Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi.

I'm new to the complex world of colubrid morphs, and am trying to figure out what the best color variation would be for what I am looking for. I am trying to find an all-white kingsnake, and am getting turned around in circles with all of the different morph/breeder terms -- albino banana phase, high-white, blizzard, etc.

I've been told contradicting things by a few breeders I've spoken to, and am not sure if this is because they are looking to make a sale on the morphs they breed, or if it is genuinely that the terms are very "user specific", with different breeding groups drawing from different lexicons. I get that there is a complex set of genetic study going on in the high-end breeding culture here, and that's sort of where I get lost.

So basically I'm asking for help trying to sort through this.

Suggestions on what direction I should take? Clarification of terms? Or even just a basic description of the ones most likely to fit the bill for what I'm looking for? (I'd like to hear physical descriptions of what the morphs look like as younglings vs adults, etc) All of the information I've found so far on the internet seems to assume a great deal of knowledge going in, which I don't have. I'm great with the care and husbandry side of herp stuff, but this is an end of the field I've never played on.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

Sorry i did not get a chance to respond to your email. It had a lot of questions and would take more explanation than I am about to give here. My guess is you are statring out in kings and don't know much about what is out there and prices. So i am sure you are not about tro dop $10,000.00 on a pair of white kingsnakes. I am going to guess in the $50-$100 range and there are some avaliable but they have apattern and that is what you said you did not want in your email.

Since you asked if there are any white kingsnakes that DO NOT have a pattern. the simple answer is only one.. and that is the florida king white brooks. It will be in the $5000. range. this year. That is the only completly white kingsnake i know of. The hypo whitesides get fairly white as adults and so do cal kings. But they still have a pattern.

Here is a Amelanistic bannana Cal king.probaly in the $50. range but they get yellow.

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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

Rainer there are more snakes out there than just Brooksi/Floridana......Come on man.....

Check out the Leucistic Alterna.......Chris Baubel......

And the Snow Splendida......Don Shores
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

John,
He asked me a question in email which i ave not had time to respond to. Today alone i have had over 50 emails which i am still currently working on.

I was responding to his post here even though he was more specific in his email. Whae he is looking for is "a crisp white with no other markings" and specifically asked about Cal king and florida kings morphs..
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

Okay...
This is what I was responding to.....

"That is the only completly white kingsnake i know of."
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Okay...
This is what I was responding to.....

"That is the only completly white kingsnake i know of."

The Bible says..

"Judas hung himself"

"Go therefore and do likewise"

LOL! Just kidding with you!

I was talking in context of the Cal kings and Florida kings and responding partly to his email. Sorry about the my confusion.

Those Leucistic Gray bands are new must be up there in the high price range as well. Do you have an idea what they will go for this year?
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

Chris Baubel is selling one for an outrageous price....I think it was $5K but I may be wrong........The ad was on the alterna classifieds two days ago but is now gone.....
I think they are worth it....for a while......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Ithink when people sell snakes that high it's for several reasons. One, they rteally don't want to sell it but if some one gives them that amount they will. Two, this makes people think they can make big bucks by buying the much cheaper Hets and then sell the offspring for big bucks. But usually the breeder keeps a huge amount of hold backs and then floods the market with his snakes and forces the prices to drop before other breeders can sell their snakes. Just a theory?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I think when people sell snakes that high it's for several reasons. One, they rteally don't want to sell it but if some one gives them that amount they will. Two, this makes people think they can make big bucks by buying the much cheaper Hets and then sell the offspring for big bucks. But usually the breeder keeps a huge amount of hold backs and then floods the market with his snakes and forces the prices to drop before other breeders can sell their snakes. Just a theory

That theory does not work anymore. people know when you are holding back stuff. the people that are interested in a high end morph usually find out how many were produced by that breeder. When i sell high end animals it is usually the second or thrid i ever produced. People that have an interst know this and keep their ear to the ground.

