Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The first thing I noticed upon collecting this king was that It's weight was evident, you don't see that much in these, It's belly is flat but still might be gravid...

Beautiful snake, man. It does look quite robust . . .

Scarlet kings seem to have a propensity for falling into swimming pools. Practically every one I have ever heard of being found has been found in the pool.
Are you going to keep it? I have also heard they are hard to keep as they are hard to feed.

The only people that have a hard time with these are those that try to change the snake for captivity instead of doing their best to replicate their snakes own habitat, here is what I have learned in 22 years as a Class III collector, I sell mostly kings and ratsnakes, but half the people that ask about my kings first question is always "do they eat dead/thawed mice"..., this mentality is a red flag for the novice, these folks that wish to work with the "gem" of the snake world should be concentrating more on how best to replicate it's natural environment, not how to change them in captivity, a few things to keep in mind: They are secretive, sub terrainean, and nocturnal, Imagine for a minute what your life would be like if you only went out at night and stayed away from other people and lived underground... "TIMID" comes to mind, I take all 18 of my fresh WCs out every few nights and handle them to drink, this makes them look forward to the lid comming off and I do this only for the first few weeks, afterwords I put water bowls in their containers (12" x 9" x 3" , 1/2 aspen 1/2 coconut) also improtant is to move very slow, especially with hand movements, (one inch pr/sec.) remember "TIMID"...within seconds I can tell if they want back in their container, in such a case I would accommodate, or they are willing to be kept out (only 10 min.or so), in which case I let them slide out of my hand down on the floor, keeping them aware of my presence, and then directly but slowly pick them back up, then as soon as they put up the slightest fight I let them crawl out on my hands and right back down to the floor again without ever gripping them, do this the right amount of times (different for every individual snake) pr night and this will acclimate them very well, basically it shows the snake that your not persueing it for the purpose of eating it, instead they will lose their fear of you, and I have also found that when replacing them back into their containers after handling it better if you just point their head over the rim and LET THEM decide to go back inside (sometimes takes 30 seconds) vs. you placing it back inside and then rapidly closing a lid over its head, key to acclamation is trying not to ever make it strike at you or even coil up and stress because of your hastful actions, slow down for a few months, their not ratsnakes, these DO need to be babied for a few months, and as they should they have some requirements, thus if you give them a cool damp side and a warm dry side (aspen/pine shavings on the dry warm side and moist coconut pulp on the cool damp side), and also keep it dark in the room at night, and no tvs or loud vibrating stereos on the other side of the same wall it's cage backs up to, they'll persist to try very hard to escape even the smallest vibrations, also never let any of your WC snakes see even a glimps or a sent of your dog or cat, the meir sight/sent on your hands will terrify small WC snakes, but if you do comply they will eat any-THING that MOVES inside it's container AT NIGHT, most folks jaw would be hung open at this point after hearing all this, but if you know scarlet kings like I do then you know its the coolest snake there is, next to Drymaracon Coupri of course, which reminds me, cage size matters, small vs. big, their not indigos and big cages only entice escape and thus cause stress, these are the common fundamentals most novice Scarlet king owners are missing, still dont know if your qualified? if you name your snakes or have an albino anything your probably not a qualified candidate for the scarlet king...sorry if this offends anyone, but my intentions are to help alot of people that think the snake is the one thats not cooperating. JB

Please see my post just above this one: print it, share it, save it...

man!,..I can relate 100 percent to every bit of that stuff man. I have tried telling people for years about lots of those very same things about extremely nervous and shy milks such as the scarlet and several others..LOL!

And the extremely slooooooooow methodical hand movements?,....so true!. When you get experienced like this, you can grab them without them even knowing you are doing it, as opposed to...."the MONSTER HAND FROM HELL!"(immediately followed with several loud echo's)

Good post!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

some times I wonder if anyone else(Ross Allen perhaps?)has seen near 400 scarlet kings in their life time, or am I the only such individual, I could write a book, the snake world is booming thanks to Steve Erwin....I also have gotten to know The mangrove Snapper like this too, as a spearfishermen for 25 years here in Sarasota, I kinda know what their thinking by their movements, their very courious, and get very smart with age, smarter than you'd ever think a fish could be...

Sure thing!. Yeah, anywhere near 400 is quite a few elapsoides man!, no doubt about it dude.

Man, I just had a huge interesting reply post to a bunch of all this stuff you mentioned, and then my finger hit the wrong freakin button at the very end and instantly.....POOF!, gone forever dangit!....oh well, anyhow, I definitely understand and relate to all this stuff you're talking about.

Too bad you couldn't read the post I screwed up, you would have loved it and understood every bit of it too.

regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Very cool info Joe!! I have a buddy who keeps a LA milk. Pretty much the same way. Small secure cage, low/no traffic area, dark at night, and it feeds like a champ on geckos from his HAND!! Wont eat frozen thawed mice. But the point is, it EATS and reliably on what it wants. He has no problems keeping it, as long as he keeps and feeds it the way the snake likes LOL!!

