Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here to visit Classifieds
Click for ZooMed
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

USGS, Gordon Rodda; Fabricate Science

EricWI Apr 04, 2010 09:29 AM

This is a bit of a long read, but sums thing sup nicely:

Government officials and employees are stacking the deck in their efforts to push an extreme animal rights agenda. Dr. Gordon Rodda is a scientist that works for the United States Geological Service. The USGS is the Federal agency that has recently become the source of science by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service. Rodda along with the federal leadership are crafting not science, but carefully tailored papers masquerading as 'reports' in order to bring about the agenda of the Humane Society of the United States. The HSUS is bent on taking all animals out of the hands of mankind and is pushing a number of bills now working their way through the US House and the Senate that require this custom work that Rodda is adept at. The doctoring of facts is now systemic and eating away at a system that is supposed to safeguard the rights of US citizens while maintaining stewardship of the United States natural world.

Gordon Rodda with the able assistance of Robert Reed was commissioned by the USGS to write a report on the potential expansion of Burmese Pythons that exist today in the Everglades. This was a request for 'science' from the USFWS. The report was called: "What parts of the US mainland are climatically suitable for invasive alien pythons spreading from Everglades National Park?" This inner office report has been criticized by scientist on many levels. The USFWS, the USGS and Rodda/Reed all know there are many other considerations that need to be quantified in making a legitimate study of this sort. However, a legitimate determination of the possible invasive success of the Burmese Python is not the goal of this requested 'science'. The goal is to use this report as ammunition in gaining the animal rights extremists' ideological goals. They seek to shut down a large segment of the pet industry where millions of scaly critters inhabit aquaria in little boy's bedrooms and in science classrooms across the nation. An industry that employs thousands and according to the HSUS' own numbers, produce $3 billion in business a year.

One particular point illustrates perfectly the cooperation between Rodda/Reed and the USFWS leadership in their animal rights agenda.

Rodda and Reed wrote, "The Burmese Python is a questionable subspecies of the Indian Python, Python molurus" (McDiarmid et al. 1999).

Here is the significance of that singularly damning statement. Now it is not immediately clear why this is damning to the nonsnake keeping public. The problem snakes in the Everglades are Burmese Pythons. The climactic data for Burmese Pythons is no where near as wide ranging as is the climatic data of Indian Pythons is. Hence, this one statement that relegates Burmese and Indian Pythons into one indecipherable mess. To illustrate the folly and patent unfairness of this little trick, imagine saying that Sun Bears, which inhabit lowland tropical rain forests, could survive and thrive everyplace that other bears live. That is silly on the face of it. No less silly, or in this case, dishonest is the mislabeling of the highly specialized Burmese Python with the vastly variable Indian Python. The Burmese Python inhabits the same lowland rain forest as the Sun Bear coincidentally. A Burmese Python would be as far out of his climatic range in Atlanta Georgia as the Sun Bear would be. But not according to Rodda/Reed who require this deception to fabricate their contracted for conclussions.

Further, the USFWS does not agree with that statement either. The USFWS knows that Burmese and Indians Pythons are completely different animals. The Indian Python is already federally regulated. Import and export are illegal. Interstate sales are illegal as well without a Permit granted by the USFWS. Permits for commercial interstate shipping are only granted to individuals who pass through a rigorous application process. If the USFWS believed that the problem Burmese Python is actually the Indian Python, as Rodda and Reed claim in that single sentence, USFWS could end the trade in Burmese Pythons overnight. However, the USFWS leadership is after much more than just that problem species. They never mention the fact that the USFWS disagrees.

As Rodda and Reed gave one another high fives for the genius of this game changing false sentence, they know they will then ply all the climatic data that applies to Indian Pythons fraudulently to Burmese Pythons. They believe their legitimate credentials will discourage others from questioning this betrayal of science and academic integrity. They are stacking the deck in the favor of the extreme animal rights agenda they willingly serve.

In 2009 Hans J. Jacobs, Mark Auliya & Wolfgang Bohme, published a legitimately peer reviewed scientific paper called "Zur taxonomie des dunklen tigerpythons, Python molurus bivittatus Kuhl, 1820, speziell der population von Sulawesi". This document proves that Burmese Pythons are NOT Indian Pythons. The papers abstract reads, "This raised the taxonomic status of the Burmese Python (Python molurus bivittatus) is reassessed and elevated to specific rank again." Rodda and Reed are fully aware of this and yet this was ignored in favor of producing the customized science that pushed their own ideological agendas.

