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IRS Audit of HSUS now underway

EricWI Mar 29, 2010 03:40 PM

This just came in my inbox. Credit is given to the Bslworkshop-UAOA group.

Please cross-post:

Many of the over 5,000 who wrote to the IRS Tax Fraud Office in Fresno,
CA have received a Form Letter from the IRS Office in Dallas that has
oversight over all tax-exempt, public charities. Although this is a
Form Letter, it confirms that the IRS Tax Fraud Offices are "talking" to
other IRS Offices about the National Outcry for an audit of the HSUS.
The letter also states that "if you have addional information that you
believe is relevant, . . . send it to the (Dallas Office)." This
confirms that a preliminary audit protocol has begun. Perhaps that is
why many of the incriminating documents, that I had previously
downloaded from the HSUS website, have now mysteriously disappeared from
the HSUS website!!!!! (And yes, I have received unofficial confirmation
from a reliable source that an IRS audit has begun.)
On March 25th my Eighth Installment was sent to the IRS Office in
Dallas. It contains 90 new pages of incriminating documents that
highlight the breadth, magnitude and pervasiveness of the lobbying by
the HSUS at the State Level, especially by the 34 HSUS State Field
Directors and HSUS employees who are Officially listed as "Registered
Lobbyists" in their respective State Capitols, as well as their
involvement in Humane Lobby Days and Lobby 101 Workshops. The HSUS
"Registered Lobbyists" are in the following 34 States:
Alabama Idaho Missouri
Pennsylvania
Arizona Illinois Nebraska
Tennessee
Arkansas Indiana New Hampshire
Vermont
California Iowa New York
Virginia
Colorado Kentucky Nevada
Washington
Connecticut Louisiana North Carolina
West Virginia
Florida Maine Ohio
Wisconsin
Georgia Minnesota Oklahoma
Wyoming
Hawaii Oregon

To increase pressure on the IRS to "Fast Track" an audit of the HSUS, I
am asking as many people as possible to copy and paste appropriate
portions of the Draft Letter set out below and to mail it to the IRS
Office in Dallas by First Class Mail - - a 44 cent stamp.
The Draft Letter refers to the prior 755 pages of incriminating
documents for a reason. It will allow me to finesse and ensure that the
IRS Office in Dallas reviews all 845 pages of incriminating documents.
Failure to do so by that Office will allow me to leverage and elevate
the issue - - this is how one moves a "glacier" within a Government
Bureaucracy.
Thank You for all that you have done to create a "critical mass" of
concern that the IRS simply cannot ignore.
Frank Losey
*****************************************************

Internal Revenue Service
Tax Exempt and Government Entities Division
ATTN: Ms. Nanette M. Downing
Acting Director, EO Examinations
MC 4910DAL
1100 Commerce Street
Dallas, TX 75242

Dear Ms. Downing:
As a follow-up to your request for "additional information" that is
"relevant" concerning the lobbying activities of the HSUS, I ask that
the IRS examine and reflect upon the recently submitted documentation
that has been provided to your Office by Mr. Losey by letter dated March
25, 2010. The 90 pages of incriminating documents attached to that
letter highlight that in addition to the paid lobbyists who are
registered in multiple States to lobby on behalf of the Humane Society
of the U.S. (HSUS), HSUS State Field Directors, or other designated and
paid employees of the HSUS, are "Registered Lobbyists" in at least 34
different State Capitols. (NOTE: If you reside in any of the states
listed above, add the following sentence: For example, if you review
the documentation that Mr. Losey has sent to your Office, you will see
that the HSUS representative for my State is a "Registered Lobbyist."
I ask that you also consider the fact that the HSUS and the HSUS State
Field Directors literally urge thousands of HSUS volunteers in at least
34 States to participate in what they call a Humane Lobby Day at State
Capitols; to participate in "Lobby 101 Workshops," and to contact their
State and Federal Legislators for the purpose of influencing their
actions on State and Federal Legislative Bills. Significantly, the tens
of thousands of hours that are devoted each year to the extensive
lobbying efforts by the HSUS volunteers have never been "fully" reported
to the IRS by the HSUS. Furthermore, the cumulative efforts by those
thousands of HSUS volunteers should be considered in evaluating whether
the HSUS has exceeded the "substantial" test threshold criteria for
lobbying by a tax-exempt, public charity. (NOTE: Attach any E-Mail
that you have received about a Lobby Day event or a request to contact a
Legislator to this letter.) I also ask that the IRS consider the timing
and the double use of "fund raising" advertising that is used "to
influence public opinion on a legislative matter or referendum," such as
a "Ballot Initiative."
Finally, please let me know if you do not have copies of the seven
letters that Mr. Losey has submitted to the IRS Tax Fraud Offices in
Washington DC and Fresno, CA. If you do not have copies of those
letters, as well as the 755 pages of incriminating pages of
documentation concerning the lobbying activities of the HSUS that were
attached those letters, I will ask Mr. Losey to forward them to you.
The dates of the cover letters that accompanied the 755 pages of
documents were October 29, 2008; February 11, 2009; August 18, 2009;
January 4, 2010; January 12, 2010; February 20, 2010; and March 2, 2010.
Respectfully Submitted, (Add Your Signature,
Name and Address)
PS: Please keep my identity confidential.

