Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My female MBK shed 2 weeks after brumation so I introduced her to my male MBK. He immediately chases her, bites her and tries to copulate with her but she just coils up flipping her tail around until he gives up. She is going into shed again now so could it be after her second shed that she'll be ready? Sorry if this sounds stupid but its my first time breeding Kings.

Yes, when she ovulates, and her egg follicles are ready to be fertilized, she will calm down and begin to be more receptive to the male's advances. It could even take until the shed AFTER this coming one, it just all depends. Just keep reintroducing them every week or so until she cooperates, because she will eventually if she is mature enough, and of proper size and weight. There is no real "magic" time when this always happens, as they are all individuals.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks for the advice. The female is 48 in. with good weight on her , the male is 51 in. with good weight. Since I started introducing them the male stopped eating. I've read this is normal. Again, thanks a lot Doug for the advice. Steve.

it is not normal for my kingsnakes because i keep them together year round except when the female is laying.

Next year introduce them during winter brumation so they can bond together. this way the male and female will recognize each other and not freak out.

I ave also found that most times a kingsnakes cannibalize is when they are put togther for the first time during breeding season. In the wild they know each other otherwise their would be no kingsnakes.

The bonding process takes place in the wild as kingsnakes do know each other throughout their lives and congregate.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I've introduced them several times a month (supervised) since they were young. I'll probably try that next year. I just get nervous leaving them together. I know a lot of people keep them together,I guess I'm just a worry wort! Thanks Rainer. Steve

Well if it makes you feel any better. i keep literally hundreds of adult kings together. Have been doing so for many years. i could never "keep my eye" on them. They are just fine and never eat each other once they reach sexual maturity. I also never have a problem feeding them and them eating each other 9I just toss the food in and leave the room) and I never see a male or females frantically trying to escape the mates precense.

i actually belive this type of "hyped up" activity can trigger a feeding response from a potential mate. I can't explain except to say i would be nervous to and keep an eye on them if they have not been kept in groups.

Anotgher thing about keeping them together. You can still miss the ovulation period of the female. Sure she can still be crazy jitterish when placed into a cage with a snake that could make her a meal. So how do you know when the time is right? Could be you are remoiving s scared snake that could be ready for fertilization.

I don't know what else to say. Keeping them in groups makes it all so simple and full-proof. I would suggest for anyone trying to breed, to put the kings together right before brumation. then leave them until the female is ready to lay. After she lays feed her 5 or 6 rodents and then throw the male back in with her for a second clutch..
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Thanks. I'll try that next year. I've been alternating cage introductions every other day with the same results. Male smells her, starts twitching, climbs on her, bites her on the back and tries copulating. She coils up and flips her tail violently.

I've been alternating cage introductions every other day with the same results. Male smells her, starts twitching, climbs on her, bites her on the back and tries copulating. She coils up and flips her tail violently.

If the male is going after her to copulate leave them together.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Even if she's going into shed right now? The male finally ate two mice after I posted that he stopped eating (earlier today).I tried a third mouse but he refused it. Would it still be O.K. to put them together a few hours after he ate? I hate to be a pain asking all of these questions but I'm sure most people are the same way with their first time breeding kings.

A good time would be AFTER he ate , LOL!

Yes you can throw him in with her. This might be a good time to let them bond. By tommorow morning everything will be peachy.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Thanks Rainer. He's bit her so many times I was wondering if thats going to mess up her shed. Again, many thanks. Steve

Wouldn't it make good sense to put them back together AFTER she sheds??

See, stop and think about this for a moment. Since they WERE NOT kept together before while in brumation this season, just throwing them together now overnight and hoping for the best(as suggested) til tomorrow would brobably be a huge mistake. Especially while she is already "hell-bent" against him breeding with her, along with her adamant tail-slapping and bucking,and with all the biting from the male to convince her otherwise that obviously isn't working yet. This is not so smart in my opinion. Just wait til she sheds then reintroduce.

Unless of course you don't mind the possibility of one of them getting killed that is!!. The chance doesn't have to be taken is my entire point here!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

See, stop and think about this for a moment. Since they WERE NOT kept together before while in brumation this season, just throwing them together now overnight and hoping for the best(as suggested) til tomorrow would brobably be a huge mistake.

Doug

I use this method all th time for new introced males into female cages. Since i sometimes use one male on 3 or more femaleds i switch them. I wait until the female is in shed to introduce the male. this accomplished several things:

1) the male will be there at the right time during ovulation.

2) For some reason a "in blue" female seems less palatiple or interesting to a newely intruced male. This allows for some what of a bonding process to avoid the typical jitters a female gets when a male is introduced (see #3).