I know of one person today that is taking your theory into practise. he had 5 new morphs and a high profile breeder oferred him $15,000. each for 3 of his animals. The seller decided to holdback the 3 and one died a month later causing him to lose $15,000. . he belives he can produce a large amount and sell them at one time when he is able to produce large number. But that is simply not going to happen because people INVESTING in high end animals are not going to go for that.They know what is going on. So what will happen is he will have to sell 3 or 4 to make up for the price of one and add in the loss he already has and he is way behind as those babies will only take two years and the prices will drop by 50% again. This is a sure way to crash a market price on a particular new morph.

another mistake he made is he is not a known breeder. by sharing a high end rare morph with a high profile breeder and others the advertisement is made and more people are aware of that paticual morph. thus interest will be higher and people will seek the originator or the person that best suits them to purchase from.

best thing to do when producing a new morph is share that with a few other people. Then everyone is equal on the price a couple years down the line. This allows the values not to drop and everyone gets a good return.

Also, hets are the best investment. especially if the traits hold something not seen yet or there is only one in existence and it is a female becasuse not to many hets can be produced. The het issue has been discussed at length here in previous threads and most people underestimate the returns of hets. If it is something brand new you can go from a small investment to big bucks with no or hardly any competion. Most savy breeders seek these types of investments out. Not so much with the general public.

IMO, Co-dom traits are not a good investment because prices fall after too many animals are produce to quickly.We have seen this with the leapard geckos and ball pythons. The recessive traits are the best investment.
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

As an outsider I am amazed at all the fuss over Ball Pythons and their mophs! cool little snake for sure with managable size,good disposition and easy maintenance but as an outsider They all look A LOT alike. The leucistics and Albinos are eye catching for sure but after a while the others seem so hardly set off from one another to justify that much money! Not meaning to insult any of you that are into them, we all have our likes and dislikes but Wow!, You can't even surf You Tube for snake collections,racks or cages without wall to wall REALLY EXPENSIVE Ball Python!

Oh well.. Sorry. To each his own

I admit there are some very beutiful BP's but I just can't erase the memories of growing up and hating BP's. I had so many people calling me to help them with their snake that wouldn't eat. My first question was always, "is it a Ball Python"? I do like some of the peis and the all white ones with black eyes, and of course the Panda, but I would not pay too much for one.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Actually Judas fell on his sword but what is the white Brooks? A snow?

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Thanks to both of you for your input.

I am new to kingsnake morphs, and morphs in general -- my background is in rescuing larged abused, abandoned and neglected constrictors, rehabilitating and rehoming them. I am rather taken with the kings that I have seen and am trying to make sense of all the various terms, morphs, and breeder/herp lingo -- which is pretty confusing to come into. There doesn't seem to be a lexicon anywhere that gives a simple explanation for people who aren't as interested in pursuing the genetics route with their snakes -- which is why I'm looking for some support in figuring this out. It's pretty clear that you guys know a tremendous amount about the snakes, and I'd just like to get some of that highly specialized knowledge translated into more lay-person terms.

What I said in my email, which I don't have the exact text from, is more or less the same thing that I said here. Being "new" to this, and only having various quality photographs from websites that usually lack descriptions other than a morph name to go on, I can only communicate what is "ideal" for me, based on what I know. Which, when it comes to the available morphs/colors, isn't as much as I would like. So, "ideally", I am looking for a white kingsnake with no markings, or very minimal marking, or other colors -- or one that will grow close to this. My perfect choice would be a crisp white (like acrylic "titanium white" from an artist's palette) but a bone-white, egg-shell white, etc would be fine.

I've seen pictures on breeders websites of various snakes that are (or appear) all-white, but usually these pictures lack descriptions, and most of them are of young snakes rather than full-grown adults.