As I stated on the milk snake thread---Very cool information about how to get them feeding. I however am not cool with collecting wild snakes for the purpose of selling them.

Joecop, I tend to agree with you. I have heard first hand stories of entire habitats being ripped apart by individuals capturing LA milks. All the bark stripped from dead and live trees, every palmetto where the snakes like to hide under close to the ground shredded up. No offense to the collector on this post, but most collectors treat the collection of wild animals similar to any industry that harvests natural products like trees, oil and gas, minerals, etc. Do whatever it takes to get the commodity in hand and to the market!!! Unfortunately, demand dictates these practices continue.

Well Joe I can always count on those comments made by someone here that like you and the federal regulators that think that snakes are better left alone in the woods, I think breeding albinos should be made an offence. but let me run this by you Joe, I drove 30 miles to my collecting spot and in that distance would you not agree that I had to have drove past hundreds if not thousands on the road sides and nearby woods and feilds, now in the woods I must be walking past hundreds on trail sides and undreground, therefore I am collecting .1%...+ I leave the babies in the woods and don't collect in the same sopt every year, and then theres the fact that very few others work with them or collect as many, I don't think I should not be rediculed, I'm not only collecting and suppling to the enthuesiastic, a "Gem" of the snake world but thru this experience I have also obtained a wealth of husbandry knowledge to aid in the trades quest to propagate this snake, like every other gem in the snake world, don't be so gullable, the small snakes will always be in the unurbanized woods as long as there is food, and folks should be thankfull that there still are people like me out there, other wise there would no gems in homes of people in the snake world. Big snakes however are almost gone in flat florida and if the regulators dont change the laws to let/require breeders in each state to breed at least one speciecs of concern for the sole purpose of repopulation in State parks where their numbers have diminshed to nill,they will be gone in florida south of tampa in ten years, but imagine seeing indigos and EDBs in the parks instead of ferral hogs and armadillos... BTW the first albino scarlet king I find I'mgiong to relocate on an Island in the middle of a swamp in the middle of no where, hows that make you feel joe...JB

Look, Joe wasn't getting nasty with his posts. There are many points, pro and con to all this. BTW, there are TONS of Scarlet king "gems" out there in collections, you certainly aren't the only guy that has made these available to people over the many years. Just keep in mind, you aren't the only guy that has been around the proverbial snake "block" here, this is a fact.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

so you are the one that got the albino from south fla, I know some of your friends here in sarasota

None of those are actually mine, but I know of a couple of these guys that have posted these over the years. I was going to get into some amel elapsoides around 1996 when I talked to a guy at the Orlando Expo that flipped one with a rake as he was doing yard work on his property. I know at least one other one died, and I think there is only one known amel to actually exist now(the bottom photo). I never bought any of his known hets from that breeding, as I had alot of other cool projects at the time, but looking back now, I sure would like to have propagated some of those beauties, and have some now.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Look, I am glad you try to collect from different areas and seem to have some respect for the environment. The fact that you leave babies alone in my opinion is backwards. I would rather you leave breeding size snakes alone so they can make more babies in the wild. The breeders have survived years in the wild to get to that size and probably not many babies make it to adulthood, so I think taking a baby snake does less damage. I am not here to argue, but you are not going to change my opinion on this one. Obiviously habitat destruction does way more harm then collectors but until a contracting firm makes a post about how they are going to kill a bunch of snakes I cannot make a post to them.

Doug,just wanted to say,I know for a fact that the amel elapsoides in the first pic you posted is the same animal that's in the third pic of your post.The color looks different, but it was small in the 1st pic and the lighting of the other pic along with change in pigment and size makes it look as though they are not the same specimen.The 2nd shot in your post,might very well be the same animal also,I'm not sure where this pic surfaced from.Also I'll just say that I agree with you guys here about over collecting.Twenty years ago I used to collect as many as Joe,and still could if I hadn't had a change of heart about this issue.Like anything you do if you spend enough time in the field and know where and just as importantly when to look,finding numbers of them consistantly is not unrealistic.I still come across good #s of them thru the cool months,but don't feel the need to take them anymore.Just because it may be legal to take all you find,doesn't make it morally right!Believe me, I used to be in that same old mindset,but with age I guess I've learned to leave them be except for the occassional oddball that I come across.Now I just find them and snap photos!Personally,with no offence to anyone,I feel showing a pic like that of the pile of scarlet kings might bring negative attention to our hobby,which we defineatly need no more of.All that is shown here is out in the open air,if you know what I mean.Anyways,with age comes wisdom,might we choose to use it.Alan

just these and ratsnakes, and I too have aged and the reason I only collect these is because their dirt common like ratsnakes...so I have quit collecting everything like you but there is absoloutly no reason to pretend that their all going to be collected up by one person. that will never happen, and the pic of the group was taken while I was selling them to three buyers an they wanted to see all that I had, so it was not intended to brag, or show off, but that is the only pic like that out there and it shows contrasting patterns and color. Oh and I leave babies in the woods because nobody wants them, and besides they'll make fine ADs one day, dont be silly...

