Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My MBK's copulated on April 4,7,and 11. On the 11th when I introduced the male he bit her and started constricting so I separated them and fed the male 5 mice. I reintroduced about 2 hours later and her bit her trying to copulate but she was fighting it. After about 6 hours she gave in and they were connected for about 2 hours. She's starting to look really fat so I put them back together and he went after her to breed but she flipped out coiling up and flipping her tail around worse than I've ever seen it. The other thing is her appetite is diminishing and his is increasing. Could this mean the job is done? Rainer I know what you going to say, but I put them together everyday without any problems until the other day. No doubt in my mind he was trying to eat her. Coiled several times and squeezing HARD.

She's done.......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

The problem from the beginning is that you don't keep them together and keep emoving the male. By introducing the male all the time you will have problems like you are having.

If you think she is gravid just leave the male out. Ten days after she sheds she will lay.

The problem now is you don't know if she is gravid or just ovulating.
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

When I've left them together they show no interest towards each other, that and the worry of waking up with one really fat snake or a dead snake regurged. I've kept them together overnight a few times but no action. I wake up a lot during the night so I checked on them, no lights other than the fish tank light so I would not be disturbing them. She ate 5 small mice on the 5th, and 6 small mice on the 8th. Now She's not showing much interest in food. I offered 3 small mice to her tonight and she has no interest. Thank god I have a GBK (blairs) that is a garbage disposal!

Soundds like she is gravid. Just set her up with a nesting area in a couple weeks.
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

"She ate 5 small mice on the 5th, and 6 small mice on the 8th. Now She's not showing much interest in food."

Am I reading that right? She ate 11 food items in 3 days? And 3 days after that you're surprised she didn't eat the other 3 mice you offered her? Do you normally feed her 5 or 6 mice every 3 days? Gravid or not, unless you're feeding her pinks, I can't see it as a surprise she's not interested in food. She must be just as much of a trashcan as the GBK you mentioned. And I thought I fed alot.
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Brian

www.serpenteer.com

Yeah, at that rate, the snake will be laying a huge pile of mice instead of eggs!......GEEEZ!

Seems like everyone thinks a "stuffed sausage" is healthier for some reason. I can assure them this is not the case, no matter how much people want to argue this.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Seems like everyone thinks a "stuffed sausage" is healthier for some reason. I can assure them this is not the case, no matter how much people want to argue this.

Doug,
Herpetoculture is what we do and we look to breeding successes as a measuring rod to guage a snakes health. In other words we cannot provide optinum conditions. But if a snake reproduces we have done the best we can do for the snake. Reproduction success can be measured in many ways which i will go into below. Again this info is not really for you (because you know it already)but for other readers to undertsnd or misunderstand by your comments.

First off, for someone who denies feeding often you seemed to have raised the high yellow brooksi you got from me at daytona in record time.

The arguement never was to have a "stuffed sausage" but that snakes need to eat WHEN they want and giving them choices. With the exception of FULLY GROWN-CAPTIVE snakes. A growing young sub-adult or small adult needs to get stuffed . This will not hurt them. Also as breeding efforts continue we are seeing more double and even triple clutches females. So to clrify it is the females that need to be fed if you want to support the snake. Also an adult KINGSNAKE in a cage that is not used for breeding will get obese. That is a fact die to almost zero excerise and no expenture of calories. Expenditures like calcium and protien have to produce at least 2 clucthes during the summer. Going off feed as well as the males who smell pherones and can go off feed for 2-3 months. Not to mention the FORCED brumation people put their snakes into for an additional 3 months out of the year.

It has also been my experience that those with limited feedings (ie "schedules" end up with snakes that remain finicky all their lives. They never seem to take off and stay healthy or live as long as those fed when the snake wants... again, taking into account the snakes are :

growing
Brumated
Bred

Remember that captive conditions in general are a far cry from the wild. So we need to support the snake in any way we can. With the years myself and you have been doing this i am sure we both see more snakes that do not live long because of weekly or bi-weekly feedings. Some make it. Most don't live long and healthy lives. So which is the better route? On a public forum people get the wrong idea as they think weekly feedings of one or two mice a week is all the snakes need. Same goes with kingsnakes we see pop up here all the time that are 2-3 years old and still feeding on fuzzies. Most of those have the bones sticking out on their back and will never really take to feedings as their poor systems and unhealthy condition will keep preventing them from eating and reproiducing.

