Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, I got a new boa from one of the larger breeders out there. The animal appears healthy and, geneticly speaking, is what I ordered.. However, this is the meanest boa I have seen in a very long time and the meanest I ever owned. I cant even go into the my snake room without him lashing at the glass. And I def cant take him out of its cage without him biting and peeing on my floor. All my boas are puppy tame and very easy to work with. I have just enough animals to maintain by myself. I may not have the time to calm this mad man down. Id hate to have to send him back, but I had no idea I was getting a very aggressive animal. Im looking for some advise, what would you do. Send him back??

I don't know of any large scale breeder that has time to handle each snake to keep them tame. I also don't know of many that would take a return based on an animal being tame or not. You could ask, but typically you are paying for the genetics, not a tame pet.

Good news is that aggressive snakes tend to be better eaters and breeders.

I guess I am not really a large scale breeder, but I would never sell an aggressive snake without disclosing it, and I would never breed an aggressive snake, like I do not think people should breed aggressive dogs. Sometimes a snake might get scared during shipping, but should calm down with only minutes of holding. I do not think that aggressive snakes are better eaters or breeders. However, I have to say, I am only breeding Colombians, and with some of the true red-tails, testy temperament is part of what is expected with some of the more high strung snakes.

How long have you had him?
I just got 4 last week and 3 were ok and sweet the 4th
was satan him self but after about 5 days hes not the terror
i got that first day he still huffs and puffs on occasion
but most part hes settling in good. You might just have to give him some time, is there a poss that hes cage aggressive? I have one of those too lol

What kind of boa is it?
How long have you had it?
Some species are more aggressive then others. Like someone said, you are buying the genetics. I don't know of anyone who would take the boa back based on what you claim. As a buyer, you should ask as many questions about a snake before you buy it. If you didn't ask the question, how is it's attitude, or something along those lines, it's on you. If you just got it then let it settle in. If you have had it for a while, you can try working with it by handeling it regularly to try to tame it. Most breeders don't handle their babies, they just don't have the time. For example, if someone produces 200 babies (that is a low number by the way) and spends 5 minutes a day with each one, that is 1000 minutes a day, there is only 1440 minutes in a day, so it just can't happen. So a lot of times you see a picture of an animal for sale and that could be the only time it got handled, except for maybe cage cleaning. Keep us posted.

I disagree with this statement:

"If you didn't ask the question, how is it's attitude, or something along those lines, it's on you."

I think it's the seller responsibility to provide full disclosure. It's like buying a used car and the dealer neglected to mention that the car was salvaged. --- "Well you didn't ask if it was salvaged so, it's on you".

I don't care how big a breeder is or how much time he/she has to spend with their animals, if they don't know what they're selling, maybe they're a little too big. And that's not somebody I want to deal with.

I do, however, agree that the OP is going to have a difficult time getting a refund for the reasons mentioned. You're more than likely stuck with that boa or will need to sell it to get your money back. Just be sure and let the next buyer know about it's attitude.

.
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Jason Gonzalez

reMeditatedMorphs@yahoo.com" target="_blank">PreMeditatedMorphs@yahoo.com

There are certain risks involved when buying over the internet. This is one of them. The seller may not even know the temperment of the snake in question. Some species are more aggressive then others. Maybe he bought an animal that is a more aggressive species and he didn't do his homework before buying. If you don't want to be surprised by the animal you buy, then don't buy over the internet. I don't think the seller should do anything.

I agree with those that have posted to let him acclimate to a new environment (this is assuming you haven't had him long).

I got a year old boa last year that was the meanest thing I've ever seen when he first arrived. And let me tell you, he stuck his tub 4 times in a row just from me walking past it that he gave himself a concussion and I had to take him to an emergency clinic (he's fine now, no ill effects from the event). After a few months of leaving him be other than to feed and clean up pooh, he calmed right down and is great.

I would recommend putting something around his tank so that he can't see out. This might give him a chance to calm down and not react every time you walk by (that's what I did with the boa above). I good hide too, one that would fit him snug, might help.

