-30 every other year but this year I found even more, dont know if I want to sell this one but maybe if someone made me an offer I can't resist....

The only people that have a hard time with these are those that try to change the snake for captivity instead of doing their best to replicate their snakes own habitat, here is what I have learned in 22 years as a Class III collector, I sell mostly kings and ratsnakes, but half the people that ask about my kings first question is always "do they eat dead/thawed mice"..., this mentality is a red flag for the novice, these folks that wish to work with the "gem" of the snake world should be concentrating more on how best to replicate it's natural environment, not how to change them in captivity, a few things to keep in mind: They are secretive, sub terrainean, and nocturnal, Imagine for a minute what your life would be like if you only went out at night and stayed away from other people and lived underground... "TIMID" comes to mind, I take all 18 of my fresh WCs out every few nights and handle them to drink, this makes them look forward to the lid comming off and I do this only for the first few weeks, afterwords I put water bowls in their containers (12" x 9" x 3" , 1/2 aspen 1/2 coconut) also improtant is to move very slow, especially with hand movements, (one inch pr/sec.) remember "TIMID"...within seconds I can tell if they want back in their container, in such a case I would accommodate, or they are willing to be kept out (only 10 min.or so), in which case I let them slide out of my hand down on the floor, keeping them aware of my presence, and then directly but slowly pick them back up, then as soon as they put up the slightest fight I let them crawl out on my hands and right back down to the floor again without ever gripping them, do this the right amount of times (different for every individual snake) pr night and this will acclimate them very well, basically it shows the snake that your not persueing it for the purpose of eating it, instead they will lose their fear of you, and I have also found that when replacing them back into their containers after handling it better if you just point their head over the rim and LET THEM decide to go back inside (sometimes takes 30 seconds) vs. you placing it back inside and then rapidly closing a lid over its head, key to acclamation is trying not to ever make it strike at you or even coil up and stress because of your hastful actions, slow down for a few months, their not ratsnakes, these DO need to be babied for a few months, and as they should they have some requirements, thus if you give them a cool damp side and a warm dry side (aspen/pine shavings on the dry warm side and moist coconut pulp on the cool damp side), and also keep it dark in the room at night, and no tvs or loud vibrating stereos on the other side of the same wall it's cage backs up to, they'll persist to try very hard to escape even the smallest vibrations, also never let any of your WC snakes see even a glimps or a sent of your dog or cat, the meir sight/sent on your hands will terrify small WC snakes, but if you do comply they will eat any-THING that MOVES inside it's container AT NIGHT, most folks jaw would be hung open at this point after hearing all this, but if you know scarlet kings like I do then you know its the coolest snake there is, next to Drymaracon Coupri of course, which reminds me, cage size matters, small vs. big, their not indigos and big cages only entice escape and thus cause stress, these are the common fundamentals most novice Scarlet king owners are missing, still dont know if your qualified? if you name your snakes or have an albino anything your probably not a qualified candidate for the scarlet king...sorry if this offends anyone, but my intentions are to help alot of people that think the snake is the one thats not cooperating. JB

Just don't let them watch James Bond movies or they will be very upset and may even try to bite for no reason.

L8r

Those are some interesting opinions.

What is a "Class lll collector"?

-Dell

I pay the state for a permit to collect and sell wildlife, Class III is a license for animals that have no chance to inflict harm on humans... Class I is the other end, animals that can kill humans.

Yeah, everyone requires a class III permit from Fish and Wildlife to legally sell and display reptiles as well anyway. It's very standard proceedure. In Florida even many years ago(mid 90's), if you posessed more than eleven snake's, you legally had to have a permit for them, no matter what harmless species/ssp. they were. Filling out a form and $50 bucks does the deed now at the present time.

Of couse now there is some additional paperwork to fill out in case of emergency, as well as evacuation proceedures for said animal's in the case of any pending natural disasters, etc...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Interesting information in these posts. I however, my opinion by the way, do not believe in the collection and SELLING of wild caught animals. Not cool in my book.

I fully agree!. At most(if not all) reptile shows, you can only legally sell captive-bred animals anyway, but that sure as heck isn't to say that one can't easily dance around the law and do this though if he/she really is intent on doing it. There are TONS of captive reptiles that are bred now in captivity, so there is no justification of taking wild animals out of their natural element whatsoever. Like wild animal's don't have it tough enough with todays habitat distruction anyway!

