Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have seen a few old advertisements for red phase albino western hognoses and the pictures of the ones where they are not very red they say:

The red phase gets better as the hog gets older

I'm wondering if this is true or if this is just wishful thinking by the seller?
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

CHECK OUT MY NEW KENYAN SAND BOA BLOG
http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

I got these little worms back in August from Brad Chambers... They were not nearly as red as they are now when I got them... They were beautiful at 6 gram but they are far more beautiful now...
So depending on the line, they do in fact get better as they get bigger...

The female is 80 grams and the male is at 62 grams...

Here are some updated photos I took today...

And the male...

One thing you have to understand is that the red phase in hognose is a line trait and not a Mendelian trait such as recessive genes (ie albino's, axanthics, pink pastels, hypo/T+). This means that if you take a red phase albino and breed it to a normal phenotype hog, while they may be het for albino, they won't be het for that red color. They might exhibit it, they might carry some genes for it, but you will more than likely have to inbreed your line a few generations to bring out that red coloration as there are no guarantees with line traits.

I only mention this because there are some sellers that either by accident or intentionally list some of their hogs as het red albino or something along those lines. It's either red or it isn't regardless of it being het for albino. Again, it might carry genes for that red trait and breeding it to a red phenotype might produce red offspring but don't expect to breed 2 "het red albino"'s and get any reds out of it. It's possible, but not probable.

In regards to your concern over advertised reds not looking all that red, or the expectation about color changes, remember that not every picture is all that representative of what the animal looks like in person as most people aren't professional photographers and/or they use basic commercial cameras which don't always bring out the colors correctly. It's also possible that said animals will undergo several different coloration changes. I always like to refer people to my thread about the coloration changes in my axanthics here to show just how drastic some of these color changes can be.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

We have what is called high orange or nuclears in the Kenyan Sand Boa world which is a similiar line bred trait to the reds.

However, in my experience with Kenyans after a couple sheds, what you see is what you get, if anything as they age their color softens.

So, when I read some advertisements claiming they will get redder, I was a bit skeptical.

That black and white (Axan) forum showing the drastic change is crazy.

I guess my next question than is:

Are most reds, pretty red when they are born?
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

CHECK OUT MY NEW KENYAN SAND BOA BLOG
http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

So, when I read some advertisements claiming they will get redder, I was a bit skeptical.

It's been my experience that many of the natural phenotypic hogs typically undergo very little in color changes as they mature. But some of my morphs, such as the Axanthics I showed as well as my Pink Pastels and Albinos have all changed in some degree or other. Our Pink Pastels washed out quite a bit compared to what they originally looked like. They had quite a bit of red when they were neonates which has mostly faded as they have aged. This doesn't mean that this happens with all animals with red coloration, I've just noticed it noticeably in our PPA's.

That black and white (Axan) forum showing the drastic change is crazy.

What is ironic is that after a few more sheds, that female darkened back up. She's not as dark as she was when we first got her, but she's definitely not as white as that either anymore.

I guess my next question than is:

Are most reds, pretty red when they are born?

I will have to refer you to my peers as I do not currently have any reds in my collection and even if I did, I'm red/green colorblind, so I have a difficult time distinguishing some of these so-called red animals, especially from some of these photographs. But I am able to see red coloration to a degree and there are some very good pictures of hatchlings that show a very exhibitive amount of red. So, yes, there are some very beautiful red hatchlings that do occur.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Here is the pair above when I first got them...
As you can see there is a HUGE difference... They got much more redder and their background color lightened up...

Female

Male

All of the reds I've hatched out (not many, only 2 clutches) have been red from the start. Here is a nice male from 09.

Dan Eby

Nice red Dan,your Mexican is doing just fine.

Thanks again

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Brent Bumgardner
bwbumgardner@aol.com
703.431.1776
Superconda Website

Thanks Brent, glad to hear it!

Dan Eby

Now that's an excellent example of what a red hog should look like!

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Yea, he is pretty nice! Thanks!

