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Dr Mazzotti comments on cold

USARK Mar 23, 2010 01:45 PM

Dr Frank Mazzotti commented on the effects of cold on his study group of Burmese pythons during hearing. He said 9 of the 10 that were being radio tracked in the ENP died from cold exposure.
He also said that industry should not be shut down and said the answer lies in cooperation between the scientific community and industry. USARK made contact with Dr Mazzotti prior to the hearing and is committed to work with him to find solutions to the problems in south Florida. Thank you Dr. Mazzotti for your honesty and integrity. We look forward to working with you.
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USARK

Replies (73)

StephF Mar 23, 2010 02:58 PM

So 10% of his study subjects survived the cold snap? Fascinating.

Hiss_N_Herps Mar 23, 2010 03:14 PM

That is both good news and bad news. I hate to hear when any of these animals die as a result of something that we may have caused, in this case it was exposure to the elements that these animals are not readilly used to. It would be worthwhile to know if the deaths were actually the result of the direct exposure or secondary issues. Will we have to wait for official results of the published paper or did Dr. Mazzotti elaborate on the causes of death to the 9 and the current health of the remaining animal? How many actually died during the cold snap in the frigid temperatures and how many died afterwards as a result of secondary aiments? Has the animal that survived been cleared with a clean bill of health or is it being treated for secondary ailment itself? Not only is this information important for the sake of argument to the point of exposures in our climate, I think that it is in the best interest of the entire herp community to know these results for the future pending outcome of proposed legislation.

Chris

luhrsreptiles Mar 24, 2010 01:26 PM

I asked these same questions in the Freedom of Information Act request I send them last week

amazoa Mar 23, 2010 03:36 PM

Lets thank Shawn Heflic also for his presentation which brought home the fact that the problem is a Florida problem and that study that shows them moving northward is bad science. Thank you Shawn-----Richard
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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

natsamjosh Mar 23, 2010 06:56 PM

While I hate that any animals had to freeze to death, if that cold snap hadn't happened...

brhaco Mar 23, 2010 04:50 PM

Solid info, finally. Now if those SC SREL snakes are not all thoroughly dead, then something fishy is going on.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

StephF Mar 23, 2010 05:22 PM

I disagree.

Annulata Mar 23, 2010 05:37 PM

StephF, you have no idea what your talking about. What make's you disagree? What makes your certain? What background do you have in large constrictors and field herping, especially in their natural range? All you DID is show up here just making conversation and half of which is arguing for the sake of arguing. Do us a favor and go back under the rock where you slid out from. If those Burmese Pythons in SREL didn't DIE from freezing temperatures for over two weeks, then YES something is fishy. If those snakes did survive they were helped. UF did the same thing by leaving Burmese pythons outdoors over the winter and guess what chica? They ALL are DEAD.

StephF Mar 23, 2010 06:17 PM

Lighten up.

I disagree with the assumption that there would be "something fishy" about the possible survival of the pythons at SREL.

Unless you have the gift of clairvoyance you should probably refrain from opining that the SREL pythons are not only merely dead, they're really most sincerely dead.

brhaco Mar 23, 2010 06:20 PM

I'm shocked!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Mar 24, 2010 09:03 AM

>>Dr Frank Mazzotti commented on the effects of cold on his study group of Burmese pythons during hearing. He said 9 of the 10 that were being radio tracked in the ENP died from cold exposure. He also said that industry should not be shut down and said the answer lies in cooperation between the scientific community and industry. USARK made contact with Dr Mazzotti prior to the hearing and is committed to work with him to find solutions to the problems in south Florida. Thank you Dr. Mazzotti for your honesty and integrity. We look forward to working with you. USARK

USARK,

OK, as one member of the “herp community”, I’ll agree to LISTEN to the recommendations but I’ll not agree to ANY compromise until I can read it for myself. I KNOW that deals made in the backrooms and hallways as side-bar agreements to COMPROMISE to reach a CONSENSUS followed by the PROPAGANDA to SELL it, usually results in something that is a reduction in freedom – one brick at a time.

USARK Questions…

1. Why hasn’t ALL of the data been brought to light regarding the purported “problem” of the invasive pythons and boas – specifically the experiment at SREL (and any others that we don’t know about)?

I know that the SREL peer reviewed report is not scheduled for release until June 2010…Well, they’re holding hearings NOW! For this reason and in my opinion, ALL of this legislation should be placed on permanent hold until ALL of the information is presented and evaluated BEFORE the vote. NO compromise, NO vote, NO proposed promulgation of regulations, etc, until the FACTS are ALL presented, examined and verified…We all know (especially you old timers here) that behind the cloak, there is a dagger.

2. When are the representatives of USGS, et al, going to be placed under oath (on camera) before the Natural Resources Committee (with a review of THEIR internal correspondence) to discuss how they came to their conclusion(s) in their purported reports?

3. So in that vein and under the assumption that S.373 and H.R.2811 are toast (which I already know WILL be back in another form as this IS the agenda), what is out there regarding proposals if any?

Going back to my college days, this should be discussed by the scientific method of hypothesis to theory to law, based on facts determined by observation or experimentation or a combination of both and not on agenda driven pseudo-science to achieve a political end…If the facts do not support the hypothesis, then the hypothesis should be discarded until other facts presented lend to its support reappear later…

Sorry for my skepticism here but, they’ve (e.g. politicians, bureaucracies, NGO’s, organizations, et al) have given me great concern regarding trust of anything they propose…

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

USARK Mar 24, 2010 10:20 AM

As far as federal legislation or regulation there is NO COMPROMISE. The government position is fundamentally flawed and need to be scrapped. They are just wrong period!