Best wishes with him. I hope he works out.
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
3.0 Crazy Dogs and 2.0 cats
Some Tropical Fish
...........and growing!

What kind of boa did you get? Take an unwashed old t-shirt that you have worn. Cut a strip and put it around the boa's hide. The snake will soon associate your scent with the familiar safety of his cage. I swear by this and do it with every new snake. My BCCs are very tame along with blood pythons and retics but they did not start out that way. Let the snake settle in and get a few meals in him. The difficult ones take longer to acclimate. Snakes bite for only two reasons-to eat or they are scared. The peeing is a strong sign of defensive behavior. You can also cover the front of the cage and partially uncover it in sections every few days. Give him time and take him out with a hook. Work slowly, move slowly and let him crawl off the hook to you. Best of luck and what this snake needs is time and patience. Bill
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...three years ago it was just another snake cult...
The Retic is King.
Anacondas-the other Dark Side.
Afrocks-the dark side of the Dark Side.

I couldn't tell based on your post how old it is.

If it is a baby it CAN be tamed down. You just need to be
patient and put the hours in. Burmese pythons and anacondas
can be tamed down with effort and patience. Boas are pussy cats
compared to them.

Within 2 weeks you should be able to tame it down if you handle
it for about an hour a day. Use both hands, always distract it
with one hand & use the other one to take it out. You're
probably going to get bit. I have managed to tame down boas
that were spitting mad without even getting bit.

They don't really want to bite you, they are afraid and just
want to be left alone. Usually they are content hissing and
striking air. Hold it at arms length & move very slowly or not at
all. Hold it while you're watching TV at arms length.

Ok, I just got him in 2 days ago.. Ys i know I am leaving him alone. Letting him relax in his new cage. He is a 08 male morph.. I did not ask the breeder about his temperment because I assumed I was buying top quality. Whenever I bought from small breeders and Im not 100% satisfied, im always told that I should have bought from a top breeder and bought quality. So when I was told this animal was flawless by a top quality breeder, i assumed he was tame or at least handleable.. I guess I was way wrong. As of today, i plan on working with him. Trying to calm him down. I know the tricks, its just that i dont want to have to clean my floor and put bandaids on my arm every time i clean his cage. Thats not why I paid a premium price on a premium animal.

You purchased from a top quality breeder for a top quality unquestionable genetic animal that is reliably feeding and has no illness that the breeder is aware of. You bought the best of the best, not the tamest of the tame. I have to agree, its on you and temperament is not an indicator of genetic quality or health that is being sold to you.

What kind of morph is it?

The animal has 2 differnt co dom traits and is het for a recessive trait. But he really likes to bite. I mean, really likes to bite. I am willing to work with him, but if he doesnt respond within 2 weeks or so, I will be unhappy with this purchase.

Have you contacted the seller??

You really need to let the seller know what's going on. Perhaps the snake was more tame before it was shipped. Most breeders will let you know if a snake is extremely aggressive. It could be that shipping stressed him out.

He's still a young animal. Don't know is size, because you didn't say. You said he's 2 Co-dominant morphs and 1 recessive morph, but you didn't say if he was as Centeral American, Colombian, Suriman, ect..

Colombians tame down pretty easy, with time. Others may not tame down as quickly.

All of them can be tamed down considerably. It's just a matter of time.

Is it a Central American morph?

I read your other post that the snake was in your lap sleeping, but I feel I need to comment on your statement that if the boa doesn't calm down in 2 weeks, you'll be unhappy with your purchase.

My new arrivals don't even get handled until they're out of quarantine which could be 3-6 or more months!

During their quarantine period, they get checked on twice per day for a few seconds to see if their cage is dirty, to check for dead mites (thankfully I haven't seen a mite in YEARS), visual inspection for obvious health problems, over-bloating from a meal, etc.

Honestly, that 90-180 day period is usually enough time for that boa to become comfortable with my presence (that's 180-360 exposures to me that were non-confrontational and minimally stressful - plus the few times that I need to actually handle the animal to clean the cage). We're talking very small baby steps here, but it makes the difference. AND, I'm including imports in this.