3)The female is less likey to squirm about and panick triggering a feeding response to it newly introduced male mate.

Again don't ask me why this is. just my observations from working with a large collection of snake eaters. i don't have snake eating accidents so i guess I just have a green thumb..., or scaled one. Whatever
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Rainer,...

I guess some of that could be possible, and it seems to work pretty good for you I guess, but I just get the "willies" when you tell everyone to simply throw their kings together without also adding in all of the conditions and extra details that you might take for granted when you do it. Without knowing all about the other person's king husbandry, I don't think I would feel comfortable about advising this to just everyone though.

Again, not saying it doesn't seem to work okay for you, I just don't know about recommending the same practice for everyone.

Sort of like what I might do with a power saw. I have done things with saws that would cut off most other non-carpenter people's fingers and hands off(or even worse)..LOL! I do it, because I know exactly what I'm doing, but I certainly wouldn't recommend that someone off the street hold the saw upside down with the blade guard wedged open with a shim while pulling the saw towards their face like I have done before for certain cuts..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Rainer,...

Sort of like what I might do with a power saw. I have done things with saws that would cut off most other non-carpenter people's fingers and hands off(or even worse)..LOL! I do it, because I know exactly what I'm doing, but I certainly wouldn't recommend that someone off the street hold the saw upside down with the blade guard wedged open with a shim while pulling the saw towards their face like I have done before for certain cuts..

I guss you are right. i would think it has to do with a smidgen of common sense. For instance, is it worth mentioning not to throw two starving snakes together? Would you put two starving dogs togther that hav'nt eaten in 10-15 days?.. or any starving animals together of the same species? Frogs, lizards? How about a group pitbull and cats??, heck even humans will canniblize if there is no other resourses. But i don't think anyone wants to eat their spouse. Well maybe they do

Also there is the scent of a freshly killed mouse smell on a snake that has just eaten and then introduced into a hungry snakes cage. Should have one of thoese maufacturer signs on them saying ^^ DANGER***WARNING** all over it. Kind like gun manufacturers started putting labels on thei guns which say ;;

Maybe we should tattoo all of our snakes with a warning too.

all these things considered, I guess you would have to work pretty hard at to get one to eat another. Just like shooting yourself in the face with a gun. But I guess nowadays we need to tell people everything NOT to do. Which is plain obvious to some.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Does a person have to be "STARVING" to open their refridgerator looking for something to eat??

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Human beings do a lot of things animals would never do.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

"Human beings do a lot of things animals would never do"

And animals do a lot of things human beings would never do. When is the last time you saw a human being crap in their own glass of water?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Don't ask...I work with crazy people.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

"Don't ask...I work with crazy people"

LOL!,....yeah,....I guess that is really my point here......"stuff" happens, and there are never any absolutes in this world.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

100% OT; is that your Ruger, and if so how's it working for you? I'm wanting to pick up a blackhawk in .44 mag at some point but I'm looking for people that have owned/used ruger revolvers to see what they have to say.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

I am a S%W guy but the Ruger revolvers are great! I love the Sp-101. built like tanks and can take a stady diet of full load .357's. S&W has them beat on the triggers though. Getting the internals polished out and changing the springs by a gunsmith solves that.

S&W M13 w/3" bareel and cutomized:

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I like SW but they charge a damn arm and a leg for most of their revolvers. Like the one's I've shot but not enough to shell out a grand. I've had pretty good luck with Taurus so far, and they're 1/3-1/2 the cost...but Ruger's ain't bad either.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

DON"T get a taurus. Get a Ruger or S&W. i will email you a good site for S&W revolvers. Get the pre lock ones only. they will go up in price as well. Like money in the bank.

S&W 3" M66

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Sorry for creating a long thread with a few disagreements. Like I said yesterday, the male ate 2 mice. Before the female started to go into shed she ate 10 small mice in 7 days. She used to be a finnicky eater before brumation (her first). The male on the other hand, used to try to eat ME even though I would stuff him like a sausage. Since his brumation (first also) he has settled down and does not try to eat me at all, which is a very good thing. He used to fly at the top of the cage when I opened it, I'd take him out and be holding him,then he'd latch onto me. Good times! I kind of think I started that behavior because when he was a baby I would hold him while I fed him.

No problem here. Glad to hear things are going well. The subject has come up on many occassions, just asking relevant questions regarding the thinking behind keeping pairs and bonding etc.

It started with: "no disrespect and not wishing to start up the whole Keep them/not keep them together deal." followed by some questions. Perhaps the late hour and other things contributed to it going south.

Thanks Bob. Steve

no disrespect and not wishing to start up the whole Keep them/not keep them together deal.