Cooperation with scientists to reach pragmatic proposals to address real invasive species concerns in south Florida is a completely separate initiative. The Reptile Nation will respond to requests for help to meet challenges because we collectively have more expertise and experience with these animals than all the government scientists put together. In the past we have not been included in discussion on proposals. Now that we have established ourselves and have proved able to flex some political muscle they are now ready to listen. We are agreeing to engage and discuss. Nothing more.

In answer to your questions:

1. SREL is not a government agency. The are part of UGA. Although their study will be completed in June, the paper is not likely to be available till fall. Maybe you could research whether they have used federal funds and could thus be pressured to release info prior to end of public comment on rule making.

2. Congressman Henry Brown of SC roundly criticized USFWS and USGS for not being present at the hearing to answer questions. That is now public record that we can use in our arguments against rule change.

3. There are two proposals that we need to concern ourselves with right now. 1) USFWS Proposed Rule Change 2) Senate version of HR669 (likely to be introduced soon)that will try to establish a risk assessment process along with a "White" list. The guilty until proven innocent approach. It's tragic flaw is that it will likely be complicated and costly. There is no money at USFWS for that kind of proposal unless it includes funding to expand USFWS exponentially.

Skepticism is good. Skepticism is health. Look at all angles. Always question. Thanks Jim!
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USARK

natsamjosh Mar 24, 2010 11:53 AM

>>
>>1. SREL is not a government agency. The are part of UGA. Although their study will be completed in June, the paper is not likely to be available till fall. Maybe you could research whether they have used federal funds and could thus be pressured to release info prior to end of public comment on rule making.
>>

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/midorcas/research/Pythons/SRELPythonProject.pdf

"In Collaboration With:
USGS, National Park Service, University of Florida, and Davidson College"
---

http://www.srel.edu/

"SREL is supported largely by external funding. Major sources include DOE Environmental Management, Savannah River Nuclear Solutions, USGS, US Department of the Army, National Nuclear Security Administration, National Park Service, National Science Foundation, Augusta-Richmond County Consolidated Government, and SERDP."
----
http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/2009/06/28/met_529137.shtml

"The project is a joint effort that also involves the National Park Service, University of Florida and Davidson College."

---
http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/midorcas/research/Pythons/Python.htm

StephF Mar 24, 2010 12:05 PM

http://www.srs.gov/general/about/history1.htm

The Ecological Labs came into being to study the effects of radiation generated by the Savannah River Site, to evaluate the environmental impact.

It is funded primarily by the US Department of Energy and has been since 1951.

natsamjosh Mar 24, 2010 05:23 PM

>>http://www.srs.gov/general/about/history1.htm
>>
>>The Ecological Labs came into being to study the effects of radiation generated by the Savannah River Site, to evaluate the environmental impact.
>>
>>It is funded primarily by the US Department of Energy and has been since 1951.

What is the point of this????? Did you even read what i posted?

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 24, 2010 07:29 PM

Because she understands little about the big picture anyway and reminds me of the Buster Brown or whatever the guy called himself posts...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

StephF Mar 25, 2010 11:16 AM

The big picture (vis-a-vis funding) is that most universities don't pull grant money to fund these studies out of thin air. It typically comes from government sources.

StephF Mar 25, 2010 11:08 AM

I was responding to the statement that SREL is not a government agency.

SREL is government funded, and owes its very existence to the government.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 25, 2010 11:30 AM

I think the American taxpayers are fleeced by many of these funded studies and study sites. It would be much more prudent and postive to buy buffer areas around large protected areas or to buy areas to serve as wildlife corriders than to fund these studies. Im not suggesting all are bad but am suggesting the purchase of protected lands would be a better way to spend money....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

StephF Mar 25, 2010 12:07 PM

To be sure but then the government would likely come under fire for buying the land, owning the land, or some other reason.

Someone always complains.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 26, 2010 09:00 PM

When lg numbers of people are upset because of a proposed action by the government did it not occur to you that their is likely some vald reasons for it? Are you a "rat" who will blindly follow the Pied Piper? I'm not and most of us here are NOT...If you are perhaps you should invest in a life jacket...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

CSRAJim Mar 24, 2010 07:20 PM

USARK,

>>As far as federal legislation or regulation there is NO COMPROMISE. The government position is fundamentally flawed and need to be scrapped. They are just wrong period!

In that regard, if you've not seen this article, it might be of use...No wonder their "peer reviewed" articles are received by such skepticism...As is the IPCC report on Climate Change...They should change the name of "peer" to "paid"...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2490718/pdf/pone.0002931.pdf

>>1. SREL is not a government agency. They are part of UGA. Although their study will be completed in June, the paper is not likely to be available till fall. Maybe you could research whether they have used federal funds and could thus be pressured to release info prior to end of public comment on rule making.

Yes, I know…Finding financial links is proving to be a tough nut to crack…I see references to “partner” and “collaboration” (USGS, FWS, UF, etc) but, cannot find actual documentation of the funding that I KNOW exists when I read these “code words”…

>>2. Congressman Henry Brown of SC roundly criticized USFWS and USGS for not being present at the hearing to answer questions. That is now public record that we can use in our arguments against rule change.

Criticism is one thing but a forensic investigation of records (including correspondence, meeting notes and report information) and individuals under oath and for the record (under penalty of perjury) is what is necessary…

Carter and Clinton both cited the American Antiques Act of 1906 (as Obama has been petitioned to do) to “acquire” 1,000’s of acres of lands…The Non-Traditional Grants (Section 6) of the ESA to “acquire” lands via the FWS regulatory process under the purported “mandate” of preserving endangered species with their “partners” The Nature Conservancy (TNC), The Conservation Fund (CF), etc…There’s a lot going on for sure.