Doug,just thought I'd say that I know for sure that the first amel elapsoides you posted is indeed the same specimen that is in the 3rd photo.Time/growth along with color change of that animal and the lighting in those shots make it look different.The second pic may very well be the same one also.And I have to say that I agree that sk's or any other herps can be over collected and exploited to the point where a huge dent can be put in the local population.On the other hand you can't catch them all out of good suitable habitat,but as happens all to often they come in with bulldozers and completely destroy entire ecosystems and put in shopping malls,etc...and the few remaining herps get hit on the road grids that now surround the what was once supporting lots of wildlife.Of course we all know this senareo all to well!I used to have the same mindset as Joe,and took large #s of them,but have had a change of heart on this years back.I see it like this,it may be legal to take all that you find,but that doesn't make it morally right!Although I still spend most of my time free time in the field and find more sk's than most,I'd rather photograph them and leave them be or just take an unusual one home randomly.If one knows where,and just as importantly,when to look for them,it is not unrealistic to find them in #s on the right day.And can be done consistantly.I still could certinly take lots of them ,but choose not to.I'm very glad that I see it different than I did years ago. Alan

Yes, I agree with you on these not necessarily being three different animals, I was merely posting some of the pics that were posted by some other's over the past few years here.

Certainly nothing wrong with the rest of what you said about changing your thoughts on a few things as you got a bit older either. We all tend to think differently than we did on many issues as we get older. Certainly not just snake issues either, but just many things in general.

thanks for the insight man!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I grok the timidity thing. I have pyros, which although not as shy as scarlets, are still shy and secretive. I admit I do name all my snakes, but am not trying to anthropomorphize them, its just easier than remembering them by numbers. I, too, am a shy, secretive soul so I can relate to a little timid snake. I was thinking scarlets were hard to keep because people are always complaining the wc little creature wont eat. I guess if the people are inadvertently terrorizing the snake with improper handling and husbandry naturally it wont eat. I thought scarlets had some exotic dietary needs that the average keeper can't easily provide. I for instance often find sharptailed snakes which eat slugs, but finding slugs in the summer is nigh impossible in my area. At least my ringnecks will eat earthworms and crickets, so I have had success with those. I have no plans to keep any scarlets of my own. I don't think this is an animal I would find in my neck of the woods. You certainly have a pretty group in that photo! You must be the Scarlet Whisperer! LOL!

Also, I don't feed ft myself, as it is just too disgusting to me personally. No offense to those who do feed ft, not everyone is able to raise their own mice. I feed live or prekilled once the mice can nip to my pyros and pits.

the Scarlet snake, not scarlet kingsnake. The scarlet snake is another snake I believe is found in Florida, is also a tricolored, but is in a completely different genus than kings or milks (starts with a C, thats all I can remember off top of head). From what i have read on the scarlet snakes, they are VERY specialized feeders and I believe mainly eat lizard and other smaller reptile eggs in the wild. Some claim they take chicken egg from a bowl or egg scented pinks. I treat snakes like that like I treat the mudsnakes I find here in LA. Nice to behold, but bad captives and best left in nature!!!

with a couple different subspecies.

I have seen lots of those get grossly misidentified in the past.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You are right, that is what I thought he had caught!
Cemophora coccinea is what I thought he had. People commonly find these little snakes in their swimming pools and try unsuccessfully to make pets of them.
http://www.uga.edu/srelherp/snakes/cemcoc.htm

AWESOME specimen. scarlets are why alot of people got into snakes they are amazing! are you going to keep it? I have to warn you they are for experienced keepers. Love to get an update.

James Davis

"Advice is golden, knowledge is power"!

read a few more of my post, I think you'll find their in good hands, and I may keep it if no one offers me 300.00, I have an ad in the classifieds that should last till may...

i'm sure they are, but collecting snakes and selling them to make a buck? i dont know, i think i will stick with breeding them instead of depleting natural resources but i know alot of people have different opinions and some good money can be made off of spending a couple of days "harvesting"! Love to see pics of any other WC specimens.

Look for the post titled "Collecting is Good" ... I post alot more on the "Coachwhip forum" and the "Pinesnake forum" and the "Field Collectors forum" oh now it's called the "Field Notes& Observations forum" oh and the "Indigo forum"....

"I post alot more on the "Coachwhip forum" and the "Pinesnake forum" and the "Field Collectors forum" oh now it's called the "Field Notes& Observations forum"

Yeah, I don't guess they would want to call it the "Field Snake Harvesting forum" nowadays, and very understandably so..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com