Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello Nate, your quote below got me to thinking about my male Black Milk.
“…Take L. t. gaigeae, for example... as unique as they seem to be, it's entirely possible that they're nothing more than a melanistic form of stuarti, polyzona, or even andesiana. Lamar mentioned finding several milksnakes in South America (andesiana/micropholis country) that were so dark dorsally, that he had to flip them over to be able to detect the slightest hint of red/white banding. I guess my point is that it will be interesting to find out how the differences in phenotype relate to the differences in genotype.”
My male did not complete his color change (to my satisfaction , he is about 5 years old and around 4’ or a little more. He is mostly black if you look at him from the top but retained some very muted banding on the sides and more visibly on his belly. How often do you think Black Milks retain banding? Is it more common than is presented here on Kingsnake? My female that is almost 3 years old is completely black and just as thick as my male and just as long (so why is he not well over five feet for his age?). The male was purchased from a well respected breeder. I guess my question is do you think the retained banding is a sign that he/all Black milks are just melanistic form or the species you listed above? I know that is not a proven fact but again your comments made me wonder. Also, I would like to breed my female to him but don’t want to risk babies that won’t complete their color change.

I am not a “breeder” and not as literate on the history of milk snakes in general. I am just someone who likes snakes and is baffled by the lack of a complete change in color by my Black milksnake.

Regards,
Miller
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1.1 Pituophis lineaticollis lineaticollis
1.1 Black Pine
1.2 Still Water Hypos
0.0.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
1.2 N. Pinesnake
1.0 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
1.0 Chow Chow(2003 Papi)
0.1 Cat(Shug

Wow I thought these guys got 5 feet at the minimum! Interesting your male didn't get much bigger than 4. I cant wait to see what kind of replies you get on this
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~Markus

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done!

Hey Miller, I hope someone who actually works closely with black milks responds. That is a subspecies I am looking into now. However, I have and do work with species that undergo ontonogenic/ontogenic (never remember how this is spelled, but means color changes with age LOL!!)and apparently there is no hard and fast rule regarding this issue. Corns are a perfect example. You can get less than stellar corns from screamer okeetees, imperfect mexican black kings from solid ink black adults, and ugly jungle carpet pythons from gorgeous black and yellow adults. In general, line breeding best with best has eliminated some of this from happening, but all a breeder can do is show you pics of the adults with the hopes that the babies will mature to look as good as they do. I would assume this is the same with your black milk. It doesnt mean he wont produce babies that will mature to jet black adults. Most breeders hold back the pick of the litters that they estimate will be the best examples of the species to include in their breeding programs. So, some of the truly best never make it to market!! Once again, they are not all picture perfect representatives and I am sure there are more "imperfect" examples than perfect floating around out there!!

I may breed them in a couple of years, I like for my females to be in the 4 to 5 year range. I have only bred a couple of my snakes in the past for the experience. The male does still seem to be darkening it just seems to have slowed dramatically, most of what I have read says they normally complete the change in 2 to 3 years. Another oddity about him is that he is not very big and I have never been accused of under feeding my snakes. Anyway, he is a great snake so I am still happy to have him.

Miller
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1.1 Pituophis lineaticollis lineaticollis
1.1 Black Pine
1.2 Still Water Hypos
0.0.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
1.2 N. Pinesnake
1.0 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
1.0 Chow Chow(2003 Papi)
0.1 Cat(Shug

Miller,

I don't have near the experience with them of Nate and Dniles but I have raised up some that never totally blacked out (heartbreak) amd have seen others from other collections that haven't too. When they do though, they are AWESOME!!

I have wondered....Does anybody with a great deal of experience with them think that temperatures they are kept at determines blackness to any extent? Room temp,no heat contrasted by heat spot provided or indirect back heat ? While many Black Milks stay away from the heated area in my experience, others use it as much as a regular King or millk. If you use a temp gun on a cool day outside you'd be surprised how hot some areas can get in the sun.

Bob

Hello,
Personally, I think that how completely a gaigeae turns black is more a matter of nature than nurture, but I haven't done any controlled experiments to confirm that theory. Even among snakes from the same clutch, kept in identical conditions, there can be a high degree of variability. For example, here's a picture of two black milks from my 2008 clutch taken when they were just under a year old:

As you can see, there's quite a difference in color and size. The smaller snake would almost always refuse meals when it was in shed (about 25% of the time), which likely accounts for the size difference. 8 months later, they are both almost completely black.

How quickly the ontogenetic color change happens may be affected by temperature, though. Here's a picture of my male breeder at about 18 months old, still showing a little white and a lot of red:

That was about seven years ago, and not knowing then what I know now, I kept my gaigeae fairly warm, probably 80-85 degrees. These days, I keep my hatchlings in unheated Sterilite shoeboxes in a fairly warm room (~75 degrees), and they seem to darken up a bit faster. The hatchlings I produced in September 2009, only about 7 months old now, are already about as dark as my breeders were at 18 months. The end result always seems to be the same, though... they always turn out to be 99% black, with just a hint of very dark grey on the ventral side of their head/neck and tail.