A contact I spoke to earlier today highly advised an "albino banana phase california king", which means very little to me. Another said "blizzard is the way to go". You are right in assuming that I am not looking to throw $10k on my first kingsnake, but the "$50-300" range is comfortable. So I guess, to simplify this down, here is what I am hoping for some help with:

- What are some of the king morphs that fall into the "generally white" category? How do they differ from one another in coloration, pattern, and price? (e.g. "A blizzard cal king is born looking rather pinkish, but develops into a bone-white as they age into adulthood", or something. I don't know if that is true...)
- Where is a good place to find them? Recommended breeders/suppliers of particular species would be great.

Thanks in advance -- I really appreciate you taking the time to help. I know I've come to the expert folks and am asking intro questions, but I can't seem to find them anywhere else. (Intro people don't seem to know about the more hard to come by morphs.)

I'm just trying to establish a baseline set of terms to work with -- ideally with an understanding of what they mean and look like. Thanks guys

Here are some herp related terms that might be useful now and then. On the other hand, some of these could even confuse you more actually

but many of them will be very comprehendable for you regardless.

HERP TERMINOLOGY

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Andrew, If you don't mind albinos then probably a blizzard is what you are looking for.They hatch out kinda pink but turn solid snow white in a couple sheds.
I couldn't find a pic of a adult but here are some hatchlings.

L8r Shannon

>>Andrew, If you don't mind albinos then probably a blizzard is what you are looking for.They hatch out kinda pink but turn solid snow white in a couple sheds.
>>I couldn't find a pic of a adult but here are some hatchlings.

Those are KILLER.....
Another white kingsnake other than a Floridana....Hmmmmmm....

Just screwin with ya Rainer.....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Too funny!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I always thought the Blixzards had a pattern. Hence the word "blizzard. Guess i was wrong.

What are the ingredients? A Blizzard cornsnake is anerythrisim type B X Amelanistic. Is there a anerythristic Calif. Kingsnake?

Whatever those are they are nice!
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

Cal King Blizzards are albino & hypermelanistic (Mendota, Davis, Baja etc)

Yes, they are pink when hatched and eventually turn to white, and although some appear to be patternless, I have taken pics of them outside without a flash and have notice a hint of yellow pattern.

Kerby...

Oh yeah...I forgot to add....

There's yet ANOTHER solid white kingsnake....

There are some Amelanistic Thayeri hybrids produced by crossing a Pastel King (Amel Ruthveni X Thayeri) then bred to solid black melanistic thayeri.
When these double hets are bred they produce Amel Mels......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

>>.
>>-----
>>TomsSnakes.com
>>twitter.com/TomsSnakes
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Hey there, welcome to it! Now the first thing you gotta figure is the size and cost of your project. Like anything else, good planning from the start is usually best way to go about it. You have emailed Rainer, a great place to start but the day someone spends that kind of $$ on an all white snake...will be the first.
The one constant in breeding is change. You change, what you like changes, the way you keep your animals will likely change so try to be flexible. Given the choice of really 2 "complexs"(Florida/California), its usually dependant if you are a east coast or west coast guy. I think Florida kings have a bit more color variability which can lend itself to more different morphs/types.
Regardless of what you think are neat morphs now, chances are by the time you raise up babies of your own your tastes may change. Assuming the positive, I would recommend you find your favorite DOUBLE RECESSIVE morph(snow and ghost are the most available)and pick up a adult male right after the breeding season. Finding females can be a little more difficult, but again finding them right after the breeding season makes em cost effective. The females can be a little more varied, finding double hets would be ideal for you though. This way all the normals you produce you will know 100% on the genetics and you could produce 4 different types in a single clutch! THAT is what makes breeding fun! One male can service 2-3 females.
Now if your budget allows, I would also pick up a second set of kings, babies. You can spend the next few months checking out what the market has to offer, remember that most breeders have 2nd clutches so you dont have to be the first to get in on something because you will pay($$) for it,lol. Raising these to size will give you more of an attachment with individual animals. You will have adults to practice with and babies to raise up, maybe produce that triple morph white whale! Personally, there are all white snakes out there in other species....ball pythons, boas, cornsnakes, gopher snakes etc. All white snakes end up looking pretty much alike so enjoy the variability that kingsnakes supply.

