Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Everytime I go to one of the big chain pet stores to buy dog food, I always peruse the reptiles, which are typically ball pythons and cornsnakes.

3 yrs ago, I'd see normal, regular amel, anery and maybe snow corns.

Nowadays, I'm seeing all manner of corn morphs lumped in one price. Just yesterday I saw a super high white amel "reverse Okeetee" and what looks like a creamsicle in the "Amelanistic Cornsnake" cage. At another store, there was a lavender corn and a motley snow in the "Cornsnake - Various colors" cage.

Neat thing to see some variety in even these kinds of stores.

BTW, there was a baby Pacific gophersnake in the gartersnake cage one day I was there. I bought the "thicker gartersnake" for $15.
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Mark

The big chains are offering more of the unusual corn morphs. Unfortunately, even the newer morphs have gone way down in price and the big chains are competetively priced with the breeders. Especially since there is no shipping costs. I have seen some baby corns that appeared to be lavenders. I am not 100% sure on some of these morphs and I know the petshop folks there wouldnt know AT ALL. So, I have steered away from any purchases LOL!! However, even I would have snagged the "thick garter" for 15 bucks LOL!! That was a great find!!

The "thick" Garter Snake was a real steal at $15!..LMAO!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

This is a result of more and more breeders wholesaling lots of various morphs on the market. It could be due to slow sales at shows and on the internet. Morphs that would have sold for a higher price than a normal or an amel have been sold along with the less expensive animals for the same price. Now they are trickling onto retailers' shelves. We owe it to ourselves as well as our animals to breed responsibly lest we will continue to see falling prices and snakes that end up in a place where they do not receive proper care.

. We owe it to ourselves as well as our animals to breed responsibly lest we will continue to see falling prices and snakes that end up in a place where they do not receive proper care.

I hate to be an ass here but I see statements like this all the time and they bug me.
Just because it is at a chain store it doesn't instantly mean it's not getting proper care. They're learning too. Some do a darn good job.
Or do you mean that people who BUY from chain stores don't know how to care for them?
I've bought from chain stores. Sometimes you see something that is just too hard to pass up. AND just because someone sells a snake at a show or through the internet, that sure doesn't mean they know any more then the chain store worker or chain store buyer.
Yes, we have seen bad conditions but there are a lot of us that have seen good conditions as well.
I just don't like to see all chain stores lumped together as bad and unable or unwilling to provide proper care.
or all chain store buyers lumped together as unknowledgable and unable or unwilling to provide proper care
or all show vendors lumped together as knowledgable and able and willing to provide proper care.
or all show buyers lumped together as knowledgable and able and willing to provide proper care.
It just doesn't work that way
sorry but that's how I see it.
Now, on the other part of it.
More breeders, less buyers, harder to get rid of snakes, they get wholesaled out, this will never stop, only increase.
Each season people look at what they might earn, what it might cost and what they should breed. There are some that rely on the wholesale animals to help tide them over for the individual sales. There some trying to make a living at this and they will continue to do whatever it takes to stay afloat.
There are some that are breeding to help pay expenses and allow them to continue to enjoy and learn. I know a lot of people who are cutting back on production but as some are cutting back, new owners are jumping in.
Add the crapy economy to that and you will begin to see every morph out there sold at Petland, PetCo, PetSmart or wherever.
I think we are heading towards a big drop in sales and prices.
Or should I say in the middle of said drop
People are going to have to figure out a way to sell snakes cheaper then the chain stores. A lot of prices ARE cheaper then chain store prices...Until You Add Shipping if via the internet.
AND a lot of people just don't like going to the shows. I noticed a tendency for some people to be rude at shows. They'll push you out of the way to get to a table in front of you. They'll step in front of you and interupt you while you are trying to make a buy or get information.
This is not everyone but anyone that's been to shows can not say they haven't experienced this.
I know this is bad but the next time you are at a show look around. We can be some rough/different looking characters. Some parents are simply nervous to be around us and to bring their children around us.
It's stereotyping and unfounded but that's simply the way people are. It's something that we are slowly over coming but it's there and a long long way from ending.
There are also a hell of a lot more chain stores then shows. The majority of cities do not have shows but you will be hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't have one of the chain stores near by.
The only true solution would be to only breed what is "pre-sold" but of course we know that wouldn't work or start doing like we do with dogs and cats...spay and neuter .....which is an obvious joke.
So, what I think I was trying to say is there simply isn't a lot we can do about it other then to try to adapt and do the best that WE can.
Human nature is to look out for number one so the idea of getting everyone to agree to do what some may feel is the right thing to do simply isn't going to happen.
sorry to rant and ramble..kind of got lost in there somewhere

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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Exactly how many chain stores have you visited around the country to see this change happening? Fact is most of the chain stores get thier animals from one or two sources who buy them from whomever they can get them from. SO, their is no telling how many diseases are running through the wholesalers stock. Sorry, but that is not a chance I want to take ever.

Secondly, you said it best, "we look out for number one, it is human nature", BUT, that is a discussion for another day, that is the whole problem, for the most part, we are not concerned with others well beings when we would all live much better lives if we did think of others before always acting.

I am not concerened with $15-$25 albinos and other low end morphs, but when I pay $500 for an animal because it is new to the world. Then in less that 2-3 years some jack butt sells his babies for $150 and the market is affectively crashed at that point. Guess the lesson is that I should not pay high dollars and should just stop working with snakes because there are too many people with no true economical sense that are in the hobby now.

If this offends anyone, then oh well.

dc

>>Exactly how many chain stores have you visited around the country to see this change happening? Fact is most of the chain stores get thier animals from one or two sources who buy them from whomever they can get them from. SO, their is no telling how many diseases are running through the wholesalers stock. Sorry, but that is not a chance I want to take ever.

Just because someone sells excess snakes that does not mean they are unhealthy. It just means excess.
Who do you buy from? Only people you know personally and are able to inspect their collections?
Do you take chances and buy from unknowns at shows?
Same things can happen at shows or through internet sales.
Just saying...

>>
>>Secondly, you said it best, "we look out for number one, it is human nature", BUT, that is a discussion for another day, that is the whole problem, for the most part, we are not concerned with others well beings when we would all live much better lives if we did think of others before always acting.
>>
>>I am not concerened with $15-$25 albinos and other low end morphs, but when I pay $500 for an animal because it is new to the world. Then in less that 2-3 years some jack butt sells his babies for $150 and the market is affectively crashed at that point. Guess the lesson is that I should not pay high dollars and should just stop working with snakes because there are too many people with no true economical sense that are in the hobby now.
>>
>>If this offends anyone, then oh well.
>>
>>dc

that's the problem with a new morph. By the time it hits the market there are quite a few people that have what it takes to reproduce it, or will have soon enough.
I would never pay "entry" price for a morph. Mainly for the reason you stated...within a year or two it will be more common and much cheaper. You can't blame the person for selling it cheaper then the originals. Once it becomes common the price drops. If breeder "A" doesn't drop the price down below "new" price, breeder "B", "C", "D" and "E" will. It's the same in almost all markets. Look at electronics.
Just because someone sells a snake for $500.00 that doesn't mean everyone should.
You pay $500.00 each for a pair of snakes, breed them and get 20 babies you can obviously go lower and still make more then your investment back.
If "John's" product and your product are exactly the same and you are selling yours for $500.00, simple business sense tells "John" to sell his for less. He's still making more then it costs to produce them and gives him an advantage in the market.
Why is he "jack butt"?
Because he is undercutting you?
I guess you are right..you should not buy new, over priced morphs. And if you are only in it for the money you might as well get out all-together. Too hard to make it. Most of us are doing it because we enjoy the hobby and the animals.
By the way economic sense and hobby don't really work together. Economic sense and business, yes. Economic sense and hobby...no just doesn't fit..
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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Actually I do only buy from approximately 3 persons when aqcuiring my breeding stock so I do know what the collections are like. There is nothing wrong with buying at shows, but even then you get to see that person and mostly his snakes so you can judge their "appearance" of health, versus buying from a wholesaler on the net or from a pet store that bought from 50 different breeders that you can not see.

I just won't risk my collection to a pet stores animals, but not to say that others shouldn't, you just have to know the risks and practice proper husbandry when doing so.

In regards to the economics of the buisness/hobby, if a morph is new and there aren't a ton available, then why would someone sell their babies for greatly reduced prices, Call it a hobby or buisness, it still doesn't make sense to walk away from money.

Lastly (for the whoel post), I am not just in it for the money, heck, ask my wife, I may clear $400-$500 a year after all the bills are paid for the hobby. If I were in it wto make money, then I would give up all together.

Again, you are right, people can do what they want, no one can stop them, it just doesn't seem to smart to me, but maybe that is just my skewed view.

dc

>>Actually I do only buy from approximately 3 persons when aqcuiring my breeding stock so I do know what the collections are like. There is nothing wrong with buying at shows, but even then you get to see that person and mostly his snakes so you can judge their "appearance" of health, versus buying from a wholesaler on the net or from a pet store that bought from 50 different breeders that you can not see.
>>
>>I just won't risk my collection to a pet stores animals, but not to say that others shouldn't, you just have to know the risks and practice proper husbandry when doing so.

nothing wrong with any of this and you are right, anyone who purchases a snake needs to know what it takes to care for it.

>>
>>In regards to the economics of the buisness/hobby, if a morph is new and there aren't a ton available, then why would someone sell their babies for greatly reduced prices, Call it a hobby or buisness, it still doesn't make sense to walk away from money.

It may be better to sell at a reduced price then not at all. There's a fine line but some is better then none

>>
>>Lastly (for the whoel post), I am not just in it for the money, heck, ask my wife, I may clear $400-$500 a year after all the bills are paid for the hobby. If I were in it wto make money, then I would give up all together.
>>
>>Again, you are right, people can do what they want, no one can stop them, it just doesn't seem to smart to me, but maybe that is just my skewed view.
>>
>>dc

That's like me, I make enough to pay for my hobby and clear maybe $900.00 to $1200.00 a year. To actually make a living at it would be beyond me.

we all have our own skewed way of looking at things.
doesn't mean either of us is right or wrong.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I am seeing the market as a whole crashing down with corns. I am seeing these newer morphs showing up here in BR at the chains just like others are seeing it in their parts of the country. I think part of the reason for some of the crash is the fact new $500 morphs look ALOT like the old $20 morphs, or are just not very attractive IMO. To me its a hobby. I could be playing golf instead, spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars a year on green fees, latest equipment, and all the rest of the hooplah associated with that hobby and not have one thing to show for it other than score cards or bragging rights. Its cool making a buck or two and maybe paying off some of the costs, but I dont look at it that way. If I REALLY want to make money, I would get a second job and I do not consider that a hobby LOL!!!

This year I am working with morphs and subspecies I LIKE. If I sell them at a show, great. If not and I can wholesale the lot to someone willing to buy all of them, great too. Thats just business. I am NOT going to undercut other vendors at a show and feel that is a HUGE no no!! My prices will be comparable. In general, I respect and personally know the other vendors I see at the local shows I do and do not want to get on anybodys bad side. But you cant tell me the other vendors arent cutting deals in onsies and twosies under my nose as well. If everyone starts firesaling, I may jump onboard too, or I may not. That will be my personal decision.

Everything is tight and that includes our hobby. I would be doing this even if I didn't sell a single snake just maybe fewer of them, lol. Have fun, buy snakes will make more!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

First, I said nothing about chain stores or the people who buy snakes there. I was simply stating that by over-producing snakes, or any other kind of animal, the end result is inevitable. Animals will suffer, and prices will keep dropping, period. With all the snakes coming on the market at such low prices perhaps we should start breeding rodents! After all, we can freeze them with no remorse!

>>First, I said nothing about chain stores or the people who buy snakes there. I was simply stating that by over-producing snakes, or any other kind of animal, the end result is inevitable. Animals will suffer, and prices will keep dropping, period. With all the snakes coming on the market at such low prices perhaps we should start breeding rodents! After all, we can freeze them with no remorse!

sorry
breed snakes or not
your choice
no one forcing you
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

You want the last word......you got it!

....wholesale corns....I sell them all...colors and pattern don't matter....same price....cheap....boa people are whining too the last year or so....not enough demand.........
pet shop near here....ultra lav and ultramel lav corns are even in the bins......aaaaaaaah...why......
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......JY

Nice Jhoye, I'll be sure you do not end up with any of my animals, if people are going to crash markets, then they have to at least be quiet about it rather than brag. Thanks for the heads up.

dc

crash it? ...me...ha....last year wholesale corners were paying $3....wow....on tables I saw corns @ $4.99 ....and they were not selling.....

Thanxx...I do not want your corns...
I do not want MY corns either.......
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......JY

The only one crashing the cornsnake market is the cornsnakes. Nobody wants these little squiggly things. Most look at them as being little girly beginner snakes. I guess it doesn't help that we try to produce snakes that are purple and pink..... Happy Easter

more folks at shows trying to trade their "Manly" burmese pythons and savanah monitors a year or two after buying them for "girly" snakes like corns then vice versa LOL!!

If I wanted a manly snake like a Burmese or a retic I would go catch one in South Florida and so the environment there a favor! I just could not stop myself from saying that!

I have been in this crazy hobby for over 25 yrs,and the main reason that is becouse I love this hobby and the people that want to share there knowlage and the ones that are willing to learn something new.....

This hobby is not about the money!!!.....

If you are breeding snakes trying to make "money" you are in the wrong bussiness....Most of the people that I know in the hobby prefer trading or have very fair prices even on the newer morphs....

Those of us that are more interested in the diversity of morphs,and refining some of our "projects". There are many of us that don't care wat the hatchlings are worth we are doing this becouse we love seeing the hatchling pipping, and growing to healthy adults...I know a few hobbiests that are refining, okeetees,anerys,stripes of all kinds,locality morphs, exc....

I hope more people keep selective breeding and worry more about the care and the health of there snakes than the "dollar".I know the biggest thing that I look at is the health quality of the snake-vs-what it costs.....

I have gotten snakes from Don Soderberg,Kathy Love,Jimmy Johnson,Sean Niland and all of the snakes that I got from them are A quality,all ate from day one,no health issues,and all are very great people to deal with,allways willing to take time and talk with you,even if it is just to talk about snakes and breeding ideas....

If your breeding snakes 4 money,you might as well get out now,I would rather give a kid a snake that I know he/she will care 4 than sell it to some one that as no idea of how to care 4 it..Plus seeing there eyes light up and they start jumping around is what will keep this HOBBY alive, get one hooked,many more will fallow.....LOL

That reminds me of a time oh about 25 years ago I saw a baby Rainbow Boa in a cage marked "Rainbow Snake"1 I told the guy it was a Rainbow Boa and he pulled out a sheet looked at it and said, No it's a Rainbow snake. I said ok I would like to buy that Rainbow Snake please. It was 15 bucks.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra