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I will try to make a very long story very short. Many people have puchased het this or that ball pythons from me in the past and I am always happy to hear them proved out as you know no matter how good people feel about buying a het from somebody they trust, they will feel that much better when a pied or albino or a whatever pops out of an egg. Kind of a feeling of relief right? I have been there believe me.

So the reason I post this is simple, I bought a small collection from a friend. Just a couple small racks of snakes. In this collection there were three proven het albino females that all had produced albino babies before and one "het albino" that my friend purchased from a big name guy in this business at a big herp show years ago. This female was bred only to the same albino male that fathered the other albino clutches and three years in a row she has produced not one albino, total of 18 hatched eggs. I bred her with the same male albino and another male albino this season. She has just laid 6 eggs.

I forgot to mention, his collection is small enough that there is no chance the animal was ever mixed or confused with something else. It is the same animal.

What I want your honest answer on is: With 24 eggs on the ground, all from albino x "het" there is almost non existent odds that her clutches have just been misses and that she is in fact not at all a het albino. What do you guys think should be said and/or done about this when the animal was purchased at a high price back when they had value and if the 6 eggs come out normal (hets) and no albinos at that point does anyone really think that it is unfair to accuse somebody of selling a normal as het with that big a test group and regardless of wether it was accidental or intentional what about all that lost income from that purchase? 4 years of selling albino babies at $1000-400 each as the market moved and the cost of raising and keeping the female all these years?

I would really like to hear opinions. We broach this subject sometimes but what really should be done? How is the best way to really deal with this problem and what do you think is fair for being out so much money?
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

I would say even before this clutch it has been shown that this animal is not a het.
Sounds like a normal was bought a a very high price.
If you don't get at least 1 albino out of this clutch, I think there is no doubt that the snake is not a het. No way could the odds be that bad when bred to a visual.

Evan,
I have gone through the same ordeal with a few different hets though the years.
In my opinion, the best thing to do is contact the person your friend bought the snake from with your friend to see if maybe the breeder will compensate you in some agreeable way, (if they're still in business). If that doesn't work out, there's always Fauna so that it doesn't happen to other people with the same breeder.
It's always really hard to prove anything unless you have pictures on your receipt when buying hets (some visual documentation) or pictures in e-mail referencing the het.
It's painful, though, to pay $1000 -$3000 for hets that never prove out-even years later......
I feel bad for you. Been there more than once.
-Kenny Scott

Hey Kenny, I appreciate it but I just bought his collection recently and got this animal as part of it and with knowing the whole picture ahead of time. So I am expecting her to produce all hets and then I will sell her as a normal breeder to somebody that wants more normal girls. I just feel bad for my buddy who paid this guy good money and I really feel like it was done with knowledge of her lack of genetics.

I am not able to post on that other site as I was too honest and posted there what I thought of the dictator who runs that site where people are supposedly free to post their opinions and experiences. Also, this breeder who sold this animal is somebody who uses both this and that site and on that site I am sure it would likely be just me getting labeled as a liar. Too bad my friend has pics of this animal when purchased and knows 100% for a fact that it is the same animal and who it came from.

It is a shame that there are well known people in this business that have cheated many people and yet people refuse to believe it no matter how many people say otherwise due to their self created celibrity like status in this industry. Ah the stories I could tell you Kenny. BUT do not fear kingsnake.com people, I will not break your tos and post anything derrogotroy or accusational about anybody here. I am just fishing for what public opinion may be for dealing with this type of thing.
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

That’s why the best way to alleviate this sort of problem is to always buy a visual. There’s been instances when females retain sperm from the previous season....how does one guarantee a het is really a het..unless the female was virgin.
Pitoon