>>3. There are two proposals that we need to concern ourselves with right now. 1) USFWS Proposed Rule Change 2) Senate version of HR669 (likely to be introduced soon) that will try to establish a risk assessment process along with a "White" list. The guilty until proven innocent approach. It's tragic flaw is that it will likely be complicated and costly. There is no money at USFWS for that kind of proposal unless it includes funding to expand USFWS exponentially.

A senate version of H.R.669 is no surprise what so ever (the state versions of S.373 were and remain a challenge)…I wonder who will be the senate sponsor and to which senate committee and/or subcommittee they will shop it to in an attempt to get it to the floor…I do appreciate their tenacity, perseverance and dedication but with millions of tax payer dollars at risk to fund a new or existing program (and associated grant monies to numerous “experts”) and not to mention those lobbying junkets to Washington DC by their NGO partners and stakeholders and to top it off, there are those intergovernmental panels at UNEP, UNDP, etc to appease…Well, it’s lions, tigers, and bears oh my…

>>Skepticism is good. Skepticism is health. Look at all angles. Always question. Thanks Jim!

And thanks back to you…I’m certain that things would be different without a “reserved” voice on the hill so-to-speak…Ha! Ha!

Later,
Jim.

PS: I’ll keep looking but I did find these items of interest though…

Invasive Exotic Animals-4, Invasive Exotic Animals-8, Invasive Exotic Animals-9 and Invasive Exotic Animals-10 from the Joint WG/SCG Meeting, July 15, 2009

http://www.sfrestore.org/wg/wgminutes/2009meetings/15,16jul2009/Invasive_Exotic_Animals_Submissions.pdf

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CSRAJim

natsamjosh Mar 24, 2010 07:29 PM

>>
>>Yes, I know…Finding financial links is proving to be a tough nut to crack…I see references to “partner” and “collaboration” (USGS, FWS, UF, etc) but, cannot find actual documentation of the funding that I KNOW exists when I read these “code words”…
>>

Jim,

I was only able to find specific DOI funding information of SREL for 2008 and earlier. But even the code word "collaboration" means they are using a Federal resource in one way or another.

Thanks,
Ed

CSRAJim Mar 24, 2010 07:43 PM

Ed,

Agreed as I've been researching "stuff" for months now and I know these code words...There are others such as "stakeholder", "policymaker", "decisionmaker", etc...

I'll probably find the information buried in other documents (by accident) as I've found others (while researching something else)...I do know that what ever funding they post, there's always more buried in other agency funds to either support the same activity or duplicate it...It's clear that who ever researches this stuff (CRS, GAO, CBO, etc) for congress is an idiot!

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

natsamjosh Mar 24, 2010 08:06 PM

Jim (and anyone else who's interested),

I just found this:

http://www.srs.gov/general/pubs/ERsum/er09/08erpdfs/srel.pdf

It lists SREL projects and what agency funded the projects for the period Oct. 2007 to Sept. 2008. Given that it was released/published in 2009, I imagine the report covering the period in which the Burmese python experiment was done will not be released for while.

For what it's worth, during the time period covered in the above document, the Dept. of Interior funded about half a dozen projects totalling about $300K, with over $200K going to projects run by Whit Gibbons (who is heading up the Burmese python experiment.)

Thanks,
Ed

CSRAJim Mar 24, 2010 08:51 PM

Ed,

Thanks man but no, that's not what I'm looking for...Most of the stuff in there is part of their "normal" funding for their mission as part of the USG System in coordination with DOE, DOI, etc. They've been working on most of that stuff for years...

The Python study is an addition to what they already do there...

For example, here's this info...

CURRICULUM VITAE, MICHAEL EDWIN DORCAS, December 2009
2008 University of Florida. Thermal Biology of Invasive Burmese Pythons in Everglades National Park. - $19,617
2008 Associated Colleges of the South Faculty Development Grant. Unique opportunities for undergraduate research: Studies of invasive Burmese pythons in Everglades National Park - $4800

2009 Everglades Invasive Species Summit, Everglades National Park, Skip Snow, NPS…

From page 15…”ENP is providing in kind services and partial transportation costs for catching and delivering pythons to Dr. Mike Dorcas for climate tolerance study at SREL in South Carolina”
http://www.evergladescisma.org/summit09/python.pdf

Eradicating Everglades Pythons will be a Formidable Task posted July 20th, 2009, by Bob Janiskee, National Parks Traveler

"How to bring about this sharp reduction in python numbers remains an open question. Scientists and wildlife managers are using and developing a variety of policies, tactics, and strategies. These include:

Using partnerships to develop, implement, and coordinate python control efforts. The National Park Service has already partnered with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the U.S. Geological Survey, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, the South Florida Water Management District, the University of Florida, and the Savannah River Ecology Lab, to name just a few collaborators."
http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/07/eradicating-everglades-pythons-will-be-formidable-task

The stuff I'm looking for is probably contained within some interagency coordination MOU or MOI between the USGS, USFWS, NPS, UF, FWCC, SFWMD, etc...It's out there somewhere in digital space but it's going to be spread out...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

jscrick Mar 24, 2010 08:15 PM

"Criticism is one thing but a forensic investigation of records (including correspondence, meeting notes and report information) and individuals under oath and for the record (under penalty of perjury) is what is necessary…"

This HAS to be done. You are absolutely correct.

Connect the dots...travel records, phone records, emails, financial records...all that behind the scenes stuff...goes to motive, means, and opportunity.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

CSRAJim Mar 24, 2010 09:01 PM

John,

I believe that this is the only way to get to the bottom but, with stories like this one...Well, they'll take a slap on the wrist...I wonder what he had shredded and who told him to do it?

Bordallo Calls for NOAA Law Enforcement Director to Step Aside
March 3, 2010

Washington, D.C. - House Subcommittee on Insular Affairs, Oceans and Wildlife Chairwoman Madeleine Z. Bordallo (D-GU) today, during a hearing of the Subcommittee, called for National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) Office of Law Enforcement Director Dale Jones to be temporarily relieved of his duties, amid allegations of unauthorized document destruction during an ongoing investigation by the U.S. Department of Commerce's Inspector General (IG).

According to the office of Commerce IG Todd J. Zinser, Jones initiated and authorized the destruction of documents and records at the NOAA law enforcement headquarters in Silver Spring, Maryland, while his office was simultaneously under investigation by the IG for allegations of heavy handed, unfair, and poorly managed fisheries law enforcement operations. The document disposal effort was not approved by the IG's office or by his superiors at NOAA.

"As the top cop at NOAA and a long-time investigator himself, Dale Jones must be acutely aware that shredding documents during a federal investigation raises serious questions about his commitment to a full and fair look at all the facts," Bordallo said. "At a time when transparency and accountability in the way our government operates is of utmost importance, this type of behavior cannot be condoned, and Mr. Jones should step aside until the IG's investigation is completed."

Zinser confirmed to the Committee that his investigation of NOAA law enforcement programs was already underway, and his staff had met with Jones to discuss the nature of the review and the processes that would be followed, when Jones allegedly initiated an office-wide paper shredding effort.

http://resourcescommittee.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=617&Itemid=27

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

jscrick Mar 24, 2010 11:45 AM

Well said, Jim. I couldn't agree more.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

jscrick Mar 24, 2010 12:55 PM

One of your points was --- "2. When are the representatives of USGS, et al, going to be placed under oath (on camera) before the Natural Resources Committee (with a review of THEIR internal correspondence) to discuss how they came to their conclusion(s) in their purported reports?"

I can't state emphatically enough how much I agree with this statement. I am sick and tired of the so called "scientists" with their "Reader's Digest" comments.

GET THEM ON THE RECORD! Then we'll see the true conviction of their opinions.

It's just a case of Political Science...when politics charades as science. Ha!

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

luhrsreptiles Mar 24, 2010 01:32 PM

Good comments, I though I was the only one who thinks like that.

USARK Mar 24, 2010 10:59 AM

Please read and comment....
Miami Herald

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USARK

StephF Mar 24, 2010 11:55 AM

" The park lost nine of the 10 radio-tagged snakes, including all eight females, but field surveys for several weeks following the cold snap found higher survival rates -- nearly 60 percent of 99 snakes spotted by his team of researchers were alive.

....

Without expanded efforts to control them, he said, the snakes are likely to rebound in coming years. Only last week, his researchers documented a rare sighting showing that some of the survivors are well enough to engage in the propagation business."

So, the survival rate is even higher than 10%...closer to 60% according to Mazzotti's findings. And the survivors are mating.

Fascinating.

Calparsoni Mar 24, 2010 12:26 PM

You seem to be convinced that these snakes will thrive further north than Florida and from what I gather I from your posts is that you live somewhere in the maryland Virginia area. I may be wrong on that and if I am I apologize.
However if you are you could very easily get some burms and raise them outside and if your assumptions are correct you could prove us wrong. I am sure you could get the burms for cheap or for free and I would be willing to help you design excellent enclosures that can be built cheaply as would several others on here I am sure.
I have based my doubts on the pythons moving much further north on the fact that I have kept multiple species of reptiles outside here in central fl. for 15yrs. Through my successes and failures I have a good idea of what will live and what will not. I am also a professional landscaper and I have a thing for unusual trees from southeast asia. As a result I have a very intimate knowledge of how the climate here works and what I can and cannot get away with as well as climatological trends. There are many others on here with similar experience from here in Fl. some with much more experience than My own. All of them seem to come up with the same conclusion. We would all welcome any actual experience you could personally come up with that could prove us wrong.

StephF Mar 24, 2010 01:18 PM

I'm not *convinced* of anything regarding the snakes. That's the point.

As far as conducting my own 'study' on my property goes, that would be a waste of time, effort, and money, as I live in an area that is outside the projected possible range of the snakes in question.

The flip side to your question is, of course, why folks like yourself aren't conducting studies. You seem to be so sure of the outcome, I would think that you'd jump at the opportunity.

Calparsoni Mar 24, 2010 02:25 PM

In regards to the current laws in Fl. regarding rocs. I have 3 issues with the law. I have personal religious objections to microchips in animals. Without going into details on that as it would involve putting religious debates on here where they have no place. I will just mention I have such objections to microchips and they are as welcome on my private property as ouija boards, tarot cards or regular playing cards for that matter and therefore choose not to keep such animals that require them.
I also have a serious problem with giving up rights afforded to me under the 4th amendment of the U.S. constitution protecting me from unreasonable search and seizure. In order to have an roc permit I must give up this right and allow access to my private property and personal residence at any time the fwc sees fit to come and inspect my cages. I am a private person who lives in a very rural area specifically so I can be left alone as do a lot of my neighbors. This would be the second reason for me choosing not to keep such animals. The third and final reason is that I am opposed to having to shell out $100 a year to keep MY private property. I pay enough friggin taxes as it is. My property tax is almost $2000 a year that is rent for what is supposed to be mine as far as I am concerned. In addition to that they have raised taxes on vehicle registration and drivers licenses. I pay tax on my gas, my food, my clothes and here in fl. they tax our homeownwners insurance and periodically hit us with "surcharges" to help fund their state home owner's insurance fund for rich people who insist on living in shoddily built houses right on the edge of the ocean and want everyone else to help us rebuild everytime a hurricane knocks down their over priced mexican built cardboard box.
It may only be a hundred dollars but it is another hundred dollars to me that could be much better spent on things I actually want rather than for the "privilege of having to allow some bureaucratic busybody access to my house whenever he see fit.
Last but not least as I said I don't need to run an experiment I already know the outcome from what I have already done personally in the last 15 yrs.

jscrick Mar 24, 2010 03:54 PM

"...people who insist on living in shoddily built houses right on the edge of the ocean and want everyone else to help us rebuild everytime a hurricane knocks down their over priced mexican built cardboard box."