I'm not saying any of this to be mean. I'm saying it so that hopefully you'll realize that your expectations might be a little unrealistic.

Here's an excerpt from my caresheet on my website:

As mentioned previously, I only handle my boas after the obvious signs of the prior meal have subsided. My method for getting boas out of cages may differ from others, but my boas never bite me so it works for me!

As a rule, I do not handle my boas until they are out of their quarantine period except to remove them to clean. I allow them to acclimate completely to my environment. Despite what you’ll see in classified ads, there is no such thing as a tame boa. There is such thing as a boa that is more, or less inclined to be defensive. Defensive behavior can and does include biting. More importantly, there is such a thing as an acclimated boa, but that acclimation period needs to be reestablished every time there is a drastic change in the life of your boa.

One example I can think of that’s drastic is removing a boa from it’s home that it has acclimated to, stuffing it into a bag, packaging it into a box, sealing it up, shipping it across country on several different flights while going on countless conveyor belts and through numerous hands, drops, and kicks, being stuck on a vibrating delivery truck, bounced around while heading to your door and then handed to you!

If that were me, I’d need some time to get rid of the desire to rip off the face of the next thing that looks at me! So, for the sake of your boa, please allow it to acclimate for a few months before initiating your handling sessions. Remember, we eat 3-5 meals per day; boas eat 3-5 meals in 1-2 months. Their timetable isn’t the same as ours.

Now that your boa has acclimated (generally coincides well with the quarantine period), on to the human introduction!

Some people disagree, but I HIGHLY recommend an appropriately sized snake hook for use with all of your boas. At a minimum, I use it to alert the boa to my presence. A slight touch on the back or side of the boa is sometimes all it takes for me to feel comfortable reaching in and picking them up. Other times, I’ll use the hook to move their head away from the rest of their body while I reach in to pick them up. Still other times, I’ll use the hook to pick up a portion of their body and I’ll use my hand to control the other. Worst case scenario is that I use the hook to move the head away, then I use it to lift a little of the back half of the boa so I can slide my hand underneath, then I’ll use the hook under the front third of the boa to control the rest of its body. In my opinion, the most important thing in handling your boa is consistency and slow deliberate movements that don’t startle them.

I have recently stopped using hooks completely in favor of using puncture resistant gloves from HexArmor. I normally only need one glove as I use it to either put my hand on top of the head of the boa, or as a "shield" to keep them from biting me if they strike. Interestingly, since I began using the gloves, it seems like my boas are less apprehensive about being picked up. Perhaps it's my confidence and lack of hesitation. I've found that once I pick up my boas, I no longer need the glove and free-handle them easily.

I recommend short intervals of handling that gradually increase to your desired length of time and frequency. If you notice behavior from your boa that seems out of the norm like hiding more often and not cruising the cage, or something severe like refusal to eat or regurgitation, cut back or eliminate handling time temporarily.
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

always give it to me i have a bunch of pissy ones but i buy for genetics not on if its tame or not thats just the risks you take when buying ITS A SNAKE they do tend to bite

Some of my nicest, highest quality animals came to me with major attitudes. The big time breeders especially have little time to work with and tame down all of their animals. I would never fault a breeder for selling and sending off and aggressive baby.

I've always been able to tame down young and highly aggressive boas within a week or two. And most of the time, they never get a chance to bite me. It doesn't take a whole lot.. just be gentle, introduce him to your presence slowly.. a little at a time. Only takes a few minutes each day. Start with your smell (placing a dirty t-[bleep] you've worn in his cage). Get him used to a snake hook, get him used to your hand being placed in his cage but not touching or threatening him. Move on to lifting him with the hook and setting him in your hand. Just a couple minutes each day.. one step at a time. Be persistent and respectful. No fast movement. Learn his body language.. try to avoid doing something that would trigger a strike. He's young and he'll figure you out quickly! Good luck.