>>Hey Kenny, I appreciate it but I just bought his collection recently and got this animal as part of it and with knowing the whole picture ahead of time. So I am expecting her to produce all hets and then I will sell her as a normal breeder to somebody that wants more normal girls. I just feel bad for my buddy who paid this guy good money and I really feel like it was done with knowledge of her lack of genetics.
>>
>>I am not able to post on that other site as I was too honest and posted there what I thought of the dictator who runs that site where people are supposedly free to post their opinions and experiences. Also, this breeder who sold this animal is somebody who uses both this and that site and on that site I am sure it would likely be just me getting labeled as a liar. Too bad my friend has pics of this animal when purchased and knows 100% for a fact that it is the same animal and who it came from.
>>
>>It is a shame that there are well known people in this business that have cheated many people and yet people refuse to believe it no matter how many people say otherwise due to their self created celibrity like status in this industry. Ah the stories I could tell you Kenny. BUT do not fear kingsnake.com people, I will not break your tos and post anything derrogotroy or accusational about anybody here. I am just fishing for what public opinion may be for dealing with this type of thing.
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>>Evan Stahl Reptiles
>>www.evanstahl.com
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Telling me that "buying a visual" is the best way to go is not a solution to the situation that I posted.
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

Evans,
i wasn't replying to you directly...but making a response for all to read......

why do you take things so personal????? it seems like this anytime someone replies to something something you wrote that you do not like.....

Pitoon

>>Telling me that "buying a visual" is the best way to go is not a solution to the situation that I posted.
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>>Evan Stahl Reptiles
>>www.evanstahl.com
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1) you responded directly to my post
2) you have a history of taking shots at me on this board

that is why
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

1) again wasn't replying to your post, but for all to read....not sure why you keep insisting.

2) there is no history - (a) i don't even know you (b) you have a real social issue (c) your history here and on other forums explains it all

3) have a great season

Pitoon

>>1) you responded directly to my post
>>2) you have a history of taking shots at me on this board
>>
>>that is why
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>>Evan Stahl Reptiles
>>www.evanstahl.com
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then why do you have to respond to every post I have ever made on this forum? I rarely post here but every time I do there you are arguing or antagonizing me.
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

Evan,
Have a great season!

Pitoon

>>then why do you have to respond to every post I have ever made on this forum? I rarely post here but every time I do there you are arguing or antagonizing me.
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>>Evan Stahl Reptiles
>>www.evanstahl.com
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In a perfect world we wouldn't have to worry about anything. So your saying never ever buy a het anything. To me you sound like your trying to start trouble. Andrew

''In a perfect world we wouldn't have to worry about anything. So your saying never ever buy a het anything. To me you sound like your trying to start trouble. Andrew''

Thats how it sounds to me also! Evan tell your parner/friend to call dude up and explain. if nothing happens - nothing happens. If dude makes it right -- well then it really is good to have such great AMERICAN brothers and sisters.

you both can take it how you want it... if you have a visual....you know what you have without having to wait years to prove it out.

if you don't have the cash then sure pick up hets.....not sure where you both both come about saying i'm trying to start trouble.

please enlighten me......since this is not a perfect world.

Pitoon

>>''In a perfect world we wouldn't have to worry about anything. So your saying never ever buy a het anything. To me you sound like your trying to start trouble. Andrew''
>>
>>
>>Thats how it sounds to me also! Evan tell your parner/friend to call dude up and explain. if nothing happens - nothing happens. If dude makes it right -- well then it really is good to have such great AMERICAN brothers and sisters.
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''(b) you have a real social issue (c) your history here and on other forums explains it all ''

That sounds to me like your trying to get a guys blood boiling.
Mine would be if you tried putting me out like that on an open forum. Mabe you should get to know the guy. He has been around a while unlike yourself . I have been here since 2005 and remember Evan from way back when ( and NO I do not know Evan on a personal level nor have I ever bought anything from him ) I have sen you around for not near that amount of time. and you chime in to try and make him feel foolish for stating his opinion?