Rodda and Reed know full well that the scientific community does not accept that Burmese are Indian Pythons. They never mentioned that fact.

Rodda and Reed know that Burmese Pythons in the Everglades have been proven to be descendants of South East Asian Rain Forest dwelling Burmese Pythons. Timothy M. Collins, Barbie Freeman and Skip Snow proved the genetic origin of the Burmese Pythons in the Everglades in the FINAL REPORT GENETIC CHARACTERIZATION OF POPULATIONS OF THE NONINDIGENOUS BURMESE PYTHON IN EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK, a report prepared for the South Florida Water Management District in 2008). Yet, Rodda and Reed failed to acknowledge this fact. Instead they used the data of the Indian Python, which created the nightmare scenario of Burmese Pythons at the Kentucky Derby and all across the southern half of the United States. The Rain Forest habitat preferring Burmese Python would not have their legitimate possible threat analyzed if Rodda and Reed could find another way to cook the books.

World renowned Reptile Author and conservationist Mark O'Shea remarks about Indian and Burmese Pythons on his web site:

http://www.markoshea.tv/series3/series03-02a.html

"The two pythons certainly seem to prefer different habitats, the Indian being found in dry woodland locations and the Burmese living in wetter grassland habitats..."

O'Shea knows this. Every Reptile expert on the planet knows this, including Rodda and Reed. The Indian and Burmese Pythons are different animals with different natural requirements. However, Rodda and Reed have chosen the path of deception, which apparently was perfectly fine with Dan Ashe who was the science advisor for the USFWS and is now the number two man at the USFWS and the point man pushing this deception.

The contrast of suitable habitat and range for the non-problem Indian Python, and the problem Burmese Python is dramatic. The Indian is much smaller and tolerant of temperatures that do mirror the data discussed by Rodda and Reed. Not so for the Burmese Python, which is limited to an extremely closely defined range of tropical rainforest in South East Asia. The Everglades is the closest thing to tropical rainforest in the US. Rodda and Reed might have some ground to stand on if the Indian Python was the species in question. Sadly it's not, and Burmese data has been severely bastardized.

An inconvenient occurrence for Rodda and Reed et al was the cold front that hit the United States including Florida during the first two weeks on January 2010. Weather did what weather does in North America and the temperatures in the Everglades dropped into the mid 30's. This happens every 20 to 25 years down south and Burmese Pythons are turning up dead all over the place in the Everglades. The cold weather killed hundreds of warm blooded endangered Manatees and 100 American Crocodiles have turned belly up from the cold. Rodda claimed that Burmese Pythons would invade the lower half of the United States from coast to coast. This includes areas all the way north to Washington DC where they are having record snow falls this winter. I wonder if the Burmese Pythons will be bringing their snowshoes. Talk about bad luck, unfortunately for the animal rights extremists, the University of Florida implanted radio transmitters in ten Burmese Pythons which were monitored before and after the cold snap. A number of those snakes succumbed to the cold! They are preparing a paper about these facts and are currently closely guarding the exact numbers.

The temperature in Tallahassee Florida dropped to 14 degrees over that cold period. A third grader can tell you what would happen to every single Burmese Python that would be subjected to those kind of temps. Eventually the sun comes out and shines brightly. Brightly enough to shine the light of truth on the blatant preconcived conclusion Rodda and the leadership of the USFWS hold to rather than honest science. Now the world is wondering how the cold blooded invaders, that are hell bent on that northward invasion were planning on bundling up next time weather happens. Surely Rodda knows the answer.
www.axcessnews.com/index.php/articles/show/id/19965

Replies (29)

Jaykis Apr 04, 2010 09:40 AM

Excellant. Well written, and it exposes Rodda for what he is....a rogue scientist "on the take", as it were. Someone check his bank account, please.

natsamjosh Apr 04, 2010 11:26 AM

>>Excellant. Well written, and it exposes Rodda for what he is....a rogue scientist "on the take", as it were. Someone check his bank account, please.

I agree, great article. However, if there were any semblance of a scientific process enforced by his employer (ie, we the taxpayers), his garbage would not even be published. That's what's even more disturbing, imo.

jscrick Apr 04, 2010 11:41 AM

I think I would like to footnote this as one of the references for my comments to USF&W.

It is good idea to make comments brief, listing reasons such as this, while providing footnotes to more lengthy cited sources.