Replies (42)

CSRAJim Mar 29, 2010 05:04 PM

Eric,

Great work man! FYI - There are other places to look for financial records...The Federal Election Commission (FEC) and for lobbying records, go to the Senate's Office of Public Records...

http://www.fec.gov/disclosure.shtml

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/Public_Disclosure/LDA_reports.htm

Not sure if these are relevant to what you're working on but, here are some more HSUS records (from the FEC)...

Federal Election Commission (FEC), Humane Society Legislative Fund, October 10, 2006 through December 31, 2006, FEC Form 5 (Report of Independent Expenditures Made and Contributions Received) and Schedule 5-E (Itemized Independent Expenditures)
http://images.nictusa.com/pdf/011/27940074011/27940074011.pdf#navpanes=0

Federal Election Commission (FEC), Humane Society Legislative Fund, October 10, 2008 through December 31, 2008, FEC Form 5 (Report of Independent Expenditures Made and Contributions Received) and Schedule 5-E (Itemized Independent Expenditures)
http://images.nictusa.com/pdf/904/29932108904/29932108904.pdf#navpanes=0

There’s another one…The Nature Conservancy. If anyone is interested in reading how some of this "stuff" works - the behind the scenes stuff - Well, these will keep you busy...

The Washington Post, “IRS Toughens Scrutiny of Land Gifts” by Joe Stephens and David B. Ottaway, Washington Post Staff Writers, Thursday, July 1, 2004; Page A01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19102-2004Jun30.html

The Washington Post, “Tax Abuse Rampant in Nonprofits, IRS Says” by Albert B. Crenshaw, Washington Post Staff Writer, Tuesday, April 5, 2005; Page E01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26388-2005Apr4.html

The Chronicle of Philanthropy Update, “Senators Question Tax Breaks Taken by Donors to Conservation Groups” by Brad Wolverton, June 8, 2005
http://philanthropy.com/free/update/2005/06/2005060801.htm

U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, Senator Chuck Grassley, of Iowa - Chairman, Opening Statement of Chairman Chuck Grassley, Committee on Finance Hearing, “The Tax Code and Land Conservation: Report on Investigations and Proposals for Reform”, Wednesday, June 8, 2005
http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/statements/060805cg.pdf

U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, Committee on Finance Hearing, “The Tax Code and Land Conservation: Report on Investigations and Proposals for Reform”, Wednesday, June 8, 2005 (ATTACHMENTS)
http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/statements/060805cgattach.pdf

U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, Committee on Finance Hearing, “The Tax Code and Land Conservation: Report on Investigations and Proposals for Reform”, Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - Testimony of the Honorable Earl E. Devaney, Inspector General for the Department of the Interior Before the Committee on Finance, United States Senate
http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/testimony/2005test/edtest060805.pdf

U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, Committee on Finance Hearing, “The Tax Code and Land Conservation: Report on Investigations and Proposals for Reform”, Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - Statement of Steven J. McCormick On Behalf of the Nature Conservancy, Hearing before the Committee on Finance, United States Senate
http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/testimony/2005test/sm2test060805.pdf

U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, Committee on Finance Hearing, “The Tax Code and Land Conservation: Report on Investigations and Proposals for Reform”, Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - Prepared Testimony of Steven T. Miller, Commissioner, Tax-Exempt and Government Entities Division, Internal Revenue Service before the Committee on Finance, United States Senate
http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/testimony/2005test/smtest060805.pdf

U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, Committee on Finance Hearing, “The Tax Code and Land Conservation: Report on Investigations and Proposals for Reform”, Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - Testimony of Rand Wentworth, President, Land Alliance Trust before the Committee on Finance, United States Senate
http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/testimony/2005test/rwtest060805.pdf

U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, Committee on Finance Hearing, “The Tax Code and Land Conservation: Report on Investigations and Proposals for Reform”, Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - Testimony of Burnett R. Maybank, III, Director, South Carolina Department of Revenue before the Committee on Finance, United States Senate
http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/testimony/2005test/bmtest060805.pdf

U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, Committee on Finance Hearing, “The Tax Code and Land Conservation: Report on Investigations and Proposals for Reform”, Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - Committee Report on the Nature Conservancy - Table of Contents and Executive Summary
http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/other/tnccontents.pdf

U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, Committee on Finance Hearing, “The Tax Code and Land Conservation: Report on Investigations and Proposals for Reform”, Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - Committee Report on the Nature Conservancy - Part One-Overview of Applicable Exempt Organizations Law
http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/other/tncPart%20One_final.pdf

U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, Committee on Finance Hearing, “The Tax Code and Land Conservation: Report on Investigations and Proposals for Reform”, Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - Committee Report on the Nature Conservancy - Part Two-General Observations
http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/other/tncPart%20Two_final.pdf

U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, Committee on Finance Hearing, “The Tax Code and Land Conservation: Report on Investigations and Proposals for Reform”, Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - Committee Report on the Nature Conservancy - Part Three-Detailed Discussion of Certain TNC Programs & Activities
http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/other/tncPart%20III_final.pdf

U.S. Senate Committee on Finance, Committee on Finance Hearing, “The Tax Code and Land Conservation: Report on Investigations and Proposals for Reform”, Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - Committee Report on the Nature Conservancy - Part Four-Discussion of IRS Reporting Requirements
http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/other/TNC%20Part%20Four_final.pdf

