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I've got a question about selective breeding for temper and/or feeding response; has anyone done this, and how well did it work? How many generations did it take to notice a difference? When I breed I'd like try this, particularly with my bigger snakes. I mean color combos are nice and all, but a house snake that'll jump right on F/t is also nice, or a retic that won't go spastic every time you go into his cage...and if all my kings could be as mellow as my florida's that'd rock too.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

>>I've got a question about selective breeding for temper and/or feeding response; has anyone done this, and how well did it work? How many generations did it take to notice a difference? When I breed I'd like try this, particularly with my bigger snakes. I mean color combos are nice and all, but a house snake that'll jump right on F/t is also nice, or a retic that won't go spastic every time you go into his cage...and if all my kings could be as mellow as my florida's that'd rock too.

So...are you asking about the feeding response of the snakes out of the egg? Or an enthusiastic feeding response throughout the lifetime of a snake?

John Cherry has claimed to have bred thayeri for feeding response.....I don't know how many generations it took, but he claims all of his eat readily as hatchlings......
I bred one line of thayeri for 3 generations and still had some stubborn feeders....But never as stubborn as a clutch of Corns I hatched once........Or the those wild collected splendida eggs that hatched...And they say Mexicana and Alterna are hard to get on f/t pinks......lol

What I am getting at is this........I don't think it can be done...Along with all the genetic variables snakes are individualistic too......I think you will always have a couple stubborn feeders out of the egg...and...I have yet to see a snake in my collection that turned down f/t after they have eaten a few prior........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Could it have to do with incubation temps? Just wondering if that could be a possibility.

Hi, Hmmmmmmmmmmmm it already has been done, as pioneer of many of these kingsnake species, the founders were a pain in the back side.

Once in captivity, there is no other option then to select for captive traits. The individuals that do well in our setups, continue, the individuals that do not, are not selected for future breeders.

I once had this conversation with Tracy Barker, we reflected on how easy some of these species breed now, but were a task in the begining. Some were even hard to keep alive.

It was not entirely behavior but how the individuals were treated before we acquired them.

In my case, I would collect my own founder stock and take care of them from the day I picked them up. I would also limit my time in the field. So I could get the animals back and set up.

I had friends that did a lot of collecting, but would spend months in the field and their animals were very very stressed from being in a bag in the back seat of a car for long periods.

Imported animals are normally on their last legs before we would get them. They are normally treated horribly before getting to decent care.

Couple that with level of care. Its very simple that poor care causes feeding problems. For instance, I rarely have problem feeders with such species as mexicana types and pyros. They normally fed on pinks right off.

As mentioned so many times, poor temps and poor humidity is a real problem.

Dehydration is a widespread and chronic problem. And its so easy to test. All you have to do is take a great feeder and withhold water, in short time it will become finicky, then it will stop feeding, then it will die. It will take a while to die, but it eventually will.

Baby snakes are massively out of balance, they have a huge surface area and little mass. Which means they dehydrate hundreds of times faster then adults of the same species.

All thin skinned species place their neonates in areas that are suitable. Like the conditions that hatch eggs are good for neonates. The adults place their eggs where the neonates CAN SURVIVE, not just hatch.

Yet we as keepers take our hatchlings away from the conditions that allowed them to hatch. Cheers

Because it may have already happened with certain lines that have been in captivity awhile.

I know two breeders that worked with pyros, and kept back their best feeding babies, and bred them. Over many years, both breeders produce pyros that eat pinks readily. With at least one of those breeders, his snake room setup has not changed, so cage conditions remained the same, but more and more of the pyro babies come out feeding on unscented pinks.

Not saying it works in all cases, but from the above I would gather it is possible that feed response can be selected for with at least some results.

But I think most people breed for color/pattern, so there isn't alot of data for feed response.

Honduran milks - the hobby Hondurans - seem to have gotten smaller over time. Could be because smaller females need less food to reproduce successfully, which fits with captive feed schedules. Also smaller individuals fit better in sweaterboxes and tiny lay boxes. So perhaps, slightly smaller size has been selected for in captivity with the use of rack systems.

I remember seeing Honduran milks in captivity in the 80s, and they were freakin monsters compared to any I see now. I remember seeing Amealco ruthveni that were offspring of the Lloyd Lemke ruthveni wild-caughts. Those things were enormous as well. In fact, those were the first ruthveni I saw in my life, and I went away thinking ruthveni were big fat tricolor kingsnakes. Years later I got some generic ruthveni, and they grew up to be much smaller than those fat Lemke pig ruthveni. Could be a locality difference or a captive breeding trend towards smaller animals.
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Mark

>>I remember seeing Honduran milks in captivity in the 80s, and they were freakin monsters compared to any I see now. I remember seeing Amealco ruthveni that were offspring of the Lloyd Lemke ruthveni wild-caughts. Those things were enormous as well. In fact, those were the first ruthveni I saw in my life, and I went away thinking ruthveni were big fat tricolor kingsnakes. Years later I got some generic ruthveni, and they grew up to be much smaller than those fat Lemke pig ruthveni. Could be a locality difference or a captive breeding trend towards smaller animals.
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You may be on to something concerning captive size decrease.....

I still think that out of an entire clutch of any species of king snake there will be a stubborn feeder no matter how many generations you line bred it for.....But you could possibly see some improvement in overall percentile of feeders......

BTW......Shannon and I are working with some of those Lemke monster Ruthveni right now (still).......
1.0 27 year old w/c Ruthveni
2.2 Offspring of his
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>BTW......Shannon and I are working with some of those Lemke monster Ruthveni right now (still).......
>>1.0 27 year old w/c Ruthveni
>>2.2 Offspring of his
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Awesome, glad to hear it, great looking snakes those are. May it go well.
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Mark

>>>>BTW......Shannon and I are working with some of those Lemke monster Ruthveni right now (still).......
>>>>1.0 27 year old w/c Ruthveni
>>>>2.2 Offspring of his
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>>Awesome, glad to hear it, great looking snakes those are. May it go well.
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>>Mark
Thanks for wishing us luck......They are cool snakes and are mighty eaters......The 27 year old(W/C by Lloyd in 1983) has cataracts in both eyes, can't see worth a damn but LOVES to eat......

BTW....at the age of 25 he bred......I gave him the year off but may try him again next year......It's up to Shannon though since they aren't mine.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com