A couple snakes to propagate some captives isn't so bad, but harvesting them from the wild like a wheat crop just ain't right!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Exactly Doug!! Some say that collection does not hurt the population. I disagree. Case in point---I have an area I have herped since I was a kid and I used to see tons of snakes every time I went to this location. In comes illegals fishing the shore and they start killing snakes they see while looking for bait. This has been going on for four years and now I have trouble finding just a few copperheads. (most common snake there). They are killing them and not collecting them, but the end result is the same, is it not?. The collection of a few snakes to improve a breeding colony, start one, or to keep as a pet, I don't think does much harm to the population. The other problem with collection for selling is you give others the idea that they can make money doing it and that just makes the problem way worse. Our society is so reactive and NOT pro-active and will wait until a species is endangered to put proper bag limits or protect anything.

That is so right Joe. Most humans usually wait until things are so damn obvious and out of hand before even thinking about doing anything about it. So many things about the world we live in are just too little, too late to attempt to put back even CLOSE to the way they were. I have said many times that it is far easier to prevent certain problems than it is to attempt to "fix" them later on when the damage is already done.

After all, how many of the general population care about animal's they don't even ever see(or even care two craps about in the first place)when they can go play a relaxing round of golf on the new golf course that was just developed on a vast plot of so-called "useless" wilderness habitat?.

Brian Hubbs' new kingsnake book addresses a whole bunch of this sad reality. Story after sad story, and many before and after photo's to accurately convey this. Can you just imagine all the different types of animal's that get buried alive when an army of bulldozer plows through their habitat??, most certainly can't, but it must be quite grim.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I dont think there will even be fixing of problems. Most folks dont care if they EVER see a scarlet king, box turtle, or even a little green anole. Just the way it is and has been. I will be honest guys, its a HUGE Catch 22. I dont live in a cardboard box or hut in the middle of the wild, nor do I want to either. I dig my concrete paved roads, buying coffee, cigs and gas at the corner gas station, and other amenities life offers. Hey, I am sure my house is built on top the carcasses of at least a few dead animals for sure. Its a sad truth, and prime habitat will forever be sacrificed for us humans and our silly needs. I cannot condemn the golfers wanting bigger and better courses just because I do not play golf. Do I think there are enough of these facilities? Yes, I do. But still, they are paying for them and using them, so they will be built. More and more people need houses and schools just like us. Are we to condemn them for their needs? Just being philosophical, but real at the same time. Not trying to ruffle feathers. I just find things like our countries fight to stop rainforest development in South America where the populace is clambering to get out of poverty funny, when we did the same thing to our own country and could probably give two flips while we were doing it. Could you imagine what President Hoover or FDR would have told an international commitee that approached them saying they shouldnt take advantage of our natural resources for the betterment of the economy cause it was harming the ecology of mother earth?

Yeah, I totally roll with all you said there, all that stuff certainly did go through my thoughts as I was even typing the earlier post. More population, more stuff needed to accomodate, simple as that,....thus the "catch-22" you spoke of. It's just the way it is. Sad but true, and a big ugly wheel that will NEVER stop turning.

That is reality I guess

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

too bad more like minded people don't spend their money and invest their time in buying up tracts of said land, and perpetuate them into trusts to be "forever" for the people to utilize for simple wildlife viewing, but alas, again the catch 22 with people being the end all, even the bad ones.
We are a funny, sad species, we can build and destroy, but cannot create anything but more of ourselves...take lots of pictures and share them with your kids and grandkids, take them to see it all before there is nothing more to see.

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Todd Hughes

Bigsnakes are in a different catagory, they dont stand a chance in the wild with out our breeding efforts, simply put, this is a fact for flat florida, maybe not where you live but hear this, "Kill a few big snakes you could wipe out a population, remove a few small snakes your only making it easier for the lizard population to regain which inturn feeds the small undetectable kings. the Feds are wrong I am right, and I dont dislike you folks that think I'm a bad person, I just think of you as EXTRA concerned, kinda a "mother-hen type" which the worlds need more of but as for the scarlet king snake, I could never in my life put a dent in their numbers, even if they were worth $1000.00 each we could never find them all and they would make their come back as soon as the food permets...the frezzes we had this winter killed huge #s of snakes and food items. my kings are currently sitting in the lap of luxuary...