Just my thoughts.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Aaron Apr 04, 2010 07:42 PM

What I think has happened is that the herp hobby has grown so much that bull pucky laws are getting harder to pass uncontested. They thought they could ram this legislation through without a fight and without legitamate science and now it may be damaging their credibility. What is unsettling is that other intrests can now point to these events and use them to discredit the science on other more important environmental issues.

brhaco Apr 05, 2010 08:31 AM

Sadly, that has already happened. Just look at some of the posts on this forum the last few months.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

jscrick Apr 04, 2010 10:56 PM

Please check out these 2 links...

http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/gordon-rodda.asp?cycle=08

http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/committees/league-of-conservation-voters-action-fund.asp?cycle=08

This is very telling. Don't think Mr. Rodda is an independent, impartial, unbiased voice.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

chris_mcmartin Apr 05, 2010 07:42 AM

This is very telling. Don't think Mr. Rodda is an independent, impartial, unbiased voice.

I keep hearing that scientists don't make much money. Where does Rodda get up to $10,500 a year to donate?
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

jscrick Apr 05, 2010 11:25 AM

2000 biography Gordon Rodda

Gordon H. Rodda, Ph.D.
Zoologist
USGS - MESC
Fort Collins, CO 80525

Biographical Sketch:

Dr. Rodda obtained a B.A. in organismic biology from the University of Colorado, Boulder and a
Ph.D. in behavioral biology from Cornell University. Since 1987 he has worked exclusively on
scientific research related to the ecology and control of the brown tree snake. He has authored and
co-authored several publications on the brown tree snake as well as served as senior editor for the
1999 book "Problem Snake Management: the Habu and the Brown Tree Snake."

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

jscrick Apr 05, 2010 06:32 PM

Is Gordon Rodda a One Trick Pony? They're not ALL Brown Tree Snakes and this isn't Guam, Professor.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

brhaco Apr 05, 2010 07:52 PM

John, after this past winter, if Rodda isn't backpedaling just as fast as his little feet can carry him, then he's not nearly as smart as even WE give him credit for....
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Jaykis Apr 06, 2010 12:25 PM

"Dr. Rodda obtained a B.A. in organismic biology from the University of Colorado"

Weird....I first read that as "orgasmic".

webwheeler Apr 05, 2010 03:02 PM

"Traditionally, the word racket is used to describe a business that is based on the example of the "protection racket" and indicates that the speaker believes that the business is making money by selling a solution to a problem that the business itself created (or that it intentionally allows to continue to exist), specifically so that continuous purchases of the solution are always needed."

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racket_%28crime%29

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Apr 06, 2010 10:34 PM

THE WORST PART OF THIS IS THAT A SO CALLED ESTEEMED SCIENTIST IS DIRECTING POLICY MAKING BY USFWS BY PUBLISHING A MAP THAT HAS THE SAME VALUE AS TOILET PAPER. EVERY HERPER INCLUDING MOST NEWBIES EVEN KNEW THAT THIS MAP WAS RIDICULOUS. THE REAL PRO'S JAWS HIT THE GROUND AT EVEN THE SUGGESTION OF THEM LIVING IN CENTRAL FLORIDA. MOST OF US INCLUDING ME ARE NOT PHD'S. I'M IN FACT A SECOND YEAR COLLEGE DROP OUT BUT I HAVE FORGOT MORE ABOUT HERPS THAN RODDA AND ALL HIS BUDDIES WILL EVER KNOW. EVERYONE KNEW THEY COULDN'T SURVIVE ANYWHERE BUT IN THE GLADES AND EVEN THEN WITH A GREAT DIFFICULTY. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO REAL SCIENCE BY LEARNED REAL SCIENTIST? IF ANY ONE OF THEM HAD EVER KEPT A BURMESE PYTHON THEY WOULD HAVE KNOWN THEY CAN NOT TAKE COLD TEMPS. NEVER HAVE-NEVER WILL. THE "NEW AMERICA" AND IT'S BASTION OF SCIENCE MAKES ME SICK TO MY STOMACH. I ALMOST PURSUED ACADEMIA AND HAD THEIR BEEN JOBS IN THAT TIME I WOULD HAVE. FOR ONE I'M ASHAMED OF THE LIKES OF RODDA, REED, DORKAS, AND OTHER MORONIC PUPPETS. NOT ONE OF US WOULD NEED TO WASTE THE TAXPAYERS MONEY TO SEE IF A BURMESE COULD LIVE OUTSIDE IN SOUTH CAROLINA EVEN WITH MAN MADE REFUGES. MOST OF THESE PYTHON RESEARCHERS COULD SIMPLY ASK ME OR MANY OTHER PEOPLE AND WE COULD GIVE THEM MANY ANSWERS ON THEIR SUPPOSED EXPENSIVE RESEARCH WITHOUT SPENDING ONE RED CENT OF THE TAX PAYERS DOLLAR. I, FOR ONE, AM ASHAMED OF THESE PEOPLE. RAYMOND DITMARS MUST BE TURNING OVER IN HIS GRAVE. I'D BET THAT MOST OF THEM WOULDN'T EVEN KNOW WHO HE WAS. IT'S A DAMN SHAME BUT TRUE!!!SORRY FOR THE RANT...[NOT REALLY]
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

natsamjosh Apr 06, 2010 11:00 PM

No need to apologize, Tom! It still boggles my mind that in the 21st century in the most scientifically advanced country in the history of the world, that our government has such a corrupt system that this kind of "research" even gets published. Both our government, as well as any scientific process, are supposed to have checks and balances. Doesn't look like the DOI has any checks and balances. And just think, our hard earned money pays for their salaries and/or funding. It's infuriating.

brhaco Apr 06, 2010 11:25 PM

Rather than an indictment of science and the peer review process, this is an illustration of what can happen when that process is intentionally circumvented. You get crapola like the USGS Python range map.

Want to know what REAL science can do? Just look around us at the technological, scientific and medical advances that make our modern society possible. Remember, barely more than a century ago we were basically all riding horses and dying from minor bacterial infections (usually before age 50)....
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Apr 07, 2010 05:32 AM

While correct, I've only been following Herp Science and in that area it is NOT only Python Maps that are disturbing. You have major AZA Zoo's freezing Komodo and Fiji Iguana eggs andor young all in the guise of deciding that's best [to keep out of the hands of private Herpetoculture] for the species. You have at least 2-3 species of Cyclura with the AZA admitting they have NO room to breed them leaving them to grow old and die rather than letting the private sector produce them. I could go on and on. The ENTIRE Zoological Science part of our society today is rife with stupidity and questionable morals. While PERHAPS science in other areas is still intact as a viable positive entity our Zoological Sciences are cluttered with scientist that have hidden agenda's and I'm sick to my stomach with most of it. Perhaps on the next Tonight Show with Jay Leno instead of bringing herps there as illuminaries have in the past as in the days of Johnny Carson, Zoos could bring dead preserved Fiji Iguana's and Komodo's and explain what a great job their doing as stewards of endangered species and saving the planet's wildlife. I'm sure the dead Komodo's ect. that are dead only because their gene pool is well represented in Zoo's will be easy to explain to the general populace as an effective way of conserving wild ones. Why don't they do that with Gorilla's for instance. It is well known that the Colombus Zoo Gorilla's at one time were so well represented they were told NOT to breed them. Did they ever make a mistake and have a baby born out of the directive of the AZA? If so I guarantee it wasn't killed as are HERPS. ALL OF THIS IS RIDICULOUS AND I BELIEVE ILLEGAL UNDER THE ESA BUT ISN'T EVER PURSUED BY USFWS...Why is that? I'm not sure and perhaps a lot of us should ask that question.....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

brhaco Apr 07, 2010 08:07 AM

I have to mostly agree with your comments, Tom. I don't see the AZA (in general-some exceptions) as pillars of the scientific community, either
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

jscrick Apr 07, 2010 08:30 AM

Heck no. It's all about business and budget and priorities.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

jscrick Apr 07, 2010 08:42 AM

I'm all for the private sector getting together to "workshop" "brainstorm" quality assurance protocols, as well as strategies to return the successful captive breeding of rare and endangered animals to the private sector. Something WE should do, for ourselves and for the animals. WE are the true stewards of these animals. It is OUR obligation to actively participate and contribute successful outcomes. We hold those species' destiny, as well as our own destiny, in OUR own hands.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