You have emailed Rainer, a great place to start but the day someone spends that kind of $$ on an all white snake...will be the first.

hmmmm, obviously this statement is false.. and kinda ridiculous. Not sure what your intent is here...

BTW serious cash is still reserved for the Ball pythons. Oh and now Hognoses. Would you beleive as much as $20,000 for a single hognose? Yes its true. Surely Florida king morphs are on the far cheap end of the scale. And yes they have sold for that much.
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

Rainer, easy does it. Read the whole followup not just a line. All white snakes are pretty boring, put a king/hog/rat/ball/boa down next to each other and you can only tell the difference if you are an expert. I am not the only one to think like this, and if you sold one for that crazy amount of money...good for you.

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your response. There's a little bit of confusion, though -- I am not interested in breeding king snakes, but in having one as a pet. If I get into breeding at any point, it will be down the road after much research -- but at present that is not an interest I am pursuing.

Quite simply I'm just looking for a white king, as close to all white and patternless as possible. I have an ideal image in mind but flexibility with what is out there. I've read little blurbs on breeder's websites about certain morphs (such as the blizzard morph) which explain that they will grow to be a patternless white. What I haven't found is a lot of consistency amongst the people I've spoken to, which is what I am trying to find some clarity on.

I'm not as interested in the snake's genetic background, or the traits it could carry as a breeder -- I'm just interested in a beautiful pet who comes close to the image that I have in mind.

Thanks for your help!

I recomend you check with Kerby. He posts here under that username and is our resident cal king morph expert. He may have something that meets your criteria. he breeds more new Cal king morpsh than anybody and is so far ahead on projects it is mind boggling.

maybe someone here can direct you to his website which escapes me for the moment. Or maybe he will chime in here in a bit.
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

www. lonesomevalleyreptiles dot com
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

My computer went down in the middle of the reply, guess I got crossed up with the last post who asked about this info. Sorry.

Welcome to the Kingsnake world, I don't have, or have seen a pure white King, but this guy I got from Shannon Brown is pretty close. He has a little pink on his head, and is still white as snow at three years of age with no sign's of turning yellow yet. Kerby Ross as some that are real close to pure white give him a shout. Take Care Martin

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the pics and info! Beautiful snake -- wonderful coloration. That is fairly spot on for something I would be aiming for. What color variation/morph is that?

It was sold to me as a High White Albino Cal King, from Shannon Brown. He is my favorite Snake, I like your self just have Kings as Pets, My partner Frank Retes doe's all the hard work of breeding these guys. Thanks for the nice comments. Martin

Beautiful, thank you so much Martin. Extremely helpful!

You should talk to Don & Sally Shores, of Shores Enuff Snakes. They also have some almost pure white Kings. Here is a photo of one of there's. Good luck. Martin

I've already emailed them and had one response -- so looking good on that front. I feel very good about what I saw on their website.

Much of what I am doing right now is information gathering, though I do plan to move on to the purchase soon. It is so tempting to just rush into it in the excitement, but I feel good about putting in the time to learn as much of the herp/breeder/morph world as I can before jumping in with such a special snake.

I'm enthralled by the white kings at Shores Enuff. Totally in love! Just wanting to be sure I have a good understanding of what the young ones will grow up to be. (They have one listed now that I am VERY excited about, available -- a male blizzard. I will likely place an order for him actually, once I verify that I have a correct understanding of how his color will develop as he ages.)

Thanks again.

Andrew

Andrew,

that is the snake i recomended and showed you a picture of in the very first post.

The ones with the most white is still all about selective breeding- heres why..

