Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have an adult male thayeri that was brumated for about 15 weeks at 45-55 F. He came through beautifully, and has been active and in good shape for 5 weeks. But two days ago I noticed his mouth not closing properly and heard a tell-tale clicking sound as he breathed (no signs of mouth rot, though). I moved him to a "hospital" tank with the heat cranked up to boost his immune system. He is still active, but the symptoms are about the same. He's a great snake (see picture below) and I don't want to lose him. So, I have a few questions:

1) How common are post brumation URIs?
2) What more, if anything, should I be doing? I did have a knob whose URI cleared up with the warm "hospital tank" treatment.
3) Specifically, is a visit to a herp vet necessary or recommended?

Any advice, experience, or wisdom you can share is greatly appreciated. THANKS!

>>Any advice, experience, or wisdom you can share is greatly appreciated. THANKS!

Here's my advice, experience and wisdom...LOL
I have had a few thayeri get URI and the problem was easily fixed....
You mentioned the "hospital tank" thing.....If that means remove the water bowl and substrate. Install more heat and paper towel substrate then the "hospital tank" will work with thayeri as well.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Putting the snake in a tank or tub with increased heat in definitely the first thing to do, and there isn't a whole lot you can do at home other than that at this point.

As for post brumation URI, here is something I had happen already this year, may be positive for you. I had an alterna that came out of brumation just fine. About 3 days out, she started to develop RI symptoms after seemingly being in perfect health. Rattling, wheezing, even gurgling sounds. A day later, her lower lip swelled and her jaw looked misaligned.

I increased her heat and waited, hoping for the best. She went opaque a day later (about 5 days post brumation), and the symptoms worsened a bit. Started thinking about a vet trip. Her symptoms stayed about the same for 2 more days, then her skin and eyes cleared (not yet shed, but right before), and I thought her symptoms seemed better. The next day, she shed. Every single symptom, including the swelling, was instantly gone. She had clear sounds, no rattling, no swelling, and took a mouse the very same day.

I've never had this happen to me before, but after I posted, I've had several responses of people with similar experiences. It could be a true RI responding to the increased heat -though I'm not sure that I think that's the case-, or it could be the stress of brumation/shedding/increased heat causing issues with the snakes immune system or health in general. Either way, it cleared up almost instantly.

I lean toward the stress issue myself, I think it's too easy to believe that the people that have had this happen, all cleared up an RI with increased heat, we couldn't all have been that lucky. However, I wouldn't bank on this happening with your snake, it's just something to hope and watch for. So, keep doing what you're doing, watch for shedding signs and see what happens. Don't wait too long, if you have a vet near you that can help, don't hesitate to take the snake in. I think Thayeri are a little more resistant to RI than a lot of other species, but they are still nothing to take lightly.

Brian

www.serpenteer.com

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Brian. I really do appreciate it.

The snake is "gaping" off and on today, but there are no gurgling sounds -- but about every second or third breath you can hear a clicking sound. The snake's weight and muscle tone are good, so I think he isn't "too far gone" for the warmth treatment to work. I'm trying to hold out on going to the vet. The cost of one visit is probably more than I paid for the snake!

Tom

Thanks for the advice, John. I do have a question -- what's the rationale for removing the water bowl? I have a clean water bowl with fresh water in the "hospital" tank now. Given that the snake is warmer than usual I would have thought that it would need greater access to clean water. Do you really think it's better to remove it? Sorry to show any doubt, but my name is Thomas, so I guess can't help myself - LOL.

>>Thanks for the advice, John. I do have a question -- what's the rationale for removing the water bowl? I have a clean water bowl with fresh water in the "hospital" tank now. Given that the snake is warmer than usual I would have thought that it would need greater access to clean water. Do you really think it's better to remove it? Sorry to show any doubt, but my name is Thomas, so I guess can't help myself - LOL.

LOL...
I will usually place a shallow water bowl in just to see if the snake needs a drink...Allow to drink, but remove it as soon as the snake is done drinking.....

Spilling a water bowl in the hospital tank will increase the humidity.

My thinking is to "dry up" the RI.......

But.....
Some think RIs are due to dusty conditions.....
I haven't ever witnessed that (Plus I live in a VERY humid region of the nation)....

All the RIs I have seen seem to be contributed to wet/cold conditions that a spilled water bowl during brumation would create. Dry heat seem to cure all the RIs I have encountered in the past....Luckily I did not have a single snake come out of brumation in anything other than prime condition.......I think a lot of it has to do on the condition the snake is in prior to brumation....Fattening up the males and females alike prior to brumation has seemed to prove to be the correct thing to do in my snake room.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

There are definitely two schools of thought here. I agree with John, and err on the side of caution. The snake doesn't need 24/7 access to water, so why take the chance of the increased humidity causing an issue.

In my opinion, which in no way is expert. It depends on the species of snake, as to what could cause or help the RI. Thayeri are not "humid loving" snakes. RIs in them do come mostly from bad conditions, usually wet or dirty cages. I don't think dry, dusty conditions do it. So, the treatment should involve dry conditions.

However, I also keep Green Tree Pyhons and a couple Emerald Tree Boas. Now, here I think that too dry conditions can lead to the RI. And the treatment should involve an increase in humidity and temperature. Again, it depends on the type of snake.

Something to keep in mind that's important. A respiratory infection, is just that, an infection. They aren't necessarily "caused" by the conditions. Your snake can get one when you are doing everything exactly right (the GTP and Emeralds are good examples of this). BUT, the bad conditions lead to your snake being in poor health, and give the environment necessary for whatever causes the RI to be present. Put the two together and you've got a potentially bad situation.

Like John, I've never had a snake come out of brumation in anything but great health. Which is what baffled me with the snake I mentioned earlier, I didn't really think it should have an RI, and it turned out that it didn't. I'm really interested in seeing how your snake does. If it went into brumation in good health, and the conditions during brumation were good. I don't think you're going to have a problem. Hope this helps,

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Brian

www.serpenteer.com

Thanks, Brian. My sick thayeri came out of brumation both fat and happy -- very active, no symptoms of anything wrong. The symptoms first appeared about 5 weeks after he had been brought up from the basement. His cage conditions were standard -- thermal gradient, dry aspen bedding, warm and cool hides, small water bowl, and daily checks to see if any spot cleaning was necessary or if the water had been spilled. The other three thayeri that brumated are all in great condition and symptom free. So I guess the RI is just "one of those things" that pop up whenever you're dealing with animals.

I will post with results of the heat treatment -- into Day 3 and the snake doesn't seem to be gaping anymore. I hope it's on the path to recovery . . .

Below is the snake as a hatchling -- perhaps you can see why I really don't want to lose it!

Tom,

I think you are smart not to run off to the vets. Your assessment and course of action to correct the problem is spot on. Just make sure you give the snake ample opportunity to drink since you cranked up the heat. I've done this before and snakes are pretty darn bullet proof unless of course you just cook them....and I've done that a few times.

Good luck.

Russ