amazonreptile Apr 12, 2010 07:52 PM

>>While correct, I've only been following Herp Science and in that area it is NOT only Python Maps that are disturbing. You have major AZA Zoo's freezing Komodo and Fiji Iguana eggs andor young all in the guise of deciding that's best [to keep out of the hands of private Herpetoculture] for the species. You have at least 2-3 species of Cyclura with the AZA admitting they have NO room to breed them leaving them to grow old and die rather than letting the private sector produce them. I could go on and on. The ENTIRE Zoological Science part of our society today is rife with stupidity and questionable morals. While PERHAPS science in other areas is still intact as a viable positive entity our Zoological Sciences are cluttered with scientist that have hidden agenda's and I'm sick to my stomach with most of it. Perhaps on the next Tonight Show with Jay Leno instead of bringing herps there as illuminaries have in the past as in the days of Johnny Carson, Zoos could bring dead preserved Fiji Iguana's and Komodo's and explain what a great job their doing as stewards of endangered species and saving the planet's wildlife. I'm sure the dead Komodo's ect. that are dead only because their gene pool is well represented in Zoo's will be easy to explain to the general populace as an effective way of conserving wild ones. Why don't they do that with Gorilla's for instance. It is well known that the Colombus Zoo Gorilla's at one time were so well represented they were told NOT to breed them. Did they ever make a mistake and have a baby born out of the directive of the AZA? If so I guarantee it wasn't killed as are HERPS. ALL OF THIS IS RIDICULOUS AND I BELIEVE ILLEGAL UNDER THE ESA BUT ISN'T EVER PURSUED BY USFWS...Why is that? I'm not sure and perhaps a lot of us should ask that question.....
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

amazonreptile Apr 12, 2010 07:54 PM

Hi Tom et al;

I was told the zoos are freezing eggs of ESA animals AT THE DIRECTIVE OF FWS. That is once there are "enough" of a bloodline and no further zoos to place them in, then the reproduction must halt. They cannot by agreement with the source countries allow the surplus specimens to leave the zoos' hands so they must end reproduction.
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

natsamjosh Apr 07, 2010 07:02 AM

>>Rather than an indictment of science and the peer review process, this is an illustration of what can happen when that process is intentionally circumvented. You get crapola like the USGS Python range map.

I know, that's what I said, or was trying to say. I wasn't "indicting" the peer review process. I was "indicting" those (individuals and organizations) that circumvent it. Not sure
why you think I was indicting anything else.

>>
>>Want to know what REAL science can do? Just look around us at the technological, scientific and medical advances that make our modern society possible. Remember, barely more than a century ago we were basically all riding horses and dying from minor bacterial infections (usually before age 50)....

Brad, did you even read what I wrote? In the first or second line of my post I wrote "in the most scientifically advanced country..." I'm not criticizing science, I'm criticizing junk science. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Thanks,
Ed

brhaco Apr 07, 2010 08:06 AM

Sorry Nat-that wasn't aimed at you, just a general clarification.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Calparsoni Apr 07, 2010 09:13 AM

Karl Benz was not a scientist he was an engineer. Henry Ford to my knowledge received no formal college education and in fact chose doing mechanical work over running the family farm. The guy who invented the battery in Henry Ford's model T did so with only a 6th grade education, which was much different than a 6th grade education today considering most people received no formal education past the 8th grade. That would be Thomas Edison btw. I seem to recall that Alfred Russell Wallace started out as a novice bug collector while he was employed as a surveyor or maybe it was Henry Walter Bates. In fact it seems to me that a lot of the great scientific discoveries of those times were done novices such as ourselves. Either way it does not matter the fact is cars were invented by mechanics and engineers not scientists and the current scientific culture out there particularly in the case of those in the employ of our government is a far cry from what we have seen in years past.

BRhaco Apr 07, 2010 12:07 PM

Engineers and mechanics can only put into practice the basic theories and knowledge about the universe which science uncovers. Engineers build atomic plants and bombs-but 'ol Albert and the other theoretical physicists gave them the basic theory to do so. Same with modern medical devices and drugs, as well as genetic engineering, solar panels, etc.

There was a day when innovation was possible with simple mechanical ingenuity, but that day is for the most part past.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Calparsoni Apr 07, 2010 08:27 AM

there is a verse in the bible somewhere that says "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools", I think that verse hits home with a lot of these guys.

Jaykis Apr 08, 2010 07:20 PM

Although most of the great zoologists of the past wouldn't get anywhere nowadays because of the lack of degrees.

Calparsoni Apr 09, 2010 12:34 AM

How funny that one of the two naturalists behind the theory of evolution, which is the cornerstone of modern biology, didn't have one.
I wonder what the ratio is between those who have degrees and those who don't when it comes to success in keeping and breeding reptiles and amphibians (or fish or mammals or birds or....)

Jaykis Apr 10, 2010 09:35 AM

Both, I believe.

Site Tools