That says a lot. I am so opposed to subsidizing others' poor choices.

In the same vein, I'm a little tired of the "we're becoming a socialist country"...and all this "Obama Socialist Agenda".

Guess what? We're ALREADY a Socialist Country! Granted, he may be trying to "make it real", by bypassing the hypocrisy and middle man bloat.

Every time I go to the grocery store there are people in every direction using their Lone Star Cards (state welfare debit cards) and using their WIC chits. Most of these people are actually employed...below the poverty line. Some are legal and some are not. My point being, I subsidize the livelihood of a huge and ever present economy of lower wage workers with my tax dollars. That is back door Socialism. I also support medical...Emergency Rooms quite an inefficient way to go and very expensive, prenatal, delivery, and well baby care, as well as schools and meals,etc. There are a multitude of other religious and NGO charities that help sustain an underpaid sub-culture of trade and unskilled workers here in America.

Established and recognized social programs are such things as: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP program, Workmen's Comp., and Unemployment. No one is seriously considering doing away with any of those that I know of.

And let's not forget the socialistic biases built into our Income Tax Code. New incentives and deductions for the poor to have more babies and to better enjoy the good life being added every year. In turn, leaving us with more lower income citizens to subsidize though our system of redistribution of wealth. Ironically, not called Socialism.

It's not about becoming a Socialist country...It's about making it real, by removing inefficiencies, unnecessary enrichment, fraud, corruption, waste,...and making it real!!!

Hey, I'm not saying I'm for or against these cultural institutions. I just call them like I see them...call a spade a spade...if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Please no more political correctness as we dance around the truth. Time to get real. Way past time, actually.

There are far too many outdated economic models in America today. No longer the 20th Century. Time to step out of the box and change that paradigm.

jsc

-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

StephF Mar 24, 2010 05:02 PM

Gee, how about telling us how you feel?

LOL

brhaco Mar 24, 2010 05:26 PM

That may have been the most thoughtful, rational and clear-minded explication of the current state of affairs I've seen in a while-good on ya!
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 25, 2010 07:01 AM

John, I don't know how I missed this post of yours but that is perhaps the more poignant description of how I feel that I've read yet. CONGRATS and very eloquently written..
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

brhaco Mar 25, 2010 08:12 AM

and to further illustrate your point, I personally have never seen any of the folks hollering about "obamacare" or the "socialist agenda" offer to pull their children out of public school, or refuse to cash their social security checks, or drop out of the medicare system, etc....

I personally have strong libertarian leanings, but I don't see myself doing any of the above, either
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

jscrick Mar 25, 2010 09:01 AM

Thanks guys. Can't tell you how much I appreciate the moderators and all my friends on here for graciously allowing me the leeway to say what's on my mind.

I know I'm in awfully good company. There are some very thoughtful and very intelligent people here.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Jaykis Mar 26, 2010 08:39 PM

There's an argument to be said that any country with a government is socialist in one way or another. And the last time I looked, most of the Scandinavian countries were decent places to live, and were admitted Socialist countries. Beats Communism, anyway...which will never work.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 26, 2010 08:49 PM

Well Jay, Denmark banns ownership of just about any herps except Leopard Gecko's and have strict permitting for those. As Americans we don't need for the government to decide what is the best way for us to live. I KNOW I DON'T AND I DOUBT YOU DO EITHER...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

natsamjosh Mar 24, 2010 01:03 PM

>>" The park lost nine of the 10 radio-tagged snakes, including all eight females, but field surveys for several weeks following the cold snap found higher survival rates -- nearly 60 percent of 99 snakes spotted by his team of researchers were alive.
>>
>>....
>>
>>Without expanded efforts to control them, he said, the snakes are likely to rebound in coming years. Only last week, his researchers documented a rare sighting showing that some of the survivors are well enough to engage in the propagation business."
>>
>>
>>So, the survival rate is even higher than 10%...closer to 60% according to Mazzotti's findings. And the survivors are mating.
>>
>>
>>Fascinating.

Not really. Without more info, it's meaningless. What would the survival rate be if you factor in the virtual certainty that a large percentage of dead pythons were eaten by scavengers? Then on top of that, factor in how many survivors have a terminal ri.

AMaceW Mar 25, 2010 09:14 PM

I agree, some of them could be seriously ill, but still considered a "survivor" as far as the study goes..