I believe I agree w/ everything you stated Joe, one point I'd like to make however, is that I think there should be a bag limit on all collecting. Much like purchasing a hunting license. Some bag limits of certain species/subspecies would allow more or less in the given species bag limit.
jodscovry claimed to collect over 20 and 30 elapsoides, even more one year, and in my opinion, those kinds of numbers are shameful collecting numbers, greedy even, especially this day and age.

-Dell

well it was greed that put me in the position that I am in, I'll give you that but not on my part but the banks, and I do expect that one day there will be bag limits but for now it has to pay my bills, and my emails are full of SK lovers and I hunted the same this year as I have in the past but produced more this year probably due to the cold and rain, but I only collect for 3-4 months every other year, but I have big bills, and work is slow and I like to find them so as long as folks want to own them I'll help, your own snakes came from wild animals, I know one thing, ...there will always be the huggers...

Yeah your right, the animals in my collection did come from wild stock, and a number of them collected by me. I'm proud of the fact that I know where the stock originated from, much like you are that your doing so well in the field finding Scarlets now. But I still think 20 or 30 wild Scarlets taken from their habitat in one year and dropped in to the pet trade, is over kill.
You very well could be right, maybe elapsoides can sustain the kind of collecting your doing, but I still feel that a bag limit needs to be in place to protect animals from the over collecting that goes on.

jodscovry wrote: "there will always be the huggers..."

I'm not sure you meant that statement to apply to me or not, but if you did, it got a chuckle out of me because thats one thing I've never been called before. All the other choice names I've been called before, but "hugger", that would be a new one.

-Dell

I think we all have alot to learn from a guy like Joe. There have always been collectors, and the state of FL has done the proper thing by necessitating permits. The only question is does it go far enough.....and the only person to ask this of is Joe! He knows the habitat, the microclimate, etc. From a scientific point of view he has a TON of knowledge that I would love to see tapped....and you cant do that if you "put him out of business". Without being specific, dynamics such as sizes/sexes/locales/other species data collected over time is the truest way to figure out sustainable yield. There is NOTHING wrong with taking sustainable yield anywhere on anything.
Dell, you make a big deal of 20-30 snakes yet you have no idea of population dynamics in the areas he hunts. Its concievable that the carrying capacity in prime habitat is 100/acre! If it is too many who suffers?? HE DOES! There certainly arent that many guys like him in his areas doing the same thing. Small species such as milks simply cant be erradicated by a single individual, but its guys like Hubbs publishing how/when/where to find specific animals that kills sites! Bulldozers. Strip malls. Cats!
I'm tired of the armchair herpers and those that think collecting has no part in our hobby. These are wild animals, thats why most of us got interested in them to begin with. If you first fell in love with a albino snake raise your hand! My point exactly. There arent commercially viable CB alternatives to some of these species, and for these collectors are invaluable. If you want to argue past this take up captive breeding them and put Joe out of business I dare you! LMAO!

haha!that was nice of you Jeff, I always thought I was alone on this forum...

Joe, as a Marine Biologist for Woods Hole I would go out on fishing vessels to cover all kinds of fisheries. Now I have all the book smarts and common sense a college kid can have but when put side by side with a professional fisherman I realize pretty quickly who knows more. Eliminating fishermen was never anyone's intention, but we would collect as much data as we could and try to get the decision makers to use it properly. I think we can all agree that socialistic science is better for everyone than capitalistic science. But without the best knowledge of these animals all the protection in the world wont help them in the wild or captivity. Guys like you Joe have the best knowledge, I just hope there are smart scientists in FL that endenture guys like you and your unadulterated data when ammending any laws regarding collection/sales. Doing something wrong is still doing something, which is much much different than doing nothing and hoping for the best. The natural balance has shifted, we all have to realize this.

to the FWC...

Jeff the biologist wrote:
"Dell, you make a big deal of 20-30 snakes yet you have no idea of population dynamics in the areas he hunts. Its concievable that the carrying capacity in prime habitat is 100/acre!"

Jeff I don't think I made that big of a deal out of it, but what ever. I'll still stand by what I said as greedy number collecting.
And Jeff it's also conceivable that the carrying capacity in prime habitat is much lower then what you're guessing at per acre.

Schofield also wrote:
"If it is too many who suffers?? HE DOES! There certainly arent that many guys like him in his areas doing the same thing. Small species such as milks simply cant be erradicated by a single individual, but its guys like Hubbs publishing how/when/where to find specific animals that kills sites! Bulldozers. Strip malls. Cats!"

Boy I get tired of the soapbox you stand on to state your garrulous rhetoric at times Jeff. Comparing Hubbs's book to bulldozers, and stripmalls is asinine.

Did you read this? jodscovry wrote:
"...and BTW I do agree that bag limit should be implied."

-Dell

I have to agree with jeff, writing a book describing exactly where prime habitat is located would stagger snake populations there, I have always been concerned that some one would pick up on my spots, and dell you should not use my quote regarding bag limits as a negitive, as I stated the limit would likly be more than I collected in this my record year.

Have you read any of Brian's books? He doesn't give out specific locality information in them. He's one of the more paranoid herpers I've been around.

jodscovry wrote:
"describing exactly where prime habitat is located would stagger snake populations there"

Doesn't this statement concern you about the argument you're trying to make?

You also wrote:
"regarding bag limits as a negitive, as I stated the limit would likly be more than I collected in this my record year."

Oh I'm well aware of how high a bag limit could be set, and still have little affect on the given population, and I still support a bag limit.

-Dell

I just ment that printing this info in a book would cause many local snake hunters to swarm on the location, but you say he did not give lacalities so I recant that statment...

I must admit Joe, someone on this forum taking back something they said, very rare my man, well done! I emailed you back about your letter to the FWC and so all here know---I do believe you care about the snakes and their habitat. I am still not for comercial collecting and think you are probably an exception among collectors though.

Thanks Joe, I just grew up in a world where no the common motto for snakes was "the only good snake is a dead one" ...all my friends would brag about killing them and I noticed early as a kid that big snakes were being run over everywhere, and developtment was decimating habitat, I knew at 12 years of age before I ever heard a adult state that snakes dont stand a chance. Now, ever since Steve Erwin became popular and albinos took root, the snake pet trade has EXPLODED, and all these people think I'm the one doing wrong, when all along I felt no one cared the least bit EXCEPT me, too many folks out there are thinking in the present, I try to think of not just future but distant future, the coachwhips and scarlets would be either extinct or just left behind and forgotten if people never get to work with them. The big snakes #s will diminish too, yes, even in the pettrade if the ignorant albino fasination continues, to me 90% of the people on these forums are almost "child like" regarding real concern for NORMAL snakes #s in nature, the new snake pet trade is destroying the gene pool, and once again I feel like I'm the only person that cares. I cant believe people breed albinos and would even consider to criticize someone like me, I actually had a kid comment on a post I made regarding normal patterned Fl.Pines and his comment boild my blood " Why would you want a ugly old normal when you could have a beautiful albino" that stupid comment sums up all I have to say....

"" Why would you want a ugly old normal when you could have a beautiful albino"

I agree, that is about as ignorant as it gets!!, and would burn me up big-time as well!! That person obviously doesn't know diddly squat about the natural history of Southern Pines, or probably any other snakes for that matter to be quite honest. Just the fact that it was said proves that to me(and you too).

I have(and breed) a few morphs of different types too, but I also own and breed many genuine pure non-morph forms of snake subspecies, and certainly appreciate them as much, if not MORE than just about anyone in the hobby. As a matter of fact, I have several types that I acquired only for the fact they were normal het for nothing authentic forms.

I like to see the integrity of many normal wild-type snakes continue to carry on in the hobby, whereas many are all consumed with producing "purple passion fruit" x "swirly barber pole", het for "smuckers strawberry jam" "turbo-line", het for "paisley-print" type snakes..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I love that last paragraph doug, still laughing, think I'll even print that quote, well put buddy.

Dell, my rhetoric is the accepted scientific method. If you dont believe it come up with a better idea.Fight city hall while you're at it.