Nate

Something I've wondered about. I appreciate your experience and thoughts.

Bob.

Thanks Bob for the reply. Have you every bred any that were not totally black? If so, did the offspring turn black or did you get feedback that some of the babies did not change?

Thanks,
Miller
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1.1 Pituophis lineaticollis lineaticollis
1.1 Black Pine
1.2 Still Water Hypos
0.0.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
1.2 N. Pinesnake
1.0 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
1.0 Chow Chow(2003 Papi)
0.1 Cat(Shug

Miller,

No, all the ones I raised were from several breeders because I was looking to start a diverse little colony. I abandonded the the project for several reasons and just lately aquired some nice hatchlings from parents that were all Black to try again.

Hello,
Sorry to hear that your black milk didn't turn out to be everything you hoped he would be. Kevin made some very good points in his reply to your message. Although the vast majority of L. t. gaigeae are going to grow up to be 5-6 feet long and 90-something percent black, that's just an average. There are black milks (such as the one at the San Antonio Zoo) that are over 7 feet long and 99% black, so it stands to reason that there are going to be a certain number of 4 footers that only ever get to be 75% black at the other "tail" of the bell curve. When buying a hatchling black milk (or any other species that undergoes an ontogenetic color change), you should always ask to see the parents, so that you have some idea of what to expect that hatchling to look like as an adult. However, there are a number of factors, both genetic and environmental, that can prevent these snakes from growing up to be as big and black as you would expect them to be. If your snake is well fed and being kept properly, then its condition is probably the result of genetics. Depending on the severity of your dissatisfaction and your plans for the future, you might want to contact the breeder you bought him from and see if you can get either a refund or replacement. If I had sold that snake to you, I would offer to either replace it or buy it back from you at a fair price.

What I was getting at in that post that you quoted is that not all "black milksnakes" are necessarily L. t. gaigeae from the cloud forests of Costa Rica. Conversely, just because a milksnake is from the cloud forests of Costa Rica doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be black. For example, here are some Miramar locality L. t. gaigeae in a European collection:

www.die-netzwerker.de/burnsy/gaigae.html

Those snakes are very different from what's available here in the United States. The one in the first two pictures is an adult, and is quite obviously not completely black, not even mostly black. The head patterns have more of a micropholis/andesiana look, whereas the ones I'm accustomed to seeing have more of a polyzona/stuarti look, before they turn black.

Nate

Nate, great info. I recently acquired a pair of andesianas. The male appears to be typical in appearance for andesiana, but the female looks "off" and slightly honduran in appearance. I posted her pic here and others on the forum felt she had at least some honduran going on. When I sent a pic of the female to the vendor, he felt he may have messed up and sent me a honduran by mistake. Regardless, her head pattern does not appear typical honduran to me for some reason and her nasal band is not as defined as I typically see in hondurans. I showed her to a good herp friend of mine who has kept andesiana in the past and he felt she could possibly be andesiana, or even a black milk!!! His comment was to raise her up and see if she turns black. I quess my point is I am wondering how much "integradation" has occurred with the gaigea and andesiana, and possibly even with hondurensis due to misidentification, lack of locality data, or other variables. To top it off, I was looking at her last night and noticed a darkish sheen over her entire body while her eyes were clear. I quess its a mystery that may resolve itself as she matures LOL!!

Here is a pic of the female I posted previously on this forum. Please give me your opinion.

Thanks!
KevinM

It would be interesting to see that animal from above. If you can get it (and the others from that vendor) into deli cups and snap dorsal photos of each of them, it would help with the ID issue, immensely. From that angle, the snout band appears too clean and even to be andesiana, though there’s a slight blur on the snout that could be misleading me. A clear dorsal shot of even just the head would be key.

-Cole

Hello,
I saw those threads, was a little confused by your two different user names but now I get it. Sorry, but I have to agree with what others have said... it looks like a Honduran to me. Andesiana don't have nearly so much black on their heads. Where did you get them from?

Nate

Nate, I sent you a PM.

Not all triangulum with heavy dermal melanin deposition are gaigeae, and not all gaigeae turn solid black. This is likely to be especially true in and near intergrade zones between gaigeae and the adjacent forms: micropholis to the south, stuarti (which will probably be sunk into polyzona in the near future) along the Pacific coastal plain, and possibly hondurensis (again, likely to be sunk into polyzona) along the Caribbean coastal plain.

I also agree that ize can depend on numerous factors. Food quality and quantity, genetics, environmental conditions, etc.

-Cole

Thanks... since you've mentioned it a few times before, do you happen to know how extensive that pending taxonomic overhaul is? I'm wondering if it will affect all milksnakes, especially the sinaloae/nelsoni and micropholis/andesiana subspecies.

has it that a large number of the 25 subspecies as we know them will be sunk based on morphology, geography, and biochemisty. Rumored changes include the sinking of most western NA forms (multistrata, taylori, and celaenops) into gentilis, relegating sinaloae back into nelsoni, and continuing to recognize elapsoides as a distinct species, amongst others. Since I'm not part of the project and have not seen the data, I can't say for sure what's going on except that and changes will likely be well-suported.

-Cole