Reptile & Amphibian Forums

...it was sort of depressing Seeing all those critters in litlle cups, smushed geckos, sick anoles - this guy had an anole, very skinny, old and one eye was completely covered. I asked the guy about it and he picked up the container and said - oh he's shedding, I said "that is not shed" so he looked again and said oh yeah, could be from disease, parasite, or he got cut. Very matter of factly - I wanted to puke. He pulled it off the table and who knows what he did with it. I almost bought it just so I could bring it home and put it in the freezer and out of its misery!

Then there were the pygmy leaf cham's. 4 full grown all together in a deli-cup, one was terribly skinny, $20. Again I wanted to "save" them but know better. When I asked what species they were (all he had was pygmy leaf on the container) he said "uh, ber, bes, something with a b" I said breivcaudatus? Yeah, that's it! I asked how old and he said "well, I've had them a few weeks." I had to walk away.

There was one woman from PA who had lots of sweet CB baby veiled's for $30. They were healthy, nice set up and she was very pleasant and knowledgeable. She has all her cham's drinking water from a bowl. She said that once they are big enough she "trains" them with a dripper and leaves in the water - it was neat.

Well, I got a few supplies and I did get a buddy girl gecko for my little girl gecko.

I stopped going to cat shows many years ago because they were depressing and I don't see myself frequenting herp shows - frankly, the prices on supplies were not much of a bargain. I did get a heat emmitter for $20 (ZooMEd 60w) and I have a $3 rebate for it. Otherwise wasn't all that impressed - more DEpressed...is it just me?

lele

I totally know what you mean. I really liked it when I saw the baby Veiled's and such in a real set up instead of the deli cups. We got our Carpet from one who had them in smaller sized set ups and then put the cham in the container in order for the new owner to take it home.

Sooo...were there lots of cham's there or not many??? Wondering if all the shows are mainly snakes, geckos, etc.

Wish you had more fun...glad you got your other a friend!

Kristen
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0.1 pygmy leaf
1.0 carpet
1.0 jackson

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0.1 pygmy leaf
1.0 carpet
1.0 jackson

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>>0.1 pygmy leaf
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Lele-

You did the right thing and walked away! Don't support shops with sick animals, if they can sell sick animals and make money they will continue doing it. Once they lose enough money they will be forced to change there ways or go out of business. You need to get that veiled chameleon you always wanted!LOL! I am sending you an email!
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John @ Chameleon Paradise
1.1 Ambilobe Panthers
1.1 Nosy Be Panthers
1.1 Sambava Panthers
1.2 Rhampholeon uluguruensis

Yes, I knew better (from learning here!). While I was getting the gecko a girl an dher boyfriend had a bay veiled in a cup and we got chatting. She said today was the first time she'd seen one and "couldn't resist." I began to ask if she'd gotten advice about setup, etc. but then I got paged b/c someone found my ATM card :/ Of course then they were gone. Hope she got the scoop!

lele

>>Lele-
>>
>>You did the right thing and walked away! Don't support shops with sick animals, if they can sell sick animals and make money they will continue doing it. Once they lose enough money they will be forced to change there ways or go out of business. You need to get that veiled chameleon you always wanted!LOL! I am sending you an email!
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>>John @ Chameleon Paradise
>>1.1 Ambilobe Panthers
>>1.1 Nosy Be Panthers
>>1.1 Sambava Panthers
>>1.2 Rhampholeon uluguruensis
>>
>>

lele, The lady from PA sellign the Veiled chams,is the woman i bought my 3 from. Did you speak with her at all? She encourages inbreeding, encourages housing more then one cham together, told people to yank them out by their tales is the way to pick them up,etc. Her chams are very nice looking, and she was clean as ive heard. She kept all her chams in glass aquariums though(my parents went to her house) One of my little guys from her is believed to have Gout or MBD. not sure which yet, but either way hes stabalized. Some peoples looks are decieving...

I didn't get into discussing too many particulars b/c I knew I wouldn't be getting one - though now I realize I should play dumb, ask ??? and see what they recommend - just to check them out.

She had LOTS of babies - probably 3-5"s/v, they were all together but in a relatively large screen cage with plants, branches etc. She seemed genuinely concerned about one whose eyes had popped but were not going back in. She did have a few larger females 7-8" s/v in a glass tank and noticed that one's tail had gotten smushed and blamed it on people lifting the screen and not being careful when replacing it. I asked her if she just let people handle them on their own and she didn't reply.

Glad you told me about her. So even though I found the whole thing sort of depressing maybe I will go to "monitor" and ask lots of questions. Would the organizers of these shows give a s*** if they heard negative feedback about vendors? I am such a trouble maker! LOL!!!

