Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Let me revisit this...

Feeding excessive calcium leads to, a higher level of urinary calcium and a condition known as (hypercalciuria), this can also build up and create other problems in the kidneys etc. That is what creates a kidney stone. Excessive calcium among other factors.

Kidney stones are caused by the following:

* a high level of urinary calcium (hypercalciuria),
* high urinary oxalate (hyperoxaluria),
* high urinary uric acid (hyperuricosuria),
* insufficient urinary citrate, or
* inadequate water flowing through the kidneys.

When I said there was excreted calcium in the stool...

I was referring to the fact that there is no way for the animal to possibly process all the calcium that they intake when eating dusted crickets, and other insects, day in day out month after month.

Therefore calcium does come out in the stool. This is a fact.

There is uric acid in their stool also. I have noticed that when I do heavy dusting of my crickets with calcium there is more white matter in their poop. Call me crazy but I have noticed this and I am very observant.

Supposedly the dragons excrete all excess calcium straight through. Although as anyone knows... anything metabolized through the intestines is first processed and assimilated through the kidneys and liver.

I think that many breeders and keepers use excess calcium and maybe for some, excess vitamins too. Use sparingly is my personal protocol. (Not saying that Im perfect)

Maybe a gravid female or one your looking to breed. Otherwise there is no need to dust ever time you feed crickets etc.

It can cause other complications in the creature. Their internal organs are not able to process that much calcium. And using it month after month after month. It cant be good. Some of it must calcify and be retained in other organs. It could be more harmful than some think actually. I would need to discuss this with a well trained and experienced herp vet.

I have seen some people with dragons, and pet stores go overboard with the calcium.

I know the dragons are not processing and using all of it. There is no way this is possible. Yes, they excrete uric acid. They also excrete the unused calcium.

So when I said the white stuff was calcium how do you know that it isnt? There is uric acid mixed in there... I will freely admit that. But there is also many other things that get excreted in their stool as well. Uric acid crystals being one of the things, but excess calcium is another.

Personally, I think that by saying all the white matter is purely uric acid crystals is a bunch of hogwash. When I feed my dragons a good deal of water they have runny wet poo. When I feed them a good deal of calcium their poo is whiter than normal.

If the white matter they excrete is only uric acid and you can prove that without a shadow of doubt then I will eat my words "not the poo" but my words.

I think I have made a valid enough argument here.

Show me the uric acid definitive excretion proof please.

There is no way that all this white matter is uric acid crystals. I know for a fact that I was going heavy at this time on the calcium.

Now that I have cut back on the calcium I see less white matter.

Curious on the truth of this, I researched more on whether reptiles do excrete excess calcium along with uric acid in their bowel movements. Apparently they do excrete excess calcium as DreamWorks indicates.

At the bottom of this page, under 'Abstract' it does indicate calcium in stool is being measured as part of the study. www.jstor.org/pss/20095918 Unfortunately to read the entire study results one has to purchase the document.

I think students in certain colleges/universities can get free access, so if any of our student posters/readers can see about getting full access to this study, it would be nice to cut/paste the significant parts of it for us all to see. Tonight, if I don't forget will see if my friend who is studying Animal Sciences can get access, as I am very curious about the rest of the study myself.

Hypercalcemia in reptiles is rather rare from what I can tell in my research. Symptoms of this would be bone defects (spur growths and bumps developing on the bones) and in later stages, renal failure and death.
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PHLdyPayne

thanks for the response

Well if the creatures are not suffering from any ill effects aka: hypercalcemia, then observational analysis would have to bring logic.

For example:

I know that if I eat corn on the cob my body does not process certain hardened materials within the corns structure. The outer membrane of the corn is rarely ever fully processed and is excreted. And amazingly it's still yellow!

The same thing is happening with dragons. Their bodies are not processing all the calcium that we are supplementing their diets with. Impossible

They may process a portion of it, and it may aid in their ability to produce or synthesize D3.

However....

If they are not showing ill effects from hypercalcemia then it is being excreted in their poo. Not sure how your going to take all that white calcium matter and turn it another color.

Calcium (bones contain calcium, and when you buy many products labeled with added calcium they use ground sea shells) most likely that is what they use to produce this reptile grade calcium, ground sea shells, and it certainly is not porous material. It will not turn other colors.

Some of the white matter you see in dragon poo is excess calcium.

That is a fact.

Unless you can prove that the dragons are processing all of the calcium and that the white matter in their poo is uric acid alone and only uric acid crystals then my argument has valid merit.

I dont have a microscope but do a slide with the matter and see what turns up.

And let me just say this...

I have never put any feces in my mouth, ever. Not human or otherwise. If your inclined to try it Bear Grills from survivor says that you can eat herbivore droppings in a survival situation. He downed a few rabbit pellets and said they are like vitamins. You could potentially eat any strictly herbivores poo and it would not harm you according to him.

Personally, I operate with my dragons poo like Im handling infectious waste. I use a diluted bleach solution to clean out their tanks every week to prevent parasite infestation using thick rubber gloves. Also I use rubber gloves when handling their newspaper after defecation.

Of course dragons excrete excess calcium along with everything else excess in their stool. Mammals excrete "Urine" this is the liquid form of "Urates", the white part of a reptiles stool. Whether excess calcium is part of the white or brown is debatable and would be a very small percentage of either. Regardless, the white portion of the stool is primarily Urates or the solid form of uric acids. You bring up your post from months ago where you stated that the white part of the stool was excess calcium. That post is still incorrect.

The white part of the poo is excess urinary secretions, urates, uric acid, and excess calcium, amongst many other waste products.

All this waste matter is filtered out and collected in the liver and kidneys after being processed in the stomach. Then this waste matter is dumped into the colon for discharge.

The white stuff is just as much uric acid as it is excess calcium being discharged.

Go do a few slides of it, or talk to a knowledgeable herp vet... then show me otherwise.

Until that point, your conclusions are as good as mine...

based solely off conjecture.

My information is not conjecture as yours is. But then again I never tasted the poo like you said you did.

And the child in you still persists BDlvr.

I rest my case.

good day sir

Calcium can be 'stained' just as easily as just about everything else excreted by bearded dragons. I don't think having a porous property has anything to do with whether a substance can be 'stained'. I also think calcium is indeed porous...egg shells certainly are and they are made mostly of calcium. (if not completely). Besides, how else would calcium based sand be able to hold colors?

As for calcium excreted in the form of waste, I expect it would be present in all parts of the bowel movement...including the urate mass.

I also expect it will take more than just looking at a smear on a slide to determine what part of the urate mass is calcium or uric crystals. Calcium is an element, it may not even be visible on a standard microscope unless in large chunks. You probably need some device capable of identifying all the elements and chemicals in a sample (mass spectrometer?)

Unfortunately my access to lab equipment is nonexistent and I don't know any bored university students who would love to make a detailed breakdown of what is contained in dragon poop.
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PHLdyPayne