News Release - Doris Duke Charitable Foundation, Environment Program, “$1.6 Million Awarded to Assess Options for Optimizing Federal Climate Policies”, Grants will enable three nonpartisan research organizations to analyze issues of interest to policymaker and respond to request for input on policy design by Douglas Meyer, March 19, 2009
http://www.ddcf.org/doris_duke_files/download_files/ClimateChangeNewsRelease031909.pdf

News Release - Doris Duke Charitable Foundation, Environment Program, “$7 Million Awarded to Accelerate the Implementation of State Wildlife Action Plans in the Northwest”, Grant will enable organizations in Idaho, Oregon and Washington to conserve priority natural areas by Douglas Meyer, March 11, 2009
http://www.ddcf.org/doris_duke_files/download_files/LPI4NorthwestPR2009.pdf

News Release - Doris Duke Charitable Foundation, Environment Program, “$3.6 Million Awarded to Help States Safeguard Nature in an Era of Climate Change”, Grant will enable four organizations to assist states in updating and implementing their wildlife action plans by Douglas Meyer, April 21, 2009
http://www.ddcf.org/doris_duke_files/download_files/SWAPClimateChangePRApr2009c.pdf

US Fish and Wildlife Service - FY2006 Cooperative Endangered Species Conservation Fund Grants, Habitat Conservation Plan Land Acquisition Grants by State, Endangered Species Program
http://www.fws.gov/home/feature/2006/Sect6FY2006AwardSummariesCompletePDFFINAL.pdf

US Fish and Wildlife Service - FY2007 Cooperative Endangered Species Conservation Fund Grants, Habitat Conservation Plan Land Acquisition Grants by State (Draft Project Descriptions Arranged by State), Endangered Species Program
http://www.fws.gov/midwest/endangered/grants/2007/S6Nont2007AwardSummaries.pdf

US Fish and Wildlife Service - FY2008 Cooperative Endangered Species Conservation Fund Grants, Habitat Conservation Plan Land Acquisition Grants by State, Endangered Species Program
http://www.fws.gov/pdfs/Sect6FY2008AwardSummariesFINAL.pdf

US Fish and Wildlife Service - FY2009 Cooperative Endangered Species Conservation Fund Grants, Habitat Conservation Plan Land Acquisition Grants by State, Endangered Species Program
http://www.fws.gov/endangered/grants/section6/Sect%206%20FY%202009%20Combined%20Award%20Summaries%20FINAL.pdf

Austin Business Journal, “Nature Conservancy Buys 7,000-Acre Fresno Ranch in Big Bend”, Tuesday, November 18, 2008
http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2008/11/17/daily19.html

OK, so why is this important? The federal government and their partners (HSUS, TNC, the Conservation Fund, etc) are buying up America's lands...For what purpose? 84.5% of the entire state of Nevada is owned by the FWS, FS and BLM...Why?

If the government and their partners own it, they control it. Also, it decreases available tax revenue from the counties (the federal stipend is a joke)...

Here's an interesting map...
http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2008/06/17/291-federal-lands-in-the-us/

Later,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Mar 30, 2010 08:44 AM

That's outrageous-The Nature Conservancy is a friend to habitat, hunters and fisherman, and NOT an enemy to herpers. We should be concentrating our forces on our real enemies, the Animal Rights orgs. I for one will have no part of any witch hunt against TNC, and hopefully most reasonable herpers will agree.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Calparsoni Mar 30, 2010 03:10 PM

With all due respect to you brad they are not a friend to herpers here in fl. They are one of the largest supporters of banning rocs out right here in fl. perhaps it is only the fl. chapter and not the organization as a whole. If that is so then the main organization needs to speak up and tell that spokeswoman who is always quoted in articles concerning rocs here in fl. to STFU because she certainly isn't helping their cause we me and countless others here in fl. I won't necessarily participate in actively going after them for it but I won't support them either as a result of it.

BRhaco Mar 30, 2010 04:48 PM

Oh, I have no doubt that locally in Florida they may be supporting giant snake eradication, as I'm sure they do a lot of other anti-invasive efforts. But, unlike our true enemies, they as an organization do not have a policy of going after the herp industry as a whole. And we need to keep it that way, by doing as our mothers told us and "not pick fights"..

The Nature Conservancy has done incalculable good for habitat protection and conservation throughout this country, and we could lose a lot of credibility by appearing to go after them. Sure, oppose them locally on the python issue in Florida, but let's be clear we're not opposing their overall mission.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Calparsoni Mar 30, 2010 10:14 PM

In this case we didn't pick the fight they did. My mother also told me not to mess with wasps nests if I didn't want to get stung. Which is exactly what the nature conservancy has done with herpers here in fl. I may not bother them but they shouldn't be surprised when a few angry wasps come flying their way.
Quite honestly if they want to pick on our pets I don't really care if someone starts snooping around their finances to make sure they are all legal. They should have thought about that before opening their mouth. I haven't done any landscaping for a while I currently play guitar in bars for money.

Calparsoni Mar 30, 2010 10:17 PM

sorry about the end of that post I guess that's what I get for talking to friends on the phone while posting. I hope that gives context to that last statement which has nothing to do with the tnc. and no I won't do any charity gigs for them either.

WSTREPS Mar 30, 2010 06:45 PM

I agree that the attitude of"I won't necessarily participate in actively going after them for it but I won't support them either as a result of it," is the best one. I think its about all anyone can do.