I can say one thing. at least he has nutts to say what some of you wont.

i've been living in europe since 1997.....and have been messing with reptiles way before this site even came onboard. just because i've been on this forum for only several years...doesn't make me a rookie. …does it make you one…I would think not, right? Respect isn't given it's earned... He hasn’t earned my respect nor am i giving it to him, for many reasons……

i wrote what i wrote because it's the truth.....he has a history here and on many other forums/sites…..for which he is banned from. I know it, he knows it, and if you’ve been around you would know it too. If you read Mikebell’s post you would understand why…. People make honest replies or opinions on his posts on here and he takes them as an insult or threat…every time! If you don’t agree to what he thinks or says…then you are listed as an “enemy”….why….not sure really?

And I wasn’t trying to make him feel foolish. I was merely stating that if….one has a visual…one wouldn’t be in this position…..it wasn’t a reply to him but to all to read and understand what risks you have when buying hets. I have het lavender albinos….still waiting to prove out….will they? …I hope so for what I paid for them….if I had visuals..i wouldn’t have that hope…”will they prove out” over my shoulders.

And last but not least….you write…… “I can say one thing. at least he has nutts to say what some of you wont”…..…..any mature individual knows, there’s a time and place for everything, and when it’s best to keep your mouth closed….that may be one reason why he is banned from the “other” sites…….

I hope you have a great season!

Pitoon

>>''(b) you have a real social issue (c) your history here and on other forums explains it all ''
>>
>>
>>That sounds to me like your trying to get a guys blood boiling.
>> Mine would be if you tried putting me out like that on an open forum. Mabe you should get to know the guy. He has been around a while unlike yourself . I have been here since 2005 and remember Evan from way back when ( and NO I do not know Evan on a personal level nor have I ever bought anything from him ) I have sen you around for not near that amount of time. and you chime in to try and make him feel foolish for stating his opinion?
>>
>> I can say one thing. at least he has nutts to say what some of you wont.

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Thanks for clearing things up a bit. I was just under the impression you were trying to make dude upset and get him rolling.

Nice of you to stand up and clear things up.
Thanks again

I am assuming from your post that the animal in question was susposed to be a 100% het and not a 50% or 66% possible het?

You and your friend contacting the breeder to let him know that the snake in question did not prove out is the only thing to do. Worst case scenario he has one more person that he knows of that was unsatisfied with his snakes. In the best case scenario he tries to compensate for the mistake.

Too bad about that the snake did not prove out. I have a het that I am waiting to prove out and with how much of a PITA he has been it would be heartbreaking if he did not prove out.

Yes, it is supposed to be 100% het. E
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

I had this just happen to me recently. Although it was with a 'het' albino retic. In 2 years and 66 eggs I did not make any albinos(dad both years was a visual, also bought from this same breeder). I contacted the breeder and we worked out how much money was lost and I agreed to just take a credit line with him as he had some animals I liked anyways.

I have LOTS of het girls. I have missed on odds really bad and then had them prove out, others don't. I keep very good records. I have one het albino female that I produced, she was never bred to anything other than an albino. I have many of her het offspring, all have proven to be hets except for one. With several breedings to albinos she hasn't produced an albino. There should be absolutely no chance of her not being a het, but I can't see how the odds could be this far off. Things happen.

I used to breed Burmese on a commercial level, towards the end I started getting a few normal offspring out of clutches of albino to albino, from different females. Bob Clark mentioned that if an albino can pop out spontaneously, why not a normal.

I don't think you have a het. I have no idea if you were ripped off on purpose, accidentally or if there was some other bizarre explanation. Things happen.

Mike

In the case that the breeder could say this is a bizarre coincidence, would you agree that the purchaser still needs to be compensated for an investment that has, in my opinion, proven to be nothing more than a Normal?
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Who knows, probably so. I supply a photo ID, it not only protects the buyer but also the seller. I have seen many large breeders sell hets with no paperwork, it leaves the door wide open for speculation. In a way it lets the breeder off the hook, he can always claim that the animal might not be the one in question.

In these situations, everyone always assumes the buyer is telling the truth. Maybe the buyer is the crook. No offense against the original poster. A buyer could not get eggs and claim he did after having second thoughts about spending money and seeing prices come down. He could get eggs and hatch the visuals and still claim he didn't to get a refund. After selling animals online for years, I have heard so many times that payment has been sent or will be sent or why it hasn't been sent that you know you can't count on anything until it arrives. I would guess that almost 1/2 of purchases that people claim they are going to make don't happen for one reason or another, always on their end.