The bannana king was created first to develop a high yellow or breed out the black -NO BLACK- cal king by using Newport phase and San Diego stripe morphs.The aformentioned two locales are yellow coastal phase Cal kings.. Then the Desert Cal king (white banded-not yellow) was line bred into the Bannana Cal king trait creating a high white Cal kings which some referred to as snbow.. Finally that high white cal king was bred into the amelanistic gene. The yellow still shows up on some neonates so it is still about selectivly breeding the pair you choose back to one another.

It's hard to tell from the neonates what they will eventually look like even if the parents are fairly white.

I would compare a clutch and pick the whitest looking ones because they vary within the clutch from one end of the spectrum to the other. The whitest are the best ones and usually the ones the breeder asks the most for or holds back. If this is the snake you chooses try and get them early when they hatch this season or the best will be gone.
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

That statement is a little off. First I developed high yellow kings, then seperately, developed high white. At first, at least in my effort, the high yellow was not bred into high white and that of course means it did not have to be bred out.

Of course most black and white cal kings have some yellow on the vender. But not all. So yes, some yellow on the vender can occur.

After the project left my hands then these high whites were bred into the melinistic cal king line. Cheers

That statement is a little off. First I developed high yellow kings, then seperately, developed high white. At first, at least in my effort, the high yellow was not bred into high white and that of course means it did not have to be bred out.

After the project left my hands then these high whites were bred into the melinistic cal king line. Cheers

Thanks FR for the full statement. i was a little tired when i typed that late last night and just wanted to shortcut it and not type that much. It does have a long history of selective breeding to get the the point of what we have today. and yes the deserts have yellow on the bottom etc. I wonder how many people actually are interested in knowing how they came about. I think it should be properly recorded as the bananna comes up a lot on here and in the future will be a mainstay of Cal king morphs.
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

I've posted her photo here before a few times in the past, but in the early 90's, I searched high and low the ENTIRE afternoon at the Orlando Expo(Twin Tower's) to finally locate a killer female 50-50 that had a snow white venter that wasn't beige, cream, or yellowish. Not to mention a solid "jet-black", not brown on the dorsum, with the lightest colored skin possible between her scales too. Man!,...did that take some browsing to finally get the perfect one!

When bred to the awesome male I had lined-up for her, the offspring were absolutely STUNNING!!. Wish I had more pics though!,........bummer.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah, when you find them in the wild they all have yellow or green sides that extends to the belly. Finding a captive bred one with white on the ventrals is a great testament on selective breeding. As shown by your efforts of knowing what to look for Doug.

Next time you show an interest in a snake at daytona I am going to take a closer look. LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say "but I was told by others to do thus" or that "virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.

Wow. That's beautiful. In the 90's I was only able to find a brown and white with no yellow also on the sides. Here I thought I was a little extreme to look hard for that. Nice to know there are other folks that intense. LOL

Thanks Bob!,.....glad you like that pretty girl too.

Yeah, Shannon Brown and I are ALWAYS discussing little details about things we see out there. And especially about people's misidentifying animals, etc...

Seems like we can both easily pick out things that just "don't belong". Sort of like that thing we all used to do in elementary school as kids!

regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

LOL!,....yeah, I hear ya Rainer,..... many folks just don't seem to see or pay attention to certain details about alot of things. It has always been like that too as you know.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Oh wow, awesome! Thanks for the list of terms -- this will come in handy.

Thanks much!

That's great, I glad to here it, I got two of those from Don last year, they are awesome snakes! every time they shed they get whiter and they are great eater's. Martin

I don't really have much helpful info to give you, but my bet would be on getting a Blizzard California Kingsnake. I am also partial to the high white snakes, and plan to get a pair of Blizzards some day. Here are a couple High Whites that I produced in 2009... holdbacks, of course.

Good luck in your search!!
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Thanks everyone, for all the help. I've placed my order with Shores Enuff after some correspondence with Don. Very excited. I'll be sharing images when I can

>>Thanks everyone, for all the help. I've placed my order with Shores Enuff after some correspondence with Don. Very excited. I'll be sharing images when I can

Great choice....
Don is a great guy.....IMHO.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com