You cant convert the believers and the followers of groups such as The Nature Conservancy, The Audubon Society, The Sierra Club etc. These people are just as enamored with the preaching found in the endless propaganda laced publications and programs pushed by these high powered and very corrupt groups, as the people who follow the HSUS and Peta are with the preaching these groups spew. Its all the same thing, the same method of converting reasonable people into suckers, These groups are all cut from the same cloth and all use a very effective plan of brain washing based on exploiting human emotion.

People often choose idealism over truth, such is the case with those who support giant activist groups such as The Nature Conservancy, just like the followers of Peta the justification argument that the good outweighs the bad does not hold up, but......................they want to and will keep on believing. Like that cartoon with the guy holding out his hand acting like he wants the other person to shake it, all the while hiding a mallet behind his back knowing he's going to clobber the guy, these "believers" are making sure we all get whacked over and over by supporting their chosen activist faith.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

jscrick Mar 30, 2010 09:06 PM

Such well though sentiment, Ernie. I'm somewhat on the fence here, but I knew Brad's profound statement would raise a few comments.
I love you guys!
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

CSRAJim Mar 30, 2010 09:57 PM

John,

It did...What the politicians have done to us, so has the TNC...

Just my opinion...I trust none of them anymore!

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Mar 30, 2010 10:14 PM

Ernie, you really should watch something besides Fox news every once in a while.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Mar 30, 2010 10:46 PM

Brad,

You should do more research...

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Mar 30, 2010 10:49 PM

Jim-

I see the same stuff you do, just that the black helicopters escape me.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Mar 30, 2010 11:41 PM

Brad,

I'm sorry but I just don't believe you do.

No, the black thopters don't bother me (besides I'd like the ride again - a nap-of-the-earth flight on one is best "roller coaster ride" you'll ever take)...MAN! What a rush man!

I'm worried about the Klingons!

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

CSRAJim Mar 30, 2010 10:44 PM

Ernie,

>>You can’t convert the believers and the followers of groups such as The Nature Conservancy, The Audubon Society, the Sierra Club etc. These people are just as enamored with the preaching found in the endless propaganda laced publications and programs pushed by these high powered and very corrupt groups, as the people who follow the HSUS and PETA are with the preaching these groups spew. It’s all the same thing, the same method of converting reasonable people into suckers, these groups are all cut from the same cloth and all use a very effective plan of brain washing based on exploiting human emotion.

Yep, no research = no clue…

>>People often choose idealism over truth, such is the case with those who support giant activist groups such as The Nature Conservancy, just like the followers of Peta the justification argument that the good outweighs the bad does not hold up, but......................they want to and will keep on believing. Like that cartoon with the guy holding out his hand acting like he wants the other person to shake it, all the while hiding a mallet behind his back knowing he's going to clobber the guy, these "believers" are making sure we all get whacked over and over by supporting their chosen activist faith.

The good that appears in the glossy brochures is the propaganda banner for the cover for what they’re really doing…Being oblivious is bliss.

Later,
Jim

-----
CSRAJim

CSRAJim Mar 30, 2010 09:56 PM

Calparsoni,

I agree...

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

CSRAJim Mar 30, 2010 09:51 PM

Brad,

A year ago, I would have agreed with you but not anymore. My last experience with the TNC was when I was in college many years ago but, since then, my opinion has changed. I’m not asking you to agree with what I’m saying or post, I’m just posting information that I didn’t know even existed…And judging from you posts, you don't either.

>>That's outrageous-The Nature Conservancy is a friend to habitat, hunters and fisherman, and NOT an enemy to herpers. We should be concentrating our forces on our real enemies, the Animal Rights orgs. I for one will have no part of any witch hunt against TNC, and hopefully most reasonable herpers will agree.

No, it’s not “outrageous” at all, if you actually read those documents that I posted, you’d see that complying with the laws and regulations (IRS)of non-profits were not followed…Whatever slap on the wrist they got is a joke as they are STILL a 501(c)(3)…I wonder if the IRS would do the same to either you or me. Perhaps they're just too big to fail...Like Goldman Sachs...Which has ties to TNC (via their board and executive staff)...Go ahead and question this...

If you think they are our friend, in my opinion that is not the case. In addition to many other things that I've learned about what TNC does that I disagree with (the IRS/Senate investigation to name one of them), here are a few other.

The Nature Conservancy (TNC) is a member of the National Environmental Coalition on Invasive Species (NECIS). Ever heard of it? The membership includes, among others, the Defenders of Wildlife (DOW), the National Wildlife Foundation (NWF), the Center for International Environmental Law (CIEL), the Environmental Law Institute (ELI), the National Wildlife Refuge Association (NWRA) and the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS).

As a “coalition”, they’ve testified before congress April 29, 2003…
http://www.glu.org/sites/default/files/DC-testimony-4-28-03.pdf

As a “coalition”, they’ve issued position statements…
http://www.icta.org/doc/NECIS - Position Statement, Ecological risks trade.pdf

As a “coalition”, they’ve issued a position statement on H.R.2811 and S.373 (note the names that appear at the bottom of the statement)…
http://www.necis.net/files/joint-statement-on-h.r.-2811

As a “coalition”, they’ve published a “facts/myths” paper…
http://www.necis.net/files/myths-vs-facts-on-hr-669.pdf

TNC has even signed their name to an “action plan” to the president regarding invasive species (I agree with a lot of this) but, the methods of operation of the action plan are the same as was it called for in H.R.669, H.R.2811 and S.373…Smoke screen to get the bills passed in some form? I wonder…
http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/invasive_species/NECIS-brochure.pdf

Along with the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC), the DOW, the NWF and the UCS, The Nature Conservancy put their name on this document in support of H.R.669…
http://www.defendersofwildlife.org/resources/publications/policy_and_legislation/support_h.r._669.pdf

>>Oh, I have no doubt that locally in Florida they may be supporting giant snake eradication, as I'm sure they do a lot of other anti-invasive efforts. But, unlike our true enemies, they as an organization do not have a policy of going after the herp industry as a whole. And we need to keep it that way, by doing as our mothers told us and "not pick fights"..