"In the wild they know each other otherwise their would be no kingsnakes."

That same logic would apply that males would of course not eat their own eggs because.. "In the wild they know each other otherwise their would be no kingsnakes."

So by the same logic wouldn't it run contrary to that thinking to remove the males?

And if it's for safety reasons so they don't eat the eggs why would folks who don't want to take the chance with their prized/expensive snakes being kept together be faulted with eye rolling when they express concerns that are very similar? (not wanting their adult eaten VS eggs)

This always seems to hit me head on when I see these types of posts.

Thanks,
Bob.

This always seems to hit me head on when I see these types of posts.

Has it hit you on the head that females in nature search for logs or other areas to nest and lay their eggs/

Has it hit you on the head since we cannot provide that in captivity. Thaerfoire we must take extra precautions during the egg laying process.

Do i really need to explain all this?

Go ahead do what you will with your kingsnakes. it is no concern to me. i just work with thousands of kingsnakes every year and thought i would mention that folks are way out in left field thinking their snakes are gonna eat each other.Why do i bother?.. because i work all day around them year in and year out. I supoort myself and my family. Then i take a few minutes from working in teh snakeroom and come to the computer and read this. I just have to comment. Sorry.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Thanks for everything Rainer. By the way I put them together after your last post and he did NOTHING! I left them together for about 45 minutes and he just flicked his tongue at her and she did the same. I did separate them though because I've raised them both since they were about 12" long and after talking to a few breeders, no one has any adult or sub adult females they want to sell. I just don't want to risk 2 years of raising snakes for a bad outcome. I don't mind introductions while I'm supervising but I don't want to wake up tomorrow and see all of my efforts wasted. I didn't mean to start any disagreements so if I did I'm sorry. Steve.

Whoa, Whoa Bluerosy.. You took this as an attack. Not what I was trying to do.

I was dicussing a line of thinking. I think you are misunderstanding me. I do keep my snakes as I wish and give you the right to as you see fit. I also posted some of my Pyros that are kept year round hopefully to have expressed to you that I know it can be done I just don't choose to do it with others.

We are discussing a line of thought that says in nature they do this and that..

Devils advocate forces you to think it through to it's conclusion.

Hopefully I can be clearer.

The "keep them together" crowd thinking is, if I'm understanding it right is..

In nature, Kings live in harmonious colonnies where everyone knows each other and they don't eat from their tribe,or see them as food, otherwise "there would be no kingsnakes" some have expressed this is a common sense approach and use it as a model to keeping them that way in a cage.

In nature, Kings live in harmonious colonies where eveeryone
knows each other and they don't eat eggs from their tribe, or see them as food, otherwise "there would be no kingsnakes"

A laying box in a cage is a simulation of the log in nature that a wild male could access too and eat or not eat eggs of his own colony.If in the wild they are not eaten by the same thinking why would removal of the males be neccesarry? Wouldn't you think the same tribal bond or principle is the same?

And if it isn't and it's deemed not safe to keep the male in the cage, why are folks who prefer not to risk keeping pairs together faulted.It's a similar concern. An advocate of single keeping could say it's a cage and there is no place for the other snake to retreat to in times of tension like it could in the wild?

I hope this is a little clearer?

I think these are logic questions and that's what the forum is for. This was not a personal attack.

Bob.

In nature, Kings live in harmonious colonies where eveeryone
knows each other and they don't eat eggs from their tribe, or see them as food, otherwise "there would be no kingsnakes"

okay since you keep mtn kings lets use them as an example.

In the wild Mtn Kings live in colonies. they share rock outcroppings or use large granite areas where they are fossorial most of the year.

When female is gravid she moves away (travels) from the rock, granite, etc to the woods nearby. this is usually a dense forest with of trees and darkness, with not a lot of food or temperature choices (ie not in direct sunlight)that is not ideal for their survival. There she seeks a log or rotten stump (pulp) to lay her eggs. Then she returns to the original outcropping with the colony. the males don't venture like this because they have no reason to. OIn the mtn king case the eggs are never in contact or proximity with the male. So it makes sense to remove the female during the egg laying process. Also NESTUING has been a subject here where the female will have less chance to get eggbound if she is given something more adequate than a small box with moss in it. But that is another topic.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Can you say with certainty that the males never extend their hunting range to the nearby woods? In times of hunger isn't it concievable they are there looking for eggs of other types of snakes and gravid females of other species to eat or other type of prey favoring those same conditions?. Not having ever observed Pyros in the wild, I don't know but that does not keep me from trying to think these things through.

Also if baby snakes start coming from "somewhere else" doesn't that put them at eating risk as outsiders to the colony where everybody knows each other?

