Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had a female Az Mountian King, she was doing great coming out of hibernation, eating great, bred with my male about 4 weeks ago. Ate 3 days ago and grabbed her cage today to clean and she was dead. Husbandry for this snake is just like the rest of my mountain kings, hot side at 85 and cool side at 78 during the day with a night time drop down to around 80 hot side and 72 cool side. Bedding "sani chips" and always feed my snakes in a seperate box with paper towels. Any ideas guys? Thanks.
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Jimmy Tintle

Funny you should mention this. I have tried to raise up 2 different pairs of Pyros Knobs at different times tears apart and Both times I had a similar experience. I am stuck with a male right now for the same reason. Both times for no obvious reason the female died. Each was eating and seemed to be doing well. This last one was going on her thrird years and was big enough to breed but she died before I even cooled her. It will be a long time before I try again unledd i can figure out what I might be doing wrong. The male is still alive and he eats spuradically. The female had a good appetite and she perished. Go figure?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

J Thanks, I am not so upset anymore but has been a long time for a snake to surcome to a death like that for me. I am pleased to hear that others have had the same issue(I Guess!) DOA like that is just nuts. No rhyme or reason. Thanks again for the input
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Jimmy Tintle

Sometimes, even if you do everything right animals die..

Sorry for your loss!

~ Mike Russo

Thanks Mike
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Jimmy Tintle

I don't undertsnad your post.

Are you saying one snake killed the other?
Was there a feeding accident?
or you just found the one snake dead in the cage after you intruoduced that there are no markings or other clues to make you tghink the one attached and constricted the other?

Or are you saying it died of just plain old stress after you plaed the female intop th males cage. Then found the female dead the next day with no signs of foul play>?

Whatever the scenario. It could have been avoided by introducing the two prior to winter brumation (after they both go off food) to acclimate or BONG to each other..(*^*&%!. I meant BOND, yet a bong might help them tas well... :;

Mtn Kings live in groups in the wild. A new intruder can trigger several responses which includes stress, canibalism or even just the movement of the one snake triggered a feeding response even though one snake was left behind for dead and not eaten.

Ever threw a live mouse into a snakes cage that did not want to eat/ (the snake not the mouse). Yet the snake still killed the mouse anyway. Could be due to irratablity or annoyance of its intruder. So many things could have caused this..

I have had my share of bad luck that boiled down to me just making mnistakes.Or poor judements based on the ecology of these snakes. Sometimes those lessons can cost a lot depending on what animals you lost. Trying to figure out what took place will assure you you won't make the same mistake again. If you don't grasp what you did did wrong , well, it's sure not the snakes fault! And it will just happen again unless you figure them out. What is important is to understand what made the other murder and leave for dead or caused a stress reaction so violent the snake could not handle it.. Keeeping them apart until breeding season is not a good way to eleviate this.

I belive these snakes should be kept in groups and care given to feeding time. That is it.
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

Sounds like everything was going fine and the female was found doa in her own cage? I will say this I think Mt Kings have certain requirements that I at least have not figured out. It could be I just had bad luck with both my pairs but i rarely have snakes die on me. Both of my females just died suddenly without even being cooled or introduced to a male yet. Maybe they need cooler temps or less humidity I don't know but untill I can figure out what my mistake was I just won't be going down that road. The freaky part is they seemed to be doing fine then boom. Now to hear of it happening to someone else just makes more sure there is something else in the equation that's missing.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I had the same exact problem with a female knob. I kept her exactly the way I keep the rest of my collection, she was perfectly healthy and eating regularly, and one morning I just found her dead. I have a male that I've kept using all the same husbandry techniques and he is perfectly healthy. I'm sorry for your loss, it was tough for me to lose my female that way.

I never left the male/female together. I introduced the female 4 weeks ago and bam the male bred with her. For the next three weeks I introduced the female into the males cage, and they bred. Until she decided that she had enough about 2 weeks later. Since she has fed and had bowel movements and showed no sign of anything wrong. Then Bam! she is DOA. I have 2 other pairs of pyro pyro and 2 pairs of Knobs and they are fine so far...(Keep fingers crossed. There has been nothing different in their husbandry at all just "Sudden Death". Shes frozen now and I will be taking her to the university for an autopsy to see if we can figure it out.

PS I could feel 4 eggs after her death( was tempted to see if they would survive after a c-section but decided against opening up) Just crazy!
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Jimmy Tintle

I am so very sorry to hear about you losing your snake.

In times like this, answers to these tough questions may never be found. I hope the autopsy reveals some clues.

Myself and every one I know that has kept snakes, bred snakes, and kept and bred snakes, has experienced something similar. If the care was top notch, and everything was appearing to be going good, from feeding, to defecating, to everything, and you know you were doing everything right, then there is also the possibility of realizing that some snakes only make it to a certain age, and are destined to pass away due to some internal issues that they may have been born with, that no one would have ever even known anything about until it happened.

Again, I am very sorry.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

not just for you, but others here as wellThis does bother me, as I often cause people to get upset. As a pioneer in breeding kings and pyros in particular. These problems were solved decades ago.

The REAL problem is the humans and not the snakes. We get about as goofy as you can imagine. Here we have lots of species of kings, all from DIFFERENT HABITATS, yet we stuff them into the same boxes and say, well that one did well, then think, so should this one.