“Unlike our true enemies, they as an organization do not have a policy of going after the herp industry as a whole”…I beg to differ Brad. They don’t publish it (I wonder why they’re quiet about it), but they surely sign their name to things that sound just like our “true enemies”…

>>The Nature Conservancy has done incalculable good for habitat protection and conservation throughout this country, and we could lose a lot of credibility by appearing to go after them. Sure, oppose them locally on the python issue in Florida, but let's be clear we're not opposing their overall mission.

You are correct, they most certainly are involved in Florida…And in many other states as well. When was the last time you actually read what they advocate on their website?
http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/florida/science/

They serve on “committee” to advise policymakers at the state and federal level…

“Conservancy staff serves on state and federal advisory committees, and informs policy-makers with the latest and best scientific advice. National legislation that would affect the importation of non-native wildlife, especially reptiles such as south Florida’s highly-invasive Burmese python, is a hot topic today.”

They’re on the ground against invasive species…

“The Conservancy joins state and federal agencies and a variety of private and non-traditional groups in an on-the-ground battle against invasive species.”

They’re involved in CISMA’s…Eight of them in fact and co-chairs the Florida Invasive Species Partnership (FISP)…A look at the map, and they’re involved in a lot of the state of Florida.
http://www.floridainvasives.org/

“Many regional Cooperative Invasive Species Management Areas (CISMAs) have been established to share expertise and resources. The Conservancy is actively engaged in eight of these local partnerships. The Conservancy also co-chairs the Florida Invasive Species Partnership, a group of representatives from agencies and organizations, that advises and helps implement the work of the CISMAs”

And on their website above, you’ll find these articles of interest (note the dates of the articles)…
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/03/24/Congress-proposes-ban-on-snake-sales/UPI-98221269448518/
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/03/25/investopedia43095.DTL

Want to know how the boa/python list became nine? Want to know how S.373 is “better balanced and more likely to succeed” than H.R.669 was? And there’s that alligator/python picture again…
http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/florida/science/gov_invasives.html

“The Conservancy then encouraged an amendment to a Senate bill, which until then only banned Burmese pythons. Now it includes all nine.”

“We’ve also commented on a House bill, HR 669, the Non-native Wildlife Invasion Prevention Act. We expect a companion to it to be introduced in the Senate in January. HR 669 may have been a bit too far-reaching; the new Senate bill is better balanced and more likely to succeed.”

And they include a food “pyramid” to boot…(note the source, Skip Snow, NPS)
http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/florida/files/pyramid_of_python_menu_items.pdf

They’re in Arizona as well…
http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/arizona/press/press2141.html

And finally, since 2008, TNC has been a member of the DOI’s “Invasive Species Advisory Council”...
http://www.doi.gov/archive/news/08_News_Releases/080801a.html

Look man, you believe whatever you want...Not me, I’m posting factual stuff because I feel betrayed by an organization that I once believed in…Time for them to feel some heat.

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Mar 30, 2010 10:12 PM

Jim-

I don't know why any of this is such a big surprise to you. It certainly isn't to me. Invasive species are a huge problem, the scientific community is united on this. Mainstream environmental groups are also pretty much united in opposition to invasives-and the solutions they are backing are simply the ones their biologists are recommending.

AR groups, however, are cynically EXPLOITING the invasive issue to further their own agenda, the bans on pet ownership. They don't give a damn about invasives, natural environments, habitats etc.

I (and I hope most herpers) agree with the scientific community-invasives need to be stopped. It's up to us to steer orgs and regulators toward solutions that will still allow our hobby to continue. I fail to see how making a bunch of new enemies will further our aims. But by all means, if you think we need millions of additional people writing their congressman about the pet reptile menace, then who am I to say?
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Mar 30, 2010 10:35 PM

Brad,

>>I don't know why any of this is such a big surprise to you. It certainly isn't to me. Invasive species are a huge problem, the scientific community is united on this. Mainstream environmental groups are also pretty much united in opposition to invasives-and the solutions they are backing are simply the ones their biologists are recommending.

The “invasives” issue isn’t a surprise Brad…As I said, in the recommendations to the president, I agree with most of…Guess you missed that. What IS a surprise is seeing the level of involvement of TNC in H.R.669, H.R.2811 and S.373…Or didn’t you read that. What’s a “mainstream” environmental group anyway? What biologists? Rodda, et al?

>>AR groups, however, are cynically EXPLOITING the invasive issue to further their own agenda, the bans on pet ownership. They don't give a damn about invasives, natural environments, habitats etc.

And apparently, TNC is QUIETLY exploiting the “invasives” issue…Why? With their QUIET support of these bills, I’m glad to know that TNC is my friend. So in your opinion, cynically = bad and quietly = give them a pass so as not to make them mad?