Dan Eby

It can also be just a sales tactic. After a few years that your snake doesn't color up what could you do to the seller at that point? A million excuses can be made by them after that long. Also be leary of a seller if they won't show you them in person. Just a few warning signs I've noticed.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

I read this post and I can't comment about Red Albinos but I can share my breeding results with my own line of Red hogs.
The color does get better as they mature.
Right out of the egg some of them look normal.
Not all of them mature into a beautiful Red.
Do the ones that remain normal looking carry the genetics to develop lots of red?
When these are bred will they produce Reds?
I plan to do some test breedings this year with 1 or 2 males that I held back so I can answer those questions.

As far as the "line breeding" comments, check my results below.

Red x Red, related snakes, produced all Reds with two distinct looks.

Red x Green, unrelatated snakes, produced Reds and a very cool looking snake that has red blotches on a green background.

Albino x Red, unrelated snakes, produced Reds but also produced some offspring that never developed red.

Red x Yellow, unrelated snakes, produced Reds. These had the most amount of red right out of the egg. They continue to get better and better as they mature.

As you can see, I have not had to line breed / breed related snakes to produce more Reds. Once the trait was locked in I have been able to outcross and get some very good results.
Have a look for yourself. Look in the folders labeled '08 Western Hognose and '09 Western Hognose.

Link

Thanks everybody for your input.

How far along are everybodies 'reds' eggs?

When these guys are born do you feed them immediately or do you wait for first shed? How long after birth before they start feeding?

I keep reading unscented pinks....what do you have to scent them with (frog smell?)? Where do you purchase this scent spray? Is it necessary or will most eat a pinkie without scent at birth?
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

CHECK OUT MY NEW KENYAN SAND BOA BLOG
http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

When these guys are born do you feed them immediately or do you wait for first shed? How long after birth before they start feeding?

Their care is like typical colubrids, food is offered after their first shed which is typically 6-10 days after hatching.

I keep reading unscented pinks....what do you have to scent them with (frog smell?)?

Most Western Hognose should accept unscented pinkies but not all will. You cannot scent with just any type of frog or toad. I believe that Spade-Foot frogs will work as will Woodhouse Toads. Scenting should be used as a last resort. If you search this forum, you will find alternative methods used for scenting as well.

Where do you purchase this scent spray?

To the best of my knowledge, there is no product such as this although there used to be one for lizard scenting but I believe that's been unavailable for quite some time. If you opt to use the proper frogs or toads, then you will most likely have to acquire live or frozen ones.

Is it necessary or will most eat a pinkie without scent at birth?

Most should eat pinkies without having to scent. However, sometimes feeding live pinkies will help get them excited if F/T won't. I have a couple that show no interest in F/T as they will only take something that is alive and no, trying to imitate movement by using hemostats unfortunately does not work with these guys. They apparently know the difference between something alive and moving versus a "zombie" mouse.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

I have a similar experience with "Zombie Pinkies". My female red HATES and I mean hates F/T pinks. She does not even tolerate them near her. As soon as I drop a live pink in front of her she mauls it like it was going to get away.

In contrast my male red doesn't care what you put in front of him. He will literally eat out of my hand. I found out by accident that I can hold him and just hold a F/T in front of him and he opens his mouth and waits for me to put it in.

It all depends on the snake's personality.

As far as color. My male has gotten slightly more red since I got him. My female on the other hand has changed more significantly. She has a darker coloration but the more she sheds the more her red highlights start to come out.

P.S. Just fyi both my hogs are Red Het. Albinos born in 09
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Thomas M. Marcy
--------------------------
Madison, AL
Computer Scientist
Hognose Enthusiast

A couple of things I want to add...

With "line bred" or polygenic traits, if the line is strong enough they will indeed act recessive or dominant in most cases...

Also in the case of "zombie pinkies" (Awesome term by the way) I have found that if you place a problem feeder in a tub with the mouse and take some type of battery operated "mini massager" LOL, and tape it to the side of the bin, the vibration moves the pinkie in a much more natural looking way... I have gotten MANY non F/T eaters to take F/T this way... I could not use my ex-girls massager because it would have shook the gut out of any snake... LOL

Are kidding me! I rolled on the floor laughing!!!!

I am going to refrain from any retort. But with much difficulty.
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

CHECK OUT MY NEW KENYAN SAND BOA BLOG
http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/