It is a sticky situation, that doesn't seem to have a clear cut answer.

Assuming your friend bought the het albino as a baby, waiting till 6 or so years later to contact the breeder saying it proved out not to be a het is a bit unrealistic. Whether the breeder made an honest mistake or intentionally ripped off your friend, its rather impossible to prove either way at this point in time. What your friend should have done is contacted the breeder after the first clutch of no visible's, especially when he was breeding het to visual morph. Or at the very least, after the second clutch.

this doesn't mean you can't attempt to contact the breeder or have your friend contact them and see what the breeder says. He may offer some compensation or not, but either way he can't really be held at fault, as there is no way to really prove if he sent the wrong animal, intentionally sold a normal as a het or what. If the breeder is still in business and others who deal with him had no problems now or in the past, I would err on saying it was a mistake and not intentional.
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PHLdyPayne

Again, I have lost nothing and am not looking for compensation. What I am trying to establish is what you guys think should be done about the fact that a major name in this business committed a fraudulent transaction, and it is not his first. He still has a good name and reputation to the general public because nobody ever comes forward with these situations. That is really what I want to know. What should be done about it. Why should somebody be allowed to keep doing this just because they have kind of a bs celebrity status in this industry?
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

Unless I missed it in the original post, you never mentioned that there was a history of bad deals. Did your friend ever try to get compensation? After the first year the breeder might have swapped the animal for another, or something.

Also, as far as buying a visual, I like hets. A het is usually 1/3 or less the price of a visual and produce 1/2 what a visual would. There is more bang for your buck.

Have your friend contact the breeder and let us know what happens. If you don't get satisfaction, tell your story in the appropriate place with names and facts, let others decide if they want to deal with them or not. This seems to be your only option. If there is a pattern, others might chime in with their problems.

There is not one person that people refer to as a "big" breeder that I have not heard negative things about in my time in this business. Selling wild caught as captive bred, selling mis-sexed animals, selling hets that do not prove out, selling sick animals, selling animals on consignment and not paying for them, buying animals on credit and not paying for them, etc, etc..
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

I went back and re-read both posts. You never mentioned in the first post that there was a history of this with this breeder. Then in a later post you said it is not his first and that no one speaks up. That is what I referred to by saying you added to the story.

Your friend should have tried to protect himself by getting picture paperwork when buying a het. I know it isn't fool proof but it helps. Your friend should have contacted the breeder a lot sooner. He might have corrected the problem. From what I can tell, he has never even heard that there was a problem. Contact the breeder now, or better yet you should have contacted him before posting on KS. And, like I said before, if you don't get any satisfaction, complain with names and facts where it is appropriate. The reptile community has to police itself. I don't think you will ever get monetary compensation for lost income. These are the only options that I can think of. If you post this same question on another forum, I'm sure someone will tell you to go to the next reptile show and beat the hell out of the breeder. That isn't what I would suggest though.

For the third time, I am not looking for money back from the breeder. I am not out any money from that breeder. Why would I go to him before I posted this when I have nothing to say to him? I bought nothing from him. I may shoot him an email, that will be about it though. My friend was afraid if he posted his situation people would do exactly what they have a history or doing in this business. Siding with the big name over the unknown and keep on kissing his #@$ while they bash him and label him a liar. I have watched it happne on that other site for over a decade.
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

If you knew all the answers, why are you writing?

You asked the question and were offered solutions and/or advice. None of which you appreciated. Most of your replies are nasty and uncalled for, you have not advanced your cause. Perhaps you should sit down with a third party and re-read all of this, maybe they can convince you that you are being argumentative.

Mike,
good to see i'm not the only one to see this...over and over and over......