>>I (and I hope most herpers) agree with the scientific community-invasives need to be stopped. It's up to us to steer orgs and regulators toward solutions that will still allow our hobby to continue. I fail to see how making a bunch of new enemies will further our aims. But by all means, if you think we need millions of additional people writing their congressman about the pet reptile menace, then who am I to say?

You are not to say and I fail to see how TNC steered anyone one of the “regulators towards solutions that will still allow our hobby to continue”…H.R.669 would’ve ended it and TNC supported it…It seems to me that TNC has QUIETLY chosen a side here…

Later,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Mar 30, 2010 10:47 PM

Jim-

"...I fail to see how TNC steered anyone one of the “regulators towards solutions that will still allow our hobby to continue”…H.R.669 would’ve ended it and TNC supported it…It seems to me that TNC has QUIETLY chosen a side here… "

I didn't say TNC steered anyone anywhere-I said it was OUR job to do so.

And in your link I saw the TNC say that HR 669 was too restrictive. If you'll read my post you'll see that I never said the TNC was "our friend" (although to those of us who care about nature and habitat beyond our vivaria, I would argue they decidedly ARE friends), just not our enemy.

You have to look at goals from the standpoint of a biologist-HR 669 was proposed because it would certainly solve a problem-but in a way that is a bit like pressing in a thumbtack with a sledgehammer. But we herpers got our point across and less restrictive measures were proposed. Again, the mainstreams will support regulations which are supported by the preponderance of the biologist community. This should not be a shock to anyone.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

jscrick Mar 30, 2010 11:09 PM

Maybe it is just our system, the way good intentions and ideas get so perverted when put into effect. Is it the money or the politics, or just human nature, I don't know.
To lighten and change the subject a bit, I took some wildflower pics today. The second pic. is the link to the entire 12 photo album.
Thanks,
jsc


-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

brhaco Mar 30, 2010 11:22 PM

John-

Beautiful shots! I wish I was a better botanist, I bet I could point out an invasive plant or two there
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Mar 30, 2010 11:34 PM

John,

Beautful man! Thanks for lightening things up a bit...

My Bradford pear trees are killing my sinuses but, I love seeing those big beautiful white "puff balls"...And every fall, seeing those deep, blood red leaves...

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

Calparsoni Mar 30, 2010 11:52 PM

It's been a long time since I have seen Texas wildflowers The bluebonnets were really cool I miss them. There really aren't a lot of wild flowers here in fl. compared to a lot of other places. If it weren't for some of those dang "invasives" like madagascar periwinkles and such as well as the non-native wild flower plantings done on the roadways this state would be just plain ugly.

brhaco Mar 31, 2010 12:03 AM

Boy, I can't agree there-I remember the first time I saw Florida when I was about 10 (1970). To a budding herper, it looked better than the garden of Eden! And I still love it.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Calparsoni Mar 31, 2010 09:28 AM

Most of the impressive Flowers you see are not native and some of them are downright invasive although they are better than the alternative of nothing. If you took the sand pines and the saw palmettos of my property I would look a lot like south Texas except even there you have flowers on a lot of the shrubs in the spring time which may not look so impressive in the day but at night under a full moon look fantastic. and of course there you have the fields of wild flowers not so many of them here and most of those not native.
You do however have Poincianas (madagascar), jacarandas (south america),tibouchinas (south america) pink and yellow tabebuias (south america) azaleas (japan), camelias (northern india..I think) water hycinths (south america) singapore daisies (oddly enough from south america) lantana (midwest usa) amaryllis (south africa) I could go on if you want I do landscaping here so I'm pretty familiar with a lot of the plants here. Don't get me wrong fl isn't flowerless as far as natives go but it isn't exactly like some dutch tulip field either.

BRhaco Mar 31, 2010 11:07 AM

I agree-here in the Texas Hill Country the flowers are really showing their colors this spring-hard to beat Texas this time of year.

Are those white flowers they call "spider lillies" native to Florida or introduced? I assume native, since I saw them growing apparently wild in the Bahama out islands....
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

jscrick Mar 31, 2010 11:26 AM

Speaking of Bahama Outer Islands, has anyone been to Great Exuma and Little Exuma, or to Stocking Island.
Stayed at the Two Turtles Inn.
Tell me about the Epicrates and Cyclura there.
When I went it was June, I believe. I was 13. There was some nasty thorn scrub/Mangrove swampy area towards the interior, as I recall.
Only found Curly Tail Lizards and Reef Geckos.
Too hot I'll bet. Didn't do too much serious hunting. Nothing at night.
Dad rented a Morris Minor and we all pilled in for a trip from one end to the other of both Exumas.
A trip I will never forget. I so want to go back some day.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Calparsoni Mar 31, 2010 11:53 AM

There are 2 plants that I can think of that you might be talking about. One is the crinum lilly and I am not sure if the species here is C. asiaticum which comes from asia or if it is C. pendunculatum which is from Australia. If it is the little wild non-variegated version of the spider plant things that everybody's grandmother had then the answer is I am not sure. I do see them growing around alot even in my own yard. I am not sure on it but from the looks of them they may be in the trandescantia family (wandering jews) which I know is a new world genus and is represented here in the state by 3 different species (4 if you count the oyster plants which are introduced.) but whether they are native or not I have never looked that deeply into it although I seem to recall seeing something about the one species with the blue flowers that looks like a dwarf iris being a native. I do know that 2 of the species are quite invasive if they get into your yard and you either overwater it or have a high water table. I also know that redfoot tortoises and box turtles will eat the heck out of them.