Of course this does not apply to every species. But we are on Kingsnake forum and such applies to common kingnskes in general. Though i would prefer to include ratsnakes, pits and Milksnakes in this catgagory.
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

Just happened to see this. thought it was relevant to the discussion.

I know that you are talking primarily about people breeding their snakes.

> With the years myself and you have been doing this i am sure we both see more snakes that do not live long because of weekly or bi-weekly feedings. Some make it. Most don't live long and healthy lives. So which is the better route? On a public <

I certainly have to yeild on this to folks with more experience like FR etc. But as a person that has helped out twith a local nature center where the snakes weren't bred and were fed a weekly diet, I saw many of those animals live in excess of 18 to 20 years. Same with folks that have had Milks and Kings they occassionally bred but mostly kept as pets. My experience is that most folks simply change focus after a 5 or 10 years and get risd of their animals and there are always going to be the folks who don't take good care of their animals and cram them into dirty little cages. It's unfortunate but many of us have seen it. Those animals at the nature center also lived 20 years or so on corn cob! guess no one told them they would die of impaction from it! LOL

I think everyone missed the point of feeding GROWING snakes and BREEDING snakes. Large adults can be kept alive on a minimum diet since they don't breed and excercise.They don't have to produce eggs. They don't seek a mate. they don't hunt. etc, etc..

most of these snakes are also kept in marginal conditions with almost zero temp range.I know rosy boas and kingsnakes in nature centers that have been kept alive for a long time. They never bred and hardly move.

It is obvious a female that ovulates and oproduces eggs needs to be fed the heck out of. That is the pinnacle of keeping snakes in a box. It means success to the highest degree possible at this time.

Meanwhile i am working on triple clutching my Florida kings again this year.
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

I guess FR should make a video to be legit.
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

I don't care which angle you take, if you are feeding 11 mice in 3 days, and then trying 3 more in another 3 days, one of two things is happening. Overfeeding, or you need to adjust your prey size.

I agree with both sides of the feeding argument in different situations. It also matters VERY MUCH the species we are talking about. But since it's kingsnakes here, let's assume it's OK to feed often.

I have a few animals that are over 10 years old, these are pets, and are not breeding stock. They get fed an appropriate sized meal once every 1 or 2 weeks. I'm not real strict on the regimen, sometimes may be longer or a shorter. Either way, these are perfectly healthy animals, and I feel if I fed them more, it would do them more harm than good, since they are not stressed by a breeding season.

I have other snakes, both sub-adult and breeding adult, that I feed more often. Depending on time of year they may get fed every 5 days or so, again may be a day or two different at times. These are growing and or breeding animals, undergoing the stress of those processes. They would probably respond poorly if I fed them every 2 weeks. And I have snakes that could easily thrive if you fed them an APPROPRIATE sized meal every 3 days, but they would eventually skip some meals.

In either of those scenarios, there is no way these snakes should be eating the total number of mice we're talking about. I don't think any snake I've ever owned could eat at that kind of pace, if feeding the right sized meal. If that snake had eaten the last offering, it would have eaten 14 mice in 6 days!!!!! Maybe if it were an adult Jungle Carpet Python that refused rats, but that's an example of a snake that wouldn't eat the right sized item. Another post here mentioned adult Kingsnakes being fed fuzzies, and there bones were sticking out, once again, not an appropriate sized meal. Take a 7 foot boa, would you try to feed it 14 large rats a week? Even that snake couldn't take it.

You are eventually either going to see a regurge, or a fasting period if you are feeding at that rate. And actually, that was the real meaning of my initial post, how can you be surprised if your snake won't eat those last 3 mice, if it's already had 11 that week.
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Brian Suter

www.serpenteer.com

.....simple as that!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Just to clarify, she's 4' long and the mice which I called small mice were what most would consider large fuzzies. To clarify even more the mice are about an inch and a quarter long and about 5/8" thick. Besides the fact, it almost seems impossible to overfeed a colubrid if temps are correct. Sorry if my misinformation gave you the opportunity to make me the brunt of your joke.