While I roughly estimated carrying capacity of some of Joe's areas at 100/acre sure some of it could have been lower, but it could have also been much higher too! Its fair to compare hunting scarlets to fishing, and there is a "commercial viability" of any given area. He has to be able to find # scarlets/day to make it worth his while. He drives 30 miles to get to his "spot" where he finds "#"/day, dont you think he drives by maybe 5-10x "#"?? If he hunts too much in a given area he will lower his amount per day to the point where its not commercially viable...yet there will still be a significant population there. What is good for him may not work for you up there in Kazinski country...but you could find out. If you took one spot and removed all the milks you could for say a month or 2.....would it affect your yield? More than likely. But if you compared the numbers year after year a funny thing may happen....you could find that fecundity and recruitment overcome a single predator. Maybe not. But even if you can affect it that itself is significant simply because there is no such data to compare it to. All data is good data!!
As a biologist it was my job to kill all fish I found, simply to ID, weigh and measure later. To make an omlette you gotta break some eggs! There were less fish but we knew more about them, and the power of that knowledge we use every day in science. Relating it to milks, there is no data, a guy like Joe is invaluable. Wouldnt it be nice to know that in MT the average carrying capacity of a acre is 10? If we had such data we could easily say to responsible collectors"you can take one from here and two from there and 10 from there per year with a permit". Permits make things enforcable, reasonable and scientific limits makes it ok to replentish bloodlines and agreeable collectors. It removes the stigma that alot here label Joe with, unjustly I might add. To do nothing is just that, doing nothing. The reason for complete state bans is either from lack of $$ to do such studies to establish carrying capacities or simple ignorance in thinking if you make everything illegal no one will touch them....and if they do the state can make $$ off of them.
Dell, a guy like you out in the field should put that knowledge into HARD DATA that you could use for the benefit for all dont you think? Why not??

I can always count on those comments made by someone here that like you and the federal regulators that think that snakes are better left alone in the woods, I think breeding albinos should be made an offence. but let me run this by you Joe, I drove 30 miles to my collecting spot and in that distance would you not agree that I had to have drove past hundreds if not thousands on the road sides and nearby woods and feilds, now in the woods I must be walking past hundreds on trail sides and undreground, therefore I am collecting .1%... I leave the babies in the woods and don't collect in the same sopt every year, and then theres the fact that very few others work with them or collect as many, I don't think I should not be rediculed, I'm not only collecting and suppling to the enthuesiastic, a "Gem" of the snake world but thru this experience I have also obtained a wealth of husbandry knowledge to aid in the trades quest to propagate this snake, like every other gem in the snake world, don't be so gullable, the small snakes will always be in the unurbanized woods as long as there is food, and folks should be thankfull that there still are people like me out there, other wise there would no gems in homes of people in the snake world. Big snakes however are almost gone in flat florida and if the regulators dont change the laws to let/require breeders in each state to breed at least one speciecs of concern for the sole purpose of repopulation in State parks where their numbers have diminshed to nill,they will be gone in florida south of tampa in ten years, but imagine seeing indigos and EDBs in the parks instead of ferral hogs and armadillos... BTW the first albino scarlet king I find I'mgiong to relocate on an Island in the middle of a swamp in the middle of no where, hows that make you feel joe...JB

Joecop makes a valid point Joe. Many have witnessed or heard from reliable sources about horrible habitat destruction by commercial collectors. Not everyone in your profession is ethical or views their collection habits the same way. Sorry man, thats just the way it is. I commend your efforts for being ethical. Yes, you are supplying an animal to the hobby and hopefully helping others gain appreciation for it. Still, seeing entire areas of trees, both dead and living, stripped to the core, and every bush shredded to capture species in the area is real as well. Some commercial collectors would just as soon use bulldozers and heavy equipment and rape an entire area of profitable species if they could.

where I collect the pine trees are so dead, and common in every stage of rot that you could not ever tell I was there, and I dont see and have never seen collectors like you have discribed.

Well, I personally saw one commerical collector with a POTATO SACK (not a pillow case) FULL with speckled kings and a few ratsnakes he collected along a stretch of semi-deserted highway once. I am PRETTY DARN SURE he impacted the speckled king population in that area with that effort. Also, a herp buddy and fellow herp society member told me how he found his best LA milk area COMPLETELY DESTROYED after he foolheartedly told a commerical collector about his spot. No offense again, but there is GOOD AND BAD in every profit making venture in the world from horse racing to car sales to medical services. And also no offense, but you mentioned you dont collect the babies, just adults. However, do you realize you are collecting the viable breeding adults that would be able to repopulate the area if you only collected babies and juvies? Also, most herpers know the adults of certain species are easier to acclimate to convenient food sources like mice over the babies of those species who may only want lizards or treefrogs. Species that come to mind are greybanded kings, transpecos ratsnakes, and scarlet kings.

your assuming that I had collect ALL the adults, this is not so, hundreds are left undetected, without doubt.

Kevin, I could not have said it better. I had replied about the baby collecting on the other forum the same way earlier. I myself have a herp spot that IS being destroyed by people killing the snakes. Taking them does the same thing, so yes collector, I have seen the problem first hand. There are bag limits in MD and if I ever see someone collecting over this limit I will turn them in so fast their heads would spin. Couldn't these collectors just do another part time job to pay the bills? If everyone in need of more cash collected snakes the wild population would be in big trouble fast.

I found all 42 kings in 17 locations, over a four month period, some of these spots are 20 miles apart. I would not do something that I felt was wrong or not fair and If you all have the background I think you have then you know that the reason that folks have trouble with them is because their so uncommon the pet trade so I am ONE of VERY FEW collectors that do this well at scarlet kings, please tell me you agree, look at the classifieds, five a year are posted and usually one at a time, I think one day they will be more common due to better husbandry tips. you collector bashers are just too damn negative... oh and this is my other job, Im a cabinet installer by trade. Another thing is don't assume that just because some diehard collector devistated your spot that the snakes are all gone, your friend only found the surfaced ones, 90% are still safe underground and I ll bet you go ther now and your snakes are just as common as you remember, I have hunted burns where everything gets consumed by fire I find 50 dead snakes, but five years later the little snakes are everywhere. ...and BTW I do agree that bag limit should be implied. not a problem, even then it would probaly be "no more than 50 pr/yr"...

Joe, it does make me feel better. Like I said earlier, good and bad in all fields of business. I am not condemning your business at all by the way. If you abide by the laws regulating your collecting permit, go for it and the best of luck. Your field knowledge probably does surpass many on these forums as well. However, there are many who feel captive bred is the way to go and would prefer to see someone with your expertise make the effort to captive breed these animals than hunt mother nature that is unfortunately shrinking at what appears to be a rapid rate. Bad enough prime habitat is being used for shopping malls and golf courses already. Be aware not all in your business are ethical and many have seen the handy work of unethical collectors. Some habitat may bounce back as you suggest, but the flip side is some may not. Just the way it works I quess.

Joe, I hope I don't sound like a collector basher, because I do believe people should be able to collect/hunt, but give people your hand and they'll take your arm if they can. Which is why I'd like to see bag limits on collectors/hunters.

Oh and don't think I have on rose colored glasses either, I'm well aware of bag limits not being set at fair numbers for collectors/hunters. But you have to start some where, and improve it from there, hopefully.

-Dell

Back in the day I did my fair share of market hunting but I look back on that time with regret. Today I still collect and remove animals from the wild but under two conditions the first being for my personal and the second being removing animals from areas I know are about to be bulldozed. Even here, rescue animals are given to people interested in working with that particular locality not sold. Not to be holier than thou because it took me some time to grow into my current view but I don't look at market hunting favorably either. Personally, I'm glad you said something Joe.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Sorry I can't let you have the last word to this thred, I want you all to know that I have donated very many of the coachwhips that I've bread and collected over the years to people that I felt were qualified individuals, not as pets but as projects, and as I keep having to state here, I don't collect all year or every snake I see, These scarletkings are extreamly abundant in the lush, decidous forest where I collect, also this forest I mention is practicly endless, I could not ever put a dent in the populations of the small snakes there, nor do I wish to do such a thing, I have the same attitude from years of collecting but I'm a cabinet installer with big bills and everyones hands are in my pockets but I don't have my hands are in anybodys pockets so I beg you'alls forgiveness for pulling in some change for collecting/selling these abundant gems that not too many folks can find, but lets not forget that I have gained valuable info also makeing alot of qualified enthuesiests day at the same time... someone asked to see my set up. JB