>>lele, The lady from PA sellign the Veiled chams,is the woman i bought my 3 from. Did you speak with her at all? She encourages inbreeding, encourages housing more then one cham together, told people to yank them out by their tales is the way to pick them up,etc. Her chams are very nice looking, and she was clean as ive heard. She kept all her chams in glass aquariums though(my parents went to her house) One of my little guys from her is believed to have Gout or MBD. not sure which yet, but either way hes stabalized. Some peoples looks are decieving...

It is true that some herp shows have some pretty sad looking animals. Sometimes buyers just don't know better or they will rescue the sick and dying which perpetuates the whole cycle - kudos to you Lele for not 'rescuing' one of these!

I attend a show in northern chicago which is twice a month. I have to say that at this show, I have a hard time finding even one sick animal. It's pretty high quality. However, you will still see animals in deli cups and small conatiners. This may be depressing, but you have to realize that this is temporary for display and sales purposes. Also, breeders may keep a lot of young chams together or keep other herps at higher densities than a hobbyist would. The good ones know what they're doing and 'get away' with this type of housing as they know what problems to look for.

I just love going and talking to people there. It's a great way to learn about herps and I've hooked up with some really experienced people.

Joel Fish

Joel,

Yes, I understand about the deli-cup "housing.” Obviously they can't bring all their herps in their individual set ups. It's still depressing. Though I was happy to see the baby chams in a nice screen setup instead of deli-cups When you see sick, maimed (like the anole with the eye problem) or otherwise unhealthy animals (and their were a lot) you have to wonder about the conditions the seller keeps them in. I would also, at the very least, expect a seller to know the species name of the herps they are selling. That brevi incident just made me sick. I suppose I am even more sensitive to it after having, and losing, three of my own a couple moths ago.

I would guess if you have a herp show twice a month(!) there is obviously enough turnover so there would be fewer unhealthy animals. This show is twice a year and is the BIG NE show. NH doesn't have a herp society anymore, but Maine does and they were there - I wonder what their take is...think I'll email them.

An added note on the anole incident...while I was pointing the problem out to the seller a little girl said "I want that one!" and her dad said "no you don't" - I wonder if the guy would have sold it had I not been there or the Dad had not witnessed the dialog. My first herp was an anole (40 years ago!) and I thought about this Dad buying his little girl her first critter and my Dad when he bought ours...which died soon after simply b/c we had no idea what we were doing.

So I appreciate that there are plenty of reputable breeders all over the country (and beyond - can't forget out CDN and UK friends ) I was just disappointed at much of what I saw.

lele

>>It is true that some herp shows have some pretty sad looking animals. Sometimes buyers just don't know better or they will rescue the sick and dying which perpetuates the whole cycle - kudos to you Lele for not 'rescuing' one of these!
>>
>>I attend a show in northern chicago which is twice a month. I have to say that at this show, I have a hard time finding even one sick animal. It's pretty high quality. However, you will still see animals in deli cups and small conatiners. This may be depressing, but you have to realize that this is temporary for display and sales purposes. Also, breeders may keep a lot of young chams together or keep other herps at higher densities than a hobbyist would. The good ones know what they're doing and 'get away' with this type of housing as they know what problems to look for.
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>>I just love going and talking to people there. It's a great way to learn about herps and I've hooked up with some really experienced people.
>>
>>Joel Fish

Another aspect of shows people don't think about is this: breeders may very well have their own cb animals in good shape but I also know there are vendors (seen it many times) who buy cheap imports right before big shows to generate income in case their more expensive cb animals don't happen to sell. They don't have to care for the new animals long enough for health problems to be diagnosed, don't vet treat them, and they are kind of a novelty. They know there are "collectors" hoping to see something new and willing to take a chance on something odd if they don't have to put out lots of $$ for it. The sad thing is this just perpetuates capture, export, sale, and death of wc species who no one knows how to care for properly. Someone who really cares about the fate of an obscure cham species is not all that likely to take it to a show and sell it for nothing. It is hard enough on cb animals to travel to shows, but imagine the stress on a recent import! Lots of people go to animal shows out of curiosity and hopes to see something really bizarre.

it's really sad.
I like seeing when pet shops/breeders/etc have animals that you can tell they care about. Even little things like "talking" to one that is in a deli cup for the time being, and worrying about the ones that don't look so well.
Hopefully someday those interested in the business of animal trade will be those who do it because they LOVE animals... not money.
I'm going to a show in St Jacob's soon... Hopefully it will be different! There cham trade isn't exactly "booming" in canada yet, so it'll probably be mostly snakes and beardies...
I'll let you know how it goes.
Write a letter to whomever puts on the show! They should be more careful who they set up for. Or... write an article for the paper, just exclude names. There should be SOMETHING that will help...