I think these are logical questions.

Can you say with certainty that the males never extend their hunting range to the nearby woods? In times of hunger isn't it concievable they are there looking for eggs of other types of snakes and gravid females of other species to eat or other type of prey favoring those same conditions?. Not having ever observed Pyros in the wild, I don't know but that does not keep me from trying to think these things through.

So what would they be "hunting" if the food, humidity and temps are right there. In a case of a male wandering off I would think it would be to find more mates.

I have found Calif zonata on the egde of rock habitat but never than a few yards away and never in the deep woods unless there was an area with rock or open sunshine.

Here is an example of deep woods. I have never found any zonata here:

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

So you feel that after hundreds and hundreds of years of surviving in the wild and beng "smart" enough to recognize tribe mates both young and old, big and little, They are not "smart" enough to recognize their own colonies egg caches?

I don't know the answers but bantering these things about seems to be the right way to figure things out. Different people have different parts of the puzzle I guess.

I have had snakes That I have thought were very sly or savy and I have owned others that I'm sure wouldn't have lasted a week in the wild.
Hard to judge snake smarts sometimes.

Your questions are very valid, Bob. I certainly don't have the answers, but I can offer some observations.

1. When I kept Cal kings, I kept two males and two females in a big plywood box over Winter. One male and one female (the oldest ones) clearly paired off during that time and stayed togther much of the time. Come Spring, she was always gravid, and the two could stay together all year with no incident. Anyway, neat to see that kind of interaction. I know not the wild, but I'm certain that selection of mates can and does go on in some cases well before breeding season, probably more with established adults.

2. There is a field near me that has Cal kings. A friend of mine had the great idea of sketching head patterns of ones he found under boards. Amazingly, the same male kept reappearing under boards over years, and smack in the vicinity of some females and even an occasional youngsters. Although I cannot tell you what is going on below the surface, clearly it isn't an all out war for Cal kings as food (as long as food is available I suppose). His study would have shown more but boards get cleaned up there now as fast as you can put them down. Gone are the days.

3. Saw an adult Cal in the process of swallowing a gophersnake, with a small Cal king tugging at the other end of the gophersnake. The smaller one gave up finally and went into a depression in the dirt (cracks and holes in the area) under the grass. The bigger king followed after its meal. I have to assume that the big snake wasn't going to eat the little one. They both probably came out of that hole. Again, I can't say for sure what goes on, but the big king had ample opportunity to constrict the little king but didn't.

Anyway, neat stuff to see. What it means to me is that there is some interaction among individuals that goes beyond what we typically see in the solitary method of keeping.
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Mark

"The smaller one gave up finally and went into a depression in the dirt" LOL ("It was mine, all mine..I coulda been a contender....hissss...." LOL

Yes , it's interesting to hear what other folks see and experience. Part of the procces of putting the puzzles together.

It's how we improve in our keeping skills to ask questions.

On a side note the PVC pipes You've suggested to minimize dehydration are being used quite a bit by some snakes and on a positive note is not resulting in nervousness/aggression on part of the snakes which I have sometimes seen in the past with hides.

Great about the PVC pipes. Baby snakes love them, and adults will use them too. IMO it is the perfect hide - cheap, easy, cut to size and easy to clean. And you can feed the snake right in them.
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Mark

Rainer,
Why is it then when I used to keep my snakes (mexicana) together for more than a day or so they seemed to get TOO used to each other.....After I separated them for a day or two then reintroduced them they were ready to breed again......

I now NEVER keep them together for more than a day or two....I separate, feed then reintroduce......They seem instantly attracted to one another after a separation and reintroduction......

I say do what works....we can never emulate the wild....we can try but we will never succeed....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Absence makes the heart grow fonder? LOL.

>>Absence makes the heart grow fonder? LOL.

Oh...No wonder the wife and I got along so well when I worked out of state.....hehehehehe

If you love something you will let it go and it will return again.....
LOL.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Yes, now that he got a nice whiff of the female's pheromone's, he has nothing else on his mind..LOL!

Keep a close eye on them too when you put them together, and do not assume things can never go wrong, after all, getula are generalized snake eaters(ophiophages).

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I've been breeding MBKs for 10 years. It is not uncommon for a female to reject a male if she is not ready to breed. From what I have seen, males are usually ready to go before females. I'd reintroduce the snakes after she sheds and see if they lock up. If not, I'd seperate them and try again a few days later. It is pretty typical for a male to enthusiastically chase a female around the cage until she submits.

Tim

Third Eye

Thanks to everyone for responding to my question. I've been reading this forum for years but this is the first time ever posting anything. I appreciate any and all input. Thanks again, Steve