We have kings that occur at elevation, ones that occur in low areas, etc, etc. All kings require a RANGE of temps and humidity. In fact, all can use the same range to pick what they need. But thats not what we offer, we offer the narrowest average range. A range that suits US and our boxes. Not a range that the snakes naturally use. Snakes all use different temps for different tasks.

Humans being so smart, cannot even figure the simplest of these things out. For instance, biologist take the temps of a moving snake, one that is out moving. Then we base what snakes(reptiles) require on that. The truth is, snakes rest at low temps. Sometimes very very low near freezing. They pick that. They commonly rest at temps in the forties, fifties, and sixties. Above that is NOT RESTING. This is for ALL snakes.

They will all use temps(ground temps=hotspot) of 100F. Althought they rarely if ever allow their body temps to reach that. The truth is, the allow their body temps to reach the low 90's F for various tasks, but not crawling. Crawling out requires temps hot enough for full function, but not so hot that there is no margin of error. Yet basking to digest food or during certain times of gestation, they allow their body temps to near lethal.

Most of the time wild snakes live and move about(in their shelters) at temps below what we call hibernating temps.(30's thru 50's)

So their preferred range is easily from the 40's to high 90's. And there is room for error, all species. Now lets take a break and look at particular species. Yes if you offered a narrow range to some species(getula), they will do all right(not great, but alright, appears good enough for us humans). Others species may not tolerate a narrow choice so well, like pyros for instance.

This is so simple it hurts me to think about it, a snake from high elevation, can and does use hotter temps then lower elevation species, and can and does use temps that are lower then low elevation species. Just think about it, nights could all year, and in the summer super hot days.

It appears pyros need a wider range of temps to excell. Getula kings do not require that large of a range, that is, they do not die from a narrow range, but if offered they will make good use of it.

The absolute truth is, if you offered a wider range from the fifties to the 90's, all colubrids will thrive and you do not have to do a dang thing. You do not have to hibernate them, or bring them out. They will do it all on their own, without your help, just like all the wild ones have done for eons.

All you have to do is feed/water and clean cages. Oh and harvest eggs. How dang easy is that. And what is so very funny, its less work and easy to do. With far more margin of error.

Its the narrowing of choices that bothers snakes and limits them. Their entire life is based on them choosing temps, humidity, sun exposure, contact types(things they touch, like substrate, rock type and texture, wood type and texture, etc) Each population has a certain feel they look for in nature. Overall, they are similar to eachother but not exactly alike.

What really bothers me is, after all these years, people(keepers) think if I follow this recipe, then anything that goes wrong is the snakes fault. Afterall its a pyro or scarlet king. Yet in nature these snakes do very well, as well as any other colubrid. So its not the snakes fault if we are so lazy will not not attempt to fit are cages to the species we are working with. Cheers

Believe it or not I would have to agree with you. Simplicity is not in the human brain as we can tell this when we become adults and try to help our 1st graders with the simpliest form of work. I am one to say" its not that easy is it???"

With that being the answer now the question becomes how do we offer this in such different climates? I keep four different species now all four have seperate racks,different temp ranges, different access to sunlight(ofcourse through a window, different humidity.For people that live in FL as myself, we have a hard time to get below 78 or 76 in the summer and also real hard to lower the humidity.

Now with the technology that we have today can we build a suitable cage for each species. As the law of averages may not work for certain species.This discussion could go on for ever and their will always be others taking the opposite side, until studies have been performed. But for me I liked the pyro pyro and knobs as well but being my geographical location maybe sticking with other species is best.

I never said its the snakes fault I always take my husbandry and access to what their needs are first.

Also, dropped the snake off for the autopsy today and hopefully should have results in the next couple. I stayed for some to see if there was any tumors or infections visible but to no avail. So I am going to imagine its the access to something she needed that I didn't provide or just she served her purpose and it was her time as the same happens all the time in the human race as well.
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Jimmy Tintle

The deal with the temps makes perfect sense. I chose Arizona Mt kings as pets because that is not only a beautiful species, it's range is closest to mine temperature wise. I live in a small cabin in the Sierra Nevada foothills, heated with a wood stove in the winter. The snakes have big tubs in which they can rest at cool temps or heat up to digest their meals at higher temps over the UTH's. If your pyro could never get to lower than 72 degrees ever than maybe she died of heat stress complicated by being gravid.

I am truly sorry for the loss of your little female. I would be devastated to lose one of my girls.

The benefit of a wide range of temps is, all species can find what they want.

I say this often, I do not know of any snake, or any reptile what is only exposed to one temps, or a narrow temp range. All species live in areas that have much more heat then needed and more cold then needed.

Which means, they life is to fine the temps they need and use them. All species use different temps for different tasks.

So a range of say 65 to 100 will offer whats needed to all species.

Now don't get me wrong, that is not needed everyday of the year. Most reptiles breed in the spring, or wet season, for one reason, both cool and heat is available. In hot areas, reptiles often breed in the winter. Once summer takes over, then all they do if feed. They have too or they will burn up to much energy. So once the breeding season is over, then higher temps are used to recharge their batteries.

Where you come from, either do not add heat, or use an air conditioner to set a base temp in your room or area.

Once I was working in New Orleans rebuilding the zoo and I had to install an air conditioner on the closet door. It worked. That was back in 1979 and I produced pyros, and several several species mexican kings, as well as lots of getula. Cheers