>>Some of my nicest, highest quality animals came to me with major attitudes. The big time breeders especially have little time to work with and tame down all of their animals. I would never fault a breeder for selling and sending off and aggressive baby.
>>
>>I've always been able to tame down young and highly aggressive boas within a week or two. And most of the time, they never get a chance to bite me. It doesn't take a whole lot.. just be gentle, introduce him to your presence slowly.. a little at a time. Only takes a few minutes each day. Start with your smell (placing a dirty t-[bleep] you've worn in his cage). Get him used to a snake hook, get him used to your hand being placed in his cage but not touching or threatening him. Move on to lifting him with the hook and setting him in your hand. Just a couple minutes each day.. one step at a time. Be persistent and respectful. No fast movement. Learn his body language.. try to avoid doing something that would trigger a strike. He's young and he'll figure you out quickly! Good luck.
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

np

Excellent advice!

Pitoon you deserve 100% money back if the snake doesn't calm down in a few weeks. To those who imply most people don't care about temperment are wrong, with most people it's a deal breaker. To those who imply this breeder didn't know this snake was agressive are wrong regardless of how many millions of boas the breeder has. Get your money back no questions ask especially since you paid top dollar from a world class breeder. Andrew

this snake bite me a bunch of times but is now sleeping in my lap and i love him.. You guy were right that it only takes time for the animal to relax.. I got a nice male

I do not believe that disposition can be guaranteed.

I have bought and sold animals that were tame and animals that were defensive (notice I didn't say aggressive) that got a whole new attitude immediately upon arrival. Some stayed that way, some didn't. Most boas end up calm if their INDIVIDUAL needs are met. If I knew other ways to emphasize the word "individual" in the prior sentence, I would have!

I believe that temperament should be discussed with the buyer (if it matters and if it's known), but it's the buyers responsibility to ask. If you don't know to ask, you don't have enough experience with boas. Also, the buyer should have no expectations that the temperament will be the same once the animal arrives and acclimates to its new surroundings. It usually is, but sometimes it's not. And it may not be the sellers fault. Maybe it's the buyers.

Having said that, we all want animals that are easy to work with and thankfully the majority of boas that are housed in enclosures that minimize stress, are not over or under fed, and are cared for and handled by knowledgeable, calm owners are generally easy going animals.

As for the statement that animals that are "aggressive" are better eaters. I've found the opposite. They like to strike and hiss a lot and they get SO pissed that they just sit there and strike and hiss at their food. Once they calm down, they become better eaters.

I think there are a lot of "wives tales" in boa keeping. Things like aggressive boas are better eaters and feeders, "fatter is better", if it looks healthy and came from a reputable person - quarantine is unnecessary, a boa should be fed as much as it will eat, etc., all qualify as BS wives tales. A fat, defensive, non-quarantined, garbage disposal of a boa would have no place in my collection or breeding projects. Yeah... I said it! lol

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

Is someone says, "100% satisfaction guarantee". well then I may not be 100% satisfied.

You never did mention if you contacted the seller or not.

How can a seller possibly make sure you're 100% satified if they're not aware there's a problem?!?!?!?!?!?!?! That really doesn't make sense.

It seems to you you have unrealistic expectations if you think 100% satisfaction includes "temperament".
"NOBODY" can garantee the temperament of "ANY" animal. Sometimes a snake might be fine with one person and mean and like to bite with another person. So, temperament is generally something that has to be "worked on".

I understand.. Either way I decieded Im gonna keep him and work with him.. Even thou I have bit marks all over both hands and arms, lol... I still think him being nasty should have been disclosed thou.. I def would have told a buyer if I was selling him. But to each his own i guess.. Either way I am keeping him.....

that maybe he was not at all defensive while in the care of the seller?
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

I was told that he was barely ever handled. And that the snake did not want to go into the shipping bag and was biting and agressive at that time..

but this post inspired me.

The fact that after only two days you were considering trying to return the animal based on it not having settled down blows my mind. I hope you take some of the great advise that has been provided you.

Good luck,

Kevin

Yes I will take some of the very good advise given, that was exactly what I was looking for with this original post. Im not exactly sure why you were 'blown away' by me asking for advise after being surprized for getting an extremely aggressive animal that was never disclosed(by a bigger name breeder)for having a bad disposition. I almost feel as if a few of you guys jumped on my for no reason. like I said, I am gonna keep him and try to work with him. I just never had a boa that was this aggressive as all my other animals are puppy tame. I consider all my animals my 'pets'. They are not just breeders to me like they are to alot of other ppl. I enjoy looking at them and working with them. But wish me luck with my new 'agressive' pet. Hopefully, my hands and arms dont get too many more teeth marks on them, lol...