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 24, 2010 07:43 PM

It's NOT as fascinating as you think as IT'S MUCH HARDER TO FIND DEAD BURMS THAN LIVE ONES. That is a huge flaw as the snakes I guarantee buried and hid under anything and everything to try to escape the killing temps while live ones warmed up are out and about. The percentage of dead could be MUCH HIGHER and no way to know exactly how many. I can assure you that the percentage based on what was found was highly in favor of live ones. I thought the testimony over all was better but still comparing found dead snakes to found live ones and using that as an accurate percentage to go by is fatally flawed. I'M A FIELD HERPER NOW AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AND ANY FIELD HERPER KNOWS THIS...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

natsamjosh Mar 24, 2010 08:15 PM

>>It's NOT as fascinating as you think as IT'S MUCH HARDER TO FIND DEAD BURMS THAN LIVE ONES. That is a huge flaw as the snakes I guarantee buried and hid under anything and everything to try to escape the killing temps while live ones warmed up are out and about. The percentage of dead could be MUCH HIGHER and no way to know exactly how many. I can assure you that the percentage based on what was found was highly in favor of live ones. I thought the testimony over all was better but still comparing found dead snakes to found live ones and using that as an accurate percentage to go by is fatally flawed. I'M A FIELD HERPER NOW AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AND ANY FIELD HERPER KNOWS THIS...
>>-----

Tom,

The really sad thing is that one doesn't even need to be an experienced field herper to see the flaw in the logic. All you need is:
a) honesty, and
b) half of a brain.

I don't know what Steph's agenda is, other than intentionally trying to waste the time of forum members.

Thanks,
Ed

CSRAJim Mar 24, 2010 08:24 PM

Tom,

Field herping? What a concept for science. Consider the following man...

http://www.sfrestore.org/wg/wgminutes/2009meetings/15,16jul2009/Invasive_Exotic_Animals_Submissions.pdf

Invasive Exotic Animals-4, Joint WG/SCG Meeting, July 15, 2009, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Actions.

1. Constrictor Snake Risk Assessment.

"...The work, which is being completed by the U.S. Geologic Survey (USGS), will: 1) conduct comprehensive literature reviews to compile available information for each species individually...2) delineate localities that have climate similar to the native-range specimen records and available climate data from sources such as the World Climate online database, 3) use published habitat information to estimate which U.S. habitats are potentially inhabitable by each species..."

There's LOTS of field work in that USGS "Assessment"...

Looks like Pyron read something else...I guess he didn't have access to the World Climate online database or the IPCC Climate Change information at Fort Collins...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2490718/pdf/pone.0002931.pdf

Later,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

Katrina Mar 26, 2010 03:43 PM

So could this also mean that, if there's likely to be a much larger number of dead burms out there, and seeing as they're so hard to find live ones any way, the population is larger than has bee reported?

I'm just playing the devil's adocate speculation game as much as anyone else here.

I do believe that most of the live non-native reptiles will succumb to respiratory infections and other illnesses in the next 1-6 months. We all know it can take a reptile weeks or months to die from some infections, and as they move slower, they might be seen in greater numbers in the next few weeks/months before the sightings drastically decrease as they die off. All guessing games, but I'm guessing that most either died or will succumb in the next handful of months.

Katrina

>>It's NOT as fascinating as you think as IT'S MUCH HARDER TO FIND DEAD BURMS THAN LIVE ONES. That is a huge flaw as the snakes I guarantee buried and hid under anything and everything to try to escape the killing temps while live ones warmed up are out and about. The percentage of dead could be MUCH HIGHER and no way to know exactly how many. I can assure you that the percentage based on what was found was highly in favor of live ones. I thought the testimony over all was better but still comparing found dead snakes to found live ones and using that as an accurate percentage to go by is fatally flawed. I'M A FIELD HERPER NOW AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AND ANY FIELD HERPER KNOWS THIS...
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 26, 2010 09:04 PM

The bottom line is NO ONE KNOWS AND THAT INCLUDES THE FOLKS GIVING STATISTICS...I know I don't know...All of it is speculative but if you compare them to other readily seen herps like Iguanas it's clear that most of the population was killed...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Calparsoni Mar 24, 2010 11:57 AM

It seems to me that when I bred burms I made the mistake only once of having more than one male in with a female that was coming into season. The result was impressive in one sense and a little spooky in another. While it is true that I did not leave them in together at the time I was pretty convinced that if I did the outcome would not have been very pretty, I don't think the end result would have been a mating ball. perhaps someone who has done more burm breeding than me could elaborate as I only bred them a handful of times and never kept multiple males together after that wrestling match.

jscrick Mar 24, 2010 12:22 PM

Here are two criticisms of the article that jump out ---

"...intensive eradication efforts." I take issue with this statement it is subjective and a term of relevant comparison...comparison to what?

"...nearly 60 percent of 99 snakes spotted by his team of researchers were alive." Who's to say some snakes weren't counted more than once [inadvertently, of course], thus falsely increasing total numbers of live snakes?

"On a tree island a mile from the Pahayokee boardwalk, Mike Rochford and two other team members discovered a 15-foot-plus female, one of the largest captured in the park, and three males entwined in a pulsing ``mating ball.'' The biological details are best left at, ``What happens in Pahayokee, stays in Pahayokee"."
--- This is in fact probably one of the most efficient and cost effective methods of control and eradication to use. Bait female Pythons are in fact currently being used for that purpose. Why then put such a sinister spin on what is in fact a viable remedy?

jsc

-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

boaphile Mar 24, 2010 01:37 PM

"...nearly 60 percent of 99 snakes spotted by his team of researchers were alive."

Of what significance is this exactly? The vast majority of dead animals would have been eaten by other animals. So the fact that of 99 Burmese Pythons spotted that 60 of them were dead is mind boggling! Imagine how many others had to have died for there to be 60 dead animals just laying around!

Plus something else known to people who have knowledge about Pythons. Simply being "alive" in no way means that the animal is not going to die as a result of the cold weather. These animals originate from the South East Asian Rain Forest. This does not occur there, and these animals are continuing to die in large numbers after contracting respiratory illnesses after this little cold snap.

What is really going to be interesting is how difficult will it be to find live Burmese Pythons in the Glades this summer. Most likely very few. The march that the USGS government contracted scientists, Gordon Rodda and Robert Reed made about Burmese going all the way to Washington DC is now abundantly laughable. Laughable if it weren’t for the fact that the ridiculous claims they made weren’t obviously ideologically driven. I'm sure Burms that survived the cold in the Glades have already ordered their snow shoes and parkas from Amazon.com to deal with the winter weather they cannot survive.
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

jscrick Mar 24, 2010 01:48 PM

"I'm sure Burms that survived the cold in the Glades have already ordered their snow shoes and parkas from Amazon.com to deal with the winter weather they cannot survive."

You got that right. Better order XXXLg, too. I here they get pretty big. lol

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

USARK Mar 24, 2010 12:50 PM

7. INVASIVE SPECIES: Republicans rail against exotic snake restrictions (03/24/2010)
Email this StoryPrint this StoryPatrick Reis, E&E reporter
With an 18-foot skin laid out before them, Obama administration officials defended the need for more regulations on foreign pythons to skeptical House Republicans.

The Interior Department is proposing to classify nine large snake species as "injurious" under the Lacey Act, a designation that would prohibit their import and transportation across state lines.

The designation is intended to prevent future snake outbreaks like the one currently gripping the Florida Everglades, where escaped Burmese pythons have created a self-sustaining population numbering in the tens of thousands.

The pythons threaten Florida's ecosystem and could move north as climate change warms the southeastern United States, Bert Frost, the National Park Service's associate director of natural resources, stewardship and science, told members of the House Natural Resources Committee yesterday. The snakes are already swallowing up rare species such as the Key Largo wood rat, the blue heron and the wood stork.

An American alligator and a Burmese python locked in a struggle to prevail in Everglades National Park. This python appears to be losing, but snakes in similar situations have apparently escaped unharmed, and in other situations pythons have eaten alligators. Photo by Lori Oberhofer. Courtesy of the National Park Service.

"These invasive large constrictor snakes are highly adaptable to new environments and opportunistic in expanding their native range," Frost said while sitting behind a massive python skin brought to the hearing by an official from the South Florida Water Management District.

Republicans Rob Bishop of Utah and Henry Brown of South Carolina protested the proposed trade restrictions would curtail personal freedoms, devastate the pet industry and do nothing to combat the population of snakes already in the Everglades.

"How is putting thousands of Americans out of work and destroying thousands of small businesses going to eradicate Burmese pythons in South Florida?" Brown said.

The designation could even exacerbate the current infestation by pushing breeders whose snakes have lost their economic value to release them into the wild, said Shawn Heflick, a herpetologist from Florida.

To address the current infestation, the service is experimenting with snake traps, pet owner education programs and even thermal scans that would allow researchers to detect the cold-blooded creatures through differences in temperature with the ecosystem around them.

The administration is also exploring ways to prevent invasive populations from becoming established, Frost told the committee. Under the current system, regulation of invasive species is reactive, and even then, the process of restricting further imports can take years, he said. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is working to develop a multi-stakeholder group to rapidly evaluate the risk of species before they are imported.

To deal with snakes in the Everglades, Bishop proposed opening the park to hunters. Hunting is allowed in the Big Cypress National Preserve to the park's north, but only agents under federal contract are allowed to take snakes in the park.

Frost said using agents in the Everglades National Park has led to the capture of more than 100 pythons, while private hunting programs have caught fewer than five. Frost said private hunters had caught fewer snakes because pythons are rarely their primary target.

Bishop countered that hunters are hampered by regulations prohibiting them from using guns and restrictions on the vehicles needed to take them deep into the wetlands where the pythons are found.

"We have a land-use policy, and we have a problem, and the two don't meet," Bishop said.
E & E Daily

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USARK

jscrick Mar 24, 2010 01:14 PM

"The snakes are already swallowing up rare species such as the Key Largo wood rat, the blue heron and the wood stork."
--- Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Blue Herons possibly be feeding on baby Pythons? Wood Storks are primarily threatened by loss of optimum feeding habitat. We already know the the Wood Rat is a Straw man.

""These invasive large constrictor snakes are highly adaptable to new environments and opportunistic in expanding their native range," Frost said while sitting behind a massive python skin brought to the hearing by an official from the South Florida Water Management District."
--- Says who? The South Florida Water Management District? Don't make me laugh. Who knows where he got that quote. How much did they stretch that "massive" python skin, anyway?

jsc

-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

boaphile Mar 24, 2010 05:43 PM

These morons act like Alligators and the millions of other predators in the Glades do not eat those animals. It's unfortunate that those Burms are there to stay, but the Burms have become just another predator that dines on... yes, that endangered rat. Exactly the same as the other predators that are there to keep the balance of predator to prey ratio. Is digested Key Largo Wood Rat, turned into Alligator poop somehow better for the Everglades than the exact same digested Key Largo Rat in the form of Burm Poop? I think not.
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

jscrick Mar 24, 2010 08:32 PM

Right Jeff, Seems like some of these "authorities" didn't do too well in Ecology 101, if they ever even took it.

They seem so focused on the "problem", they can't see the forest for the trees. It is simply a case of preformed opinion/prejudice shading true objective investigation and science.

The simple fact is, they are incensed that the brutish pythons have moved into their pristine Everglades. Another simple fact is, the Everglades hasn't been pristine in their lifetimes and never will be again.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

CSRAJim Mar 24, 2010 09:11 PM

Jeff & John,

Not to mention those nice pristine "housing projects" that they've built to accommodate the northern "snow bird retirees" and drained the surrounding wetlands or dredged canals...