Pitoon

>>If you knew all the answers, why are you writing?
>>
>>You asked the question and were offered solutions and/or advice. None of which you appreciated. Most of your replies are nasty and uncalled for, you have not advanced your cause. Perhaps you should sit down with a third party and re-read all of this, maybe they can convince you that you are being argumentative.
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Not at all, I just keep trying to explain to people who keep posting it that I do not feel that I am due any compensation. I did not pay the big ticket for the animal and I was not garenteed anything.
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

Lot's of things could have happened but in the end what was bought was not what was received. IMHO your friend would be owed a refund of the original purchase price, nothing more nothing less. I would not expect him to be compensated for time anymore than I would expect the original seller to be given all funds from the animals sold from that female.

There are plenty of big name 'breeders' who resell animals they buy wholesale along with their own stock. I am guessing from time to time they unknowingly buy fake hets and resell them. That doesn't mean that they are given a free pass since they didn't know. As soon as they offered the animal for sale they attached there name to it and should take full responsibility there after.

Of course money makes people do funny things....

See ya' in Pittsburgh..... Let's go Pens!!

5 clutches of spider x normal with no spiders so anything is possible. And yes I have a small enough collection that I'd know if a different male was put in. Now as far as your animal goes, you really don't have a stake in getting compensated as no breeder would take the word of a "a friend bought from you and didn't mix things up, I want money back". What I've found is that you have less of a chance getting a dud het from buying from small to med size breeders that don't have dozens of employees to mess things up.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I never said that I wanted any compensation for myself.
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

You can try divuldging the offenders name only in cryptic Pig Latin. This way others can be for-warned, however, the persons name will not be unfairly smeared just in case of the off possibily you would be attempting to settle some personal vendetta...its perfect and covers all bases..

If your friend didn't contact the breeder on his clutches and make the breeder aware of the issue then you should probably get in touch with the breeder and work something out with him yourself. I didn't really read through all the posts so I don't think you mentioned how many offspring your friend produced and how many you did but you can't really use your friends results as your "proof" since you didn't breed them, but you can certainly use his results as a reason to drop a precautionary email to the breeder and you might be able to work something out with them that if you don't produce a visual in x amount of eggs ...
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Tosha
JET Pythons
The Blog
nihil facimus sed id bene facimus

I contacted the breeder and made him aware of the situation. I am waiting to see what you says after our first exchange of emails. What I want is really for him to do something for my friend who spent some good money with this guy and eventually got out of keeping and breeding reptiles at least partly due to be ripped off on this animal.
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

Is a hard one to say at this point. I know someone who had 24 eggs from DH caramel ghost x DH caramel ghost with only 1 visual. I also know someone who got nothing from het albinos 3 seasons in a row and then got two albinos from the same breeding in the fourth season. Same guy with the same het albino male to a different het albino female...nothing first two seasons then 1 albino the third season and none again the fourth season.

Maybe just bad odds so far for your buddy. Hope he hits this season.
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

Hey Matt, I appreciate it but I think visual x het for 18 and now 24 eggs is a big sampling. The breeder even told me that he thought that was more than enough babies to say it was not a het but predictably he is pulling the "maybe somebody switched the animals" routine.
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

What I want your honest answer on is: With 24 eggs on the ground, all from albino x "het" there is almost non existent odds that her clutches have just been misses and that she is in fact not at all a het albino.

To be fair we must examine the "odds" of producing no albinos in your scenario with 24 eggs. If the animal is properly labelled there are two possible results. Albino or not. Thus to calculate the "odds" we say that there are "1 in 2^24 (two to the 24th power)" odds. The mathematical answer is 1 in 16,777,216 would a breeding as you describe make zero albinos in 24 eggs. Curiously, the reverse is also true. The odds are the same to get all albinos! When does one say they got cheated?

I am willing to bet there is one person reading this forum that can truthfully claim to have done this with a breeding similar to yours. If it can happen to them, it can happen to you.

Add another year of six babies. 2^30 is 1,073,741,824. Yeah, thats less than one in a BILLION. You make the call as to when to say it is "impossible". Oddly enough, it is never impossible. The more eggs we get the less probable it is. A very diferrent scenario.
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