Pitoon you were not in the wrong at all and yes a guarantee also includes temperament. Andrew

The difference of opinion here is a direct result of the individual keeper's philosophy on the animals they personally keep. Some keepers view "said reptile" as a "pet" the connotations of the word pet are also subject to their personal philosophy. My wife and I have a few pets here (one of which is a large older Colombian B.c.i.), I personally view these animals as wild animals which happen to have amazingly tolerant dispositions a surprisingly large portion of the time. I think that makes people like me pre-disposed towards a willingness to try and figure out why an "aggresive" snake is acting that way (aggression from snakes towards people is without failing almost always a defensive measure), then tackling what I am doing which may be encouraging the behavior, or at the least not helping the animal over-come it's fear. If you acquired the boa with the mind-set that you are getting a tame calm pet, and that tame calm pets, come in as tame calm pets, then you are going to have to re-consider your approach to increase the probability of having an effective change in the animal's demeanor. I hate to say it but in a situation like this, lose the hook, lose the fear of being bitten and show the animal you're not afraid of it, and you're not going to hurt it- and you'll be amazed at how quickly it's demeanor will change.

Good luck with your new pet, and I would personally disagree that there is a set liability or lack of a liability for the seller. It would be solely up to the seller to determine what he/she feels is right in this situation. There is no way to have an "industry norm" on a topic like this. I would suggest working with the animal, you and your animal have things to gain from the process.

Take care,
Jordan

www.CaliforniaBreedersUnion.com

Great advice Jordan!

that's how it is here.... that's the reason I never post anymore..
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All about the U!!!!

I didn't go back and re-read the comments before posting this, but I have read them all over the past several days. I don't feel like anyone jumped on you. I think people just expressed what they were thinking about the situation. No one called you names.

The most controversial topic in this thread was whether immediate arrival/ pre-acclimation temperament was:
1) a legitimate cause for a person to be dissatisfied with a purchase
2) something that should be or could be "guaranteed"
3) grounds for a refund

I'm not saying this is the case, but sometimes people have a hard time seeing the whole picture, when they're standing in the middle of it.

Some folks on this forum feel that the seller should proactively bring up the temperament of a given animal. Some feel the buyer should ask about it. Some don't care either way.

I feel that since you're a buyer who values temperament, you should have asked about it prior to sending money to the seller (just like you would about genetics, feeding habits, etc.). I also feel that the animal should have been allowed to acclimate to its new surroundings before handling was attempted. Additionally, every attempt to help the animal feel secure should have been, and should continue to be made throughout the quarantine process. It's important to cater to the boa, not the other way around. My experience tells me that if a boa is given ample time to acclimate and is repeatedly exposed to a persons presence with good results, their disposition is GREATLY improved over time.

All in all, don't get upset. I don't think anyone meant to jump on you. I think (and I could be wrong - it's just my opinion) that what you're perceiving as exasperation is really disbelief from folks who have years and years of experience and were willing to provide feedback.

Keep in mind on all forums, the written word is difficult to interpret because emotion, sarcasm, voice inflection, etc. are all lost. Probably a good general rule when using forums for everyone to follow is that saying that husbands say to their wives:

"If I said something that could be taken two ways, and one upsets you, I meant it to be taken the other way"

Good luck with the animal. I do recommend taking some of the advice offered in this thread (as you've stated you will). Additionally, now you know to always ask about disposition so you've learned something from this! And that makes it all worth it, right? Even the blood! (or not, lol)

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

Yea Jon, I agree with your post 100%... Im just letting him be byhimself for the next few days. I will offer him a small snack in a couple of days. I had to clean his cage real quick today and he tryed biting me a few times, but at least he didnt connect. I been around boas and pythons for years and have know how to work with them well. So hopefully I can calm him down in the comming months.