Have you compared any of the aerial photos of the area surrounding the ENP from the 1980's to now? It's a sight to see...The local wildlife has much more to fear and is more threatened from the other "invasive species" with white socks and bermuda shorts.

On the bright side, they've created "eco-jobs" for the critter getters that arrive to remove the gators and snakes from their pools...

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

Calparsoni Mar 25, 2010 09:12 AM

If you ask me (of course they wouldn't lol) that stupid rat is a poster child for animals that lost darwin's lotto. It only has 2 or 3 babies once or twice a year. That doesn't sound like a very good reproductive strategy for something on the bottom of the food chain. If they want to save their stupid rat they should make pets out of them because burms or no burms they are going to die off sooner or later.

StephF Mar 24, 2010 01:23 PM

Sure: I simply clicked on the link provided by USARK to the Miami Herald article and read it.

StephF Mar 25, 2010 04:14 PM

Read the article again:

"The park lost nine of the 10 radio-tagged snakes, including all eight females, but field surveys for several weeks following the cold snap found higher survival rates -- nearly 60 percent of 99 snakes spotted by his team of researchers were alive."

There were only 10 radio tracked snakes. Do you really thing that 10 snakes is an adequate sampling from which to extrapolate overall survival rates?

At this point there are NO OFFICIAL results, so we all have to go on what is merely anecdotal at this point. The information is what it is.

The larger the sampling, the more accurate the results. My guess is somewhere between 10 and 60 percent survival rate.

Cheers.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 25, 2010 05:19 PM

Yes and by their and your words that's a 90% mortality NOT 60% as they suggested based on a hunt in the wild looking for dead or live snakes. That's where the 60% came from and is fataly flawed as I and others have pointed out. THE ONLY FACTUAL FIGURES ARE ON THE KNOWN # OF TAGGED SNAKES AND THAT SHOWS A 90% MORTALITY RATE. THE OTHER FIGURES MEAN LITTLE TO NOTHING.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

StephF Mar 25, 2010 06:45 PM

No need to shout. I get your point, I just think that it's not a reliable figure either, due to sample size. What is of interest is the opinion of Mazzotti.
Really there aren't enough details available for anyone not involved with the study to reasonably conclude anything at this point.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Mar 25, 2010 07:58 PM

Including the people studying them in terms of survival percentages...thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

jscrick Mar 25, 2010 08:01 PM

Yeah, Steph. There has been considerable discussion on the REPORTED numbers in that article. I think some were saying they might have been misquoted and stuff taken out of context, etc. Think they are backing away from those numbers somewhat.
Could be all wrong. That's just the sense I get from all this.
I'm entitled to be wrong, just like anyone else. I'm only human.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

luhrsreptiles Mar 25, 2010 10:28 PM

Cliff
I sent a freedom of information act request to SREL last week and they only have 10 day to respond. I made it simple and to the point. I did the same thing to California Fish & Game but it wasn't simple. Some of the documents I asked for went back to 1980.
Michael Luhrs

CSRAJim Mar 26, 2010 08:19 PM

Michael,

Thanks man...I'm looking forward to reading your post...When and if it ever arrives...

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

USARK Mar 28, 2010 08:15 AM

A FOIA request is not as simple as one might think. You have to be very exacting as to what you are asking for or you will not get it. For someone who is not familiar with the process the likelyhood of getting no results is high. Also, if you are successful it can be quite expensive as you will be charged per page for the reults. It could potentially cost thousands of $. A non-profit org can request a fee waiver. I encourage anyone that is serious about making a FOIA request to research the process and consider hiring an attorney familiar with FOIA to write the formal request.
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USARK

luhrsreptiles Mar 28, 2010 02:53 PM

First thing you need to know is that I’m 63 years old and been around the block a few times. I’ve been in the reptile business for more than 40 years and elected to public office twice. I’ve done FOI requests more than 30 times. I’ve sued Government Agencies a number of times including California Department of Fish & Game back in the 70’s all the way to the State Supreme Court. So while I understand what your saying you shouldn’t try to hold people back, you should be trying to help them. Only when people get involved do they really understand how our government works. You can’t be the only one working at this.
Michael Luhrs

USARK Mar 29, 2010 07:48 AM

Not trying to hold anyone back. Just educating them on how to successfully navigate the bureaucratic maze.
-----
USARK

CSRAJim Mar 26, 2010 08:16 PM

Cliff,

What I’m looking for doesn’t have a limit. I’m looking for any and all taxpayer funds whether it’s actual funds or in kind…This is not an IRS issue, it’s about accountability and disclosure. I cannot tell you how prevalent the practice of duplicity and overlap of effort exists within the Departments of the executive branch…Pick one. For example, the Brown Tree Snake…This “invasive species” issue is funded by agencies of Interior and Defense among others over the years…

For example, within the Non-Traditional Grants of the ESA, virtually EVERY department of the federal government (DOI, DOE, DOD, DOC, DOA, etc) is involved in this to comply with the ESA (as the regulation is promulgated). Therefore, what we read in the press announcements from each agency is NOT accurate…It’s much more but you have to read each appropriation bill from each department to find them. Also, there are the requirements for each state (our state taxes) as well…It’s far more costly to us, the taxpayers, than we are privy to by the press…The question is why? Why make the "true" cost of all of this stuff sooooo difficult to find? You already know the answer...

In other words, what we see is only the tip of the iceberg as most of the federal departments have duplicating efforts within their own appropriation requests to congress…Therefore, when the CBO says they met the bill complies with the unfunded mandate requirement, this is just a technicality of word parsing…

This is why I’m interested in reading the numbers…

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

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