Sorry if I came across like an a$$. Bad day at work today. Everything I've read here and in books says feed her as much as she will eat. She used to be a finicky eater (her whole life) eating only about 1 or 2 small mice a week. Again Brian, sorry for coming across like that.

Kingboa, I have to disagree with the statement that you cannot overfeed colubrids. Colubrids, and probably all organisms for that matter, can be impacted by over eating and being overweight. Problems with fatty livers and kidneys and general organ failure due to fat accumulation can affect snakes just like people. Power feeding snakes is a breeder induced activitity to minimize the amount of time required for a snake to go from "useless" to "usefull" in their breeding colonies. Do you really think snakes in the wild feed the regularly? Sure, great for double and triple clutching to make the number of babies required for a business, but not necessarily natures way of doing things. I cannot agree with Bluerosys statement that this breeding success is a direct correlation to the general health of the animal. I do not feel it is and would really like to see longevity records supporting this activity.

The real problem we have here is NO ONE knows how much a snake eats. I think it was Rainer who brought up the fact a while ago that if a kingsnake runs into a bunch of mice in the wild they will gorge themselves on everything they can find, mice,fuzzies,pinkies, until they are satisfied. I only eat as much as I want, not to stuff myself but to satisfy my appetite. I also have the choice of when to eat, snakes don't. Picture an Ethiopian at Thanksgiving, Do you think he or she is going to eat a dinner and say "I haven't eaten in 3 weeks but I'm full now so I don't want seconds?

kevin

Again, nobody said anything about adult "useless" snakes that do not go through normal cycle periods to breed. A fully grown female can get fat and store that fat around the ovum. making fertilization almost impossible since sperm cannot pass through that area. However since this is possible in pythons and boids, I have never seen this myself in colubrids. Every fat snake turns skinny after laying. Same goes for the brumation period. breeding males brumate and take less food. Especially if females are around.

So lets leave male kingsnakes out of this. It is really the females that are in question to over feed. But a young healthy female...impossible to overfeed.

Snakes are not humans and that is where this debate comparison coincides. Everyone knows a lean human being has a better chance at living a longer life. I would be more worried about humas over feeding and living a short life. that is a more plausable arguement.

And as far as your statement that kings don't eat much in nature. Well they are motly snake feeders. At least the eastern getula are. Cal kings do eat there fair share of snakes as well. They cram a snake down themselves that is sometimes as long, if not longer than they are. You want to guess what that egquals in grams compared to mice?
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

Thanks for helping me on this Rainer. I only mentioned people to show there is a difference in eating habits of snakes, humans, etc. Not every individual is the same. I used to breed boas and the skinnier females did better. Different species reflects different requirements(as you said). Steve

I didn't take it that way, and I wasn't aiming anything at you personally. My original point was, there was no surprise the snake wouldn't eat for you at the last attempt. Then the post turned to feeding in general, I only used the numbers you gave as an example, not to take a shot at you. I tried to say over and over "appropriate sized meal" so that it wouldn't seem that way, I think if you look at the post you'll see that, maybe I just didn't do well enough.

You absolutely can overfeed colubrids, I've seen ridiculously overweight snakes, and I've seen enough people ask why their snake was regurging, only to find out they are feeding the heck out of it. Regurge is a guarantee if you feed to much. Thankfully, it's something Kingsnakes recover from right away, not so at all in a lot of snakes. And not so in a LOT of colubrids.

I guess I'll ask why you are feeding a 4 foot kingsnake fuzzies? That snake should be eating adult mice for sure. If it's a finicky eater, maybe it's telling you something. And even that many small mice add up to a pretty large amount of food in the gut. If you haven't seen a ton of defecation, then it's all still in there.

Sometimes comments get taken wrong on a forum. I sometimes don't like to say anything because you never know how much experience the person you are responding to has. I don't mean to talk down to anyone at all, I actually hope I can sometimes help. You never know if it's someone's first snake, or if someone has a ton of knowledge and you're pissing them off, lol.
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Brian Suter

www.serpenteer.com

She'll eat small mice to medium size at best. I'm feeding her fuzzies because since breeding she prefers them over medium mice. Like I said, she's always been a picky eater. She deficates like clockwork, I feed, she goes. Solid, not runny. She's in good health. I put them together tonight for 2 hours and they showed no interest in each other.