BRhaco Mar 31, 2010 02:51 PM

I mean the ones with the white flowers with the long, filamentous petals....
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Calparsoni Apr 01, 2010 10:35 AM

those are most likely crinum lilies as mentioned yesterday the 2 most likely candidates for exactly what species you are seeing is either crinum asiaticum or crinum pendunculatum from asia and australia respectively or possibly a hybrid of the 2 or perhaps a hybrid of one or both and some other species. You never know with commercially produced plants just what exactly they crossed to get the appearance they are looking for.
They are definitely not native but they do naturalize in some areas. Not enough to be called invasive but you will occasionally see a group of them growing somewhere where they shouldn't normally be.
btw this did get me thinking about a particular type of plant that I don't believe is on the radar yet for being an invasive but should be and in the context of the discussion will probably become a serious pest in the everglades.
That plant is ruellia or mexican petunia. It is a pretty plant with purple flowers which butterflies love and is incredibly versatile in the landscape as it is drought tolerant but also does just fine with it's feet wet as well.
The drought tolerence makes it really popular with all the water nazis who are obsessed with everyone xeriscaping. However I have already seen it begin taking over the edges of creeks and growing in boggy areas in a manner similar to cattails.
It used to be marketed as a "florida friendly" plant because of it's drought tolerance. I give it about 3 to 4 years and all of the sudden this plant will be a worse threat than the burms (which it potentially is.) From what I have seen in central fl so far if that plant gets into the glades(it probably has already) it will take over worse than water hyacinth or cattails at least it will look pretty.

CSRAJim Mar 30, 2010 11:30 PM

Jim-

>>"...I fail to see how TNC steered anyone one of the “regulators towards solutions that will still allow our hobby to continue”…H.R.669 would’ve ended it and TNC supported it…It seems to me that TNC has QUIETLY chosen a side here…"

>>I didn't say TNC steered anyone anywhere-I said it was OUR job to do so.

No Brad, they DID steer the regulators and the legislators…With TNC’s help the list went to nine…With TNC’s help, they came up with S.373! Or can’t you read? OK, we agree, it is our job (as it’s always been) and that’s why I’ve already written to my congressman about it and visited the local office to discuss this “stuff” with congressional staff.

>>And in your link I saw the TNC say that HR 669 was too restrictive. If you'll read my post you'll see that I never said the TNC was "our friend" (although to those of us who care about nature and habitat beyond our vivaria, I would argue they decidedly ARE friends), just not our enemy.

No Brad, they didn’t say it was “too restrictive”, TNC said it “may have been a bit too far-reaching” as in they didn’t expect to face such resistance to it when H.R.669 was proposed in the first place…So, S.373 (and H.R.2811) was devised as it was “better balanced and more likely to succeed”…Meaning, get this one passed and add what is missing from H.R.669 later…Via amended bills or even put it in another bill to get a “compromise” bill passed. What TNC has quietly supported, behind the scenes, is H.R.669 Brad…And that’s exactly what the AR crowd wants…I care very much about nature Brad…Nice to see that we agree on something else…I guess you can “decidedly argue” all you want…TNC DID sponsor H.R.669, H.R.2811 and S.373…I’d hardly call that being a friend to what we do.

>>You have to look at goals from the standpoint of a biologist-HR 669 was proposed because it would certainly solve a problem-but in a way that is a bit like pressing in a thumbtack with a sledgehammer. But we herpers got our point across and less restrictive measures were proposed. Again, the mainstreams will support regulations which are supported by the preponderance of the biologist community. This should not be a shock to anyone.

Look at it from a biologist’s point of view? You’re kidding! I believe that the “experts” at FWS, USGS, et al ARE BIOLOGISTS! Less restrictive measures were proposed? Like ROC’s? Hey here’s an idea, why not look at from a free citizen’s point of view without the government and their NGO partners telling us what we can and can’t have?

As a metaphor, the argument is over 10 marbles...This time I'll agree to give up 2 marbles for them to go away...In a few years the process WILL repeat itself, only then it's about 8 marbles...Again, I agree to give up two for them to go away...The process repeats itself and its about 6 marbles...Pretty soon, they have all the marbles and there is no more argument. Problem solved.

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Mar 31, 2010 12:00 AM

"Look at it from a biologist’s point of view? You’re kidding! I believe that the “experts” at FWS, USGS, et al ARE BIOLOGISTS! Less restrictive measures were proposed? Like ROC’s? Hey here’s an idea, why not look at from a free citizen’s point of view without the government and their NGO partners telling us what we can and can’t have? "

NOW who's being the idealist?

The private sector didn't police themselves, now it's being done for us. I agree-it sucks. I don't want ANYONE telling me what I can and can't work with! It, quite frankly, pisses me off!

I'd much rather we'd been more careful over the years and all this had never come up. There are things we could have done voluntarily 10-20 years ago which would have headed off all or most of this current situation. But those few of us who spoke up were ignored or, sometimes, shouted down. I recall some pretty big names in the industry calling for voluntary import restrictions, and controls on breeding and selling the giants. Went over like a lead balloon.

Too late now.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Mar 31, 2010 12:21 AM

Brad,

>>"Look at it from a biologist’s point of view? You’re kidding! I believe that the “experts” at FWS, USGS, et al ARE BIOLOGISTS! Less restrictive measures were proposed? Like ROC’s? Hey here’s an idea, why not look at it from a free citizen’s point of view without the government and their NGO partners telling us what we can and can’t have? "

>>NOW who's being the idealist?

I’ve always been an idealist as opposed to believing in materialism…Somehow life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness always stuck with me…I wonder why?

>>The private sector didn't police themselves, now it's being done for us. I agree-it sucks. I don't want ANYONE telling me what I can and can't work with! It, quite frankly, pisses me off!

So instead of treating the “idiots” like "idoits" (and I fully support this), they treat us all that way. Sounds like sound, “peer reviewed” logic to me…

>>I'd much rather we'd been more careful over the years and all this had never come up. There are things we could have done voluntarily 10-20 years ago which would have headed off all or most of this current situation. But those few of us who spoke up were ignored or, sometimes, shouted down. I recall some pretty big names in the industry calling for voluntary import restrictions, and controls on breeding and selling the giants. Went over like a lead balloon.

If you did more research, you’d know why…I’ll leave it there.

>>Too late now.

As things stand now…I’ll leave you with this for the night…”I fear that all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve…” Admiral Yamamoto following the news of Tora, Tora, Tora. I don’t like having things shoved down my throat and apparently, there are many others like me…I am an idealist after all. Ha! Ha!

Have a good one,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Mar 31, 2010 12:32 AM

I honestly hope you're right-I just have trouble seeing a few tens of thousands of herpers as much of a sleeping giant.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Calparsoni Mar 31, 2010 08:59 AM

Way less than 10.000 people in one state put G.W. in office. Whether you agree or disagree with him is irrelevant. Most elections represent only a small fraction of the eligible voters. Not to mention there is a lot of anger out there at incumbents for many other reasons right now aside from reptiles. I mean c'mon brad you lived in N.Y. I know you were close enough to Mass. to be surprised that a republican to Ted Kennedy's seat, I know I was.

brhaco Mar 30, 2010 11:43 PM

Reading through your links, Jim, I came across this from the TNC Policy advisor for Florida:

"Prevention is our least expensive and most effective tool. Florida can get out in front of this potentially terrible problem before it’s too late. The Conservancy is very concerned, and we’re working hard for a solution.

The conversation needs to stay balanced, rational and in touch with reality – meaning that people can’t own everything; neither can policies ban everything."

That to me is a factual statement (and literally already true). The days of having it all our own way are now gone. But US Ark and the herping community have been about as effective as we could hope at moderating the excesses and keeping the more extreme ideas from becoming public policy. If you look at those links, and see the kinds of things they were saying a few years ago versus now, you see a change- more consideration being given to the private sector. I think everyone, on all sides, are getting an education here....Excepting HSUS and PETA-can't educate those guys.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Mar 31, 2010 12:04 AM

Brad,

Reading through your links, Jim, I came across this from the TNC Policy advisor for Florida:

>>"Prevention is our least expensive and most effective tool. Florida can get out in front of this potentially terrible problem before it’s too late. The Conservancy is very concerned, and we’re working hard for a solution. The conversation needs to stay balanced, rational and in touch with reality – meaning that people can’t own everything; neither can policies ban everything."

OK, but what is the Conservancy actually concerned about here? Why did they quietly support in H.R.669, if they had their way, they would have allowed us to have what, ship what, transport what?

>>That to me is a factual statement (and literally already true). The days of having it all our own way are now gone. But US Ark and the herping community have been about as effective as we could hope at moderating the excesses and keeping the more extreme ideas from becoming public policy. If you look at those links, and see the kinds of things they were saying a few years ago versus now, you see a change- more consideration being given to the private sector. I think everyone, on all sides, are getting an education here....Excepting HSUS and PETA-can't educate those guys.

We agree again, sadly, the old days are gone and we are getting an education…And yes, I also saw a change as well but, not in the consideration of the private sector man (IMO)…The question is why? We are 100% on HSUS and PETA! No doubt about that my friend! Great discussion man.

Later,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Mar 31, 2010 12:08 AM

That's what I like about all my friends here on kingsnake (and why I've been here almost from the beginning)-it's one of the few forums where everyone can disagree strongly yet still have a respectful discussion (for the most part lol)...
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Jaykis Mar 31, 2010 08:07 PM

I believe the vast majority of the regular population still looks at PETA as a bunch of nuts, and completely ignores them.

norajohn Mar 31, 2010 11:33 AM

the way I see the Nature Conservancy is like this; A bunch of elitist that have under their control a huge amount of land that they (meaning anyone that works for them) has access to, but not you and me. If you want access to the land you will be taken on a guided tour by some college student dressed up like Steve Irwin, and be shown the wonders of nature; but do not touch or interact with nature yourself as that is only for the "experts" and "professionals"

Again, please correct me if I am wrong as I really don't know that much about how they manage the property under their control, but this is the feeling I get from them and I actually hope I am wrong.

John Manser

BRhaco Mar 31, 2010 02:55 PM

You're wrong

I've actually experienced some of the best fly fishing ever on TNC lands. Each region is different, but such activities as hiking, fishing, even hunting are often permitted, as long as no sensitive plant or animal species are present that such activities may disrupt. Often, previous reservations are required.

As I said before, these orgs have many prominent hunters and fishermen on their Boards.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

norajohn Mar 31, 2010 08:06 PM

That's music to my ears Brad.

Thanks for the information.

John Manser

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