I sure that on a case by case basis you'll find collectors who are operating well below the sustainable take of a given species but that is not my issue with market collecting. I just don't like the idea of removing an animal from secure habitat for profit. I was just stating an opinion, not making a moral judgment.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony, we can each agree the word PROFIT doesnt have to be money. In many cases these species simply arent available CB. And with the price of CB stock, there is no way a market collector can make a profit on animals commonly captive bred.
Many times I have tried to get people who breed succesfully to try their hands at rarer/more difficult species such as exotic tree snakes,etc. But instead they would rather have another albino this or a hypo that.
Lastly, Joe is hopefully passing along his knowledge of such animals. Individual hunters keeping a milk here or a king there...is almost always in the positive side of a cost/benefit analysis. The cost is how long and how much resources are taken when an animal is removed. The benefit doesnt end with the sale, the benefits are with suppliers, manufacturers, and the esoteric unquantifiable benefit of the end user. It could be a scientist doing a study, it could be a breeder refreshing his bloodline, and it could be a kid finding(or buying if no choice)his first snake. Education is a process, and each one of us has killed our fair share of specimens due to a multitude of reasons reaching our educated levels. While its our duty not to repeat the past, its also inevitable that some people have to learn some things the hard way. I for one would never discourage a educated person from trying to keep SKs, in fact each year I hold out hope that someone with true patience takes em up and keeps them special......without asking how to breed it to a Hondo...J

so what you are saying is the ends justifies the means.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

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Sometimes it does certainly. Sometimes it doesnt and animals are "wasted". I think most of us have more of a problem with the middle men and wholesalers than with the collectors. If every snake collected got to the final destination and was "used" it makes it difficult to argue against collection unless its either endangered or sustainable yield couldnt be met. Agree?

Jeff I've just developed a problem with collecting when the intent is to sell off what was caught. If someone wants a nice pair of easterns from my area I'd be more than glad to keep an eye out for a nice pair for them IF I felt they had a genuine interest in maintaining them for the long term. Going out and bagging 25 or so in a day and shipping them off to a wholesaler or putting them in the classified trolling for the first cat that drops a dime on them is another thing altogether.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

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We catch fish and KILL them and eat them, the snakes I sell are sold and bread not killed, and they rarly show up on classifieds but few times a year, I suppose you think because you had trouble raising a scarletking in your time that noone should have them, the snakes you have in your collection came from wild cought snakes found by someone like me, I'll never understand the people that love their snake but think all the rest should be left alone in the woods, if you feel angry when you see a snake dead on the road just think of how lucky all the kings are that I sell to someone that cherishes it like a piece of gold and gives it a life in nothing short of the lap of luxury. also I pay for a permit and pay my taxes and I would not collect and sell scarletkings unless first, they were as abundant as they are and second if they were not as in demand. not to mention I do NEED MONEY thanks to the greed of others in my world, not fair to the snake? bring back the economy, breed scarlet kings, I'll have to find another way to make extra cash, but PLEASE dont gripe about something you know obviously nothing about(that being snakes in the wild where I live) just lighten up on the collection of small snakes, go fight for whales or indigos, or something that IS declining at an alarming rate, you are, in a sence complaining about a fishermen FISHING, and for perhaps the most common species at that...oh and BTW I have never collected 24 scarletkings in a day, most was 7.

I just re-read my last postand it seems like I was chewing you out but those comments were geared more for those less concerned armchair critics that are sure to read this thread. JB

Not a problem. Like I said before I'm not making a moral judgment just stating what I personnally feel. To go along with this I am also increasingly having a difficult time with breeding and selling of captive herps. Too many people in it for the wrong reasons and I'm not so sure about my motivations anymore. Besides freeing time for family I find that I care for and enjoy my animals when there are fewer of them and I don't have neonates I NEED to move. Again this is not a dig at people who have and do more its just what I'm more comfortable with.

Oh and BTW, I've kept several scarlet kings quite successfully. I think they get a bum rap. People just want something that's an easy starter if you ask me. They look at a scarlet king and see a small lizard eater and don't look any further. For what its worth I believe one of the reasons they are not more widely worked with is because wc specimens are still relatively cheap and easy to come by (at least seasonally). Given this people aren't willing to pay a price that would support peoples time and effort breeding them.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM