Reptile & Amphibian Forums

From the HerpDigest Volume # 10 Issue #18 4/16/09

3) Moving Tortoises To Cost Titusville $102K - Threatened Species Must Be Relocated Before Water Project Can Continue
By Dave Berman • Florida Today • April 14, 2010

TITUSVILLE — The city council on Tuesday unanimously approved paying $102,100 to relocate 60 gopher tortoises found at the site of a water transmission main construction project -- or more than $1,700 per tortoise.

Because gopher tortoises are a threatened species, Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission regulations require that their locations are surveyed and, as necessary, the tortoises are relocated to a suitable alternate site.

"I believe the costs are reasonable," said John Peterson, water resources manager for the Titusville Water Resources Department. "This is not something that we routinely do here, but it is not unusual for gopher tortoises to be found on construction sites."

In January, the city council approved spending $38,500 on the tortoise relocations: $16,800 to Dyer, Riddle, Mills & Precourt of Orlando for the surveying, permitting, excavation and relocation of 20 gopher tortoises; and $21,700 for site fees to a property owner where the turtles will be relocated and to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission in additional fees.

But DRMP later conducted a detailed field survey, and more gopher tortoises than anticipated were found at the construction site, which extend south from near the Volusia County line to Titusville. That means the city will pay $20,900 more to the company and $42,700 more in fees to move an additional 40 tortoises.

Peterson said the contract with DRMP is less expensive than what the other company the city contacted would have charged for the work.

The water transmission main is, in effect, a pipeline that will transmit water from a new well field Titusville is developing in North Brevard County -- extending south from near the Volusia County line to the city's Mourning Dove Water Treatment Plant on Garden Street.

The $5.6 million project started last month and is expected to be completed by the end of the year, Peterson said.

Peterson said all the tortoise sites are outside the Titusville city limits, but because it is a city construction project, Titusville is responsible for paying to relocate them.

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I am interested in comments on this, especially from Florida Herpers. Does this sound reasonable? I know it is a good idea and necessary.
My question is this -- 1) If the tortoises are homers, and I believe they are, wouldn't relocating them be somewhat ineffective? Wouldn't confining them and breeding new generations near the new home location ensure headstarted generations would be more prone to stick around, rather than head for home and die by vehicular homicide.
Couldn't things be done in a manner such as this at comparable or less cost?

One more question -- 2) Does the new location(s) have an existing Gopher population and can the new location(s) handle the excess population of new arrivals? Will the existing resources support the additional tortoises?

There has been issues in relocating California Gophers along these lines.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

No mention if they are/can be tested for a known U R virus they carry? I can think of some herp societes/volenteers. in Fl that would do it for free. In fact I think its been done before. Home builders until resent times just payed a fine to cover them up!( no kidding by the hundreds, many times over. Where was PETA then. Lets see... backho rental, couple of buddy's cold beer.....I'll do it for just a 100 large cash, be done in two days. Vic

I can think of some herp societes/volenteers. in Fl that would do it for free. In fact I think its been done before.

Instead of the city PAYING for relocation with questionable outcome, they could adopt out the tortoises (under strict guidelines, for example thorough vetting of applicants and pledge for breeding program participation) for a fee--tortoises go to good homes, actually making MORE tortoises, don't risk introducing pathogens to an existing population (at the relocation site), and the city actually MAKES money instead of SPENDS money.

Of course, this doesn't address the real problem (habitat loss), and I'm sure the PeTA crowd would go nuts because "animals belong in the wild" regardless of unintended consequences (disease, homing instinct leading to reoad mortality, etc).
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

In the early 80's I ask the State of Fl.if I could capture and keep the Gopher tortoises that were fleeing the heavy land development of Duval county Fl. were I lived, worked in construction, and saw daily the mass movment of the G.T.(the clear cutting day's of cooky cutter homes). I stated "only the G.T.crossing roads to other ares being distroyed would be captured. I had the land to do it and that I'd give them the offspring for them to replace the dwendling population they kept talking about. Other land owners said they would do the same with no intent of selling,eating or dumping them at random places. This was before the U.R.V. Their answer, word for word was, "we dont permit the taking of G.T.from the forest". That was it, it said nothing else! Fast forward fifteen years. I get a letter Dear Mr.Morgan would you be intrested in taking G.T. from unknow areas that people find on the road and keep bringing to us, as we are concerned of spreading a virus they may have. I told them I was working with an Asian Tortoise now and could not risk the contamanation. Habitat distruction, deadly virus, it would have been nice to have a closed colony from myself and others but they blew us off. This has bothered me for some thirty years now. As Tom said the G.T.best friend, Ray Ashton just left us last month. Vic Morgan.........pic when being inspected by the Fl.f and w com.one time the agent asked me to drag some of these out of their hut so she could make sure they were not Gopher torts.

When I was a kid on a car trip vacation in Florida in the late 60's, I remember seeing Gopher burrows on some of the road cuts along the highway. Apparently, this was chosen habitat. Safe I guess, so long as they didn't wander to far down the hill into the road.
Do I remember correctly?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Yep, The State plants gome grass on the easment they like. You do see them on back roads that are not paved. Out there where the Black Jack Oak lives!. Vic

I thought URI was proven to not be a disease by Dr Jacobsen? Maybe I misunderstood the results.

URI is treated here in my area by turning the sprinklers off. Dry the yard and all the snotty noses go away.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

Well, we've got at least one professor here, at Texas State University making a living off studying it in Texas Tortoises and Texas Tortoises in general.
I could have sworn he said [on the record], it was one of the factors contributing to the continual decline in Texas Tortoise populations here in Texas. Maybe I misunderstood him.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John,

Here you are-this should answer most of your questions:

http://www.ashtonbiodiversity.org/gopher-tortoise-relocation.php
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

That's good stuff! Thanks Brad.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Original study (abstract)from which the relocation guidelines were adapted:

http://www.uga.edu/srel/Reprint/2903.htm

I have a copy of the full paper: interesting stuff.

Of course, some may observe that this was done at SREL, which means it can't be trusted, right? LOL.

Don't know Steph. Need to do my homework, study and learn a little bit more on this stuff. Honestly, not even finished with the entire thing.
I'm all for realistic honest straightforward solutions. First thing we've got to do is take the politics out, to get down to real causes and conditions, before we can come up with any meaningful solutions.
I failed to stop for a turtle on the highway today and saw on my way back that it was very dead. Also saw 4 other dead turtles on the road today. That's within about 20 miles of roadway in one day's time. How many miles of pavement are there in this country, anyway. Have also seen multiples of 3 species of snake dead this past week.
Are the Herpers really the bad guys here. I think not?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

My old friend Ray Ashton, a champion of Wild Florida and the Gopher Tortoise's best friend passed away recently. We were friends for almost 40 years and I will miss him......The last time I went to see him last year he had been admitted to the Hospital and I put off our meeting alas to never see him again....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

This guy speaks to some really good stuff the "anti-python/pythons destroying the Everglades" people should read.
Intelligent and well thought. Simply well done.
So much there. Admittedly, I'm just beginning.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

By the way, I now live right smack dab in the middle of a Xeric Black Jack Oak and Hickory sandhill scrub habitat.
A few Live Oaks on the flats along with Post Oak and Mesquite. No naturally occurring pines that I can see.
A very cool little ecological niche/boime. Bring on the tortoises. The local Texas Tortoises may have already been extirpated from around here. Guess I'll find out sooner or later.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

That black jack makes the best BBQ fire wood on the planit! Vic

Everybody burns Mesquite or Hickory. Got plenty of Black Jack. Some already cut. I'll try it out.
By the way, the Spadefoot Toads are aggregating, calling, and breeding en mass right now. Even in Broad daylight. We've had a lot of rain recently. So cool! Man, I just love it here. This is Herper Heaven.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Yep, One may have hundreds of them setting underground, Then a soaking rain and their everwhere. I'm hopping the freezes this year killed off the Cuban Tree frog. vic

John, the other day , in the marsh/pond behind my house, I watched 2 massive snappers mating, watched by a painted turtle. There was a beaver 10' away.

And your telling this to a guy with mesquite trees on his property. lol.

Ray was one of the greats. I did not know him personally, but he was a mentor to someone whom I've considered a mentor, and I've heard many great stories of his exploits.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Is this like a witness protection plan for tortoises?

Yeah it is. It works really well until they pistol whip a couple of customers in their pizzaria in Palm Coast. Then the game wardens have to step in and do something about it.
On a serious note when I first moved down here about 15 years ago, I went to a CFHS meeting in Orlando. The guest speaker was FWC biologist Paul Moler. I asked about the possibility of implementing an adoption program for Gopher Tortoises in Fl. similar to what they have in California.
His response to me... and I quote (and I have witnesses to back me up.) was "In 50 years they will all be gone so it doesn't matter anyway.". The impression I got from that answer was that the FWC has no interest in allowing private entities to do anything to help Gopher Tortoises especially if it is free and does not allow them to collect funds.
The really sick thing about it is that for years they would grant developers an incidental take permit that allowed them to bury as many gopher tortoises as they wanted on a piece of property they were developing for the paltry sum of $5000.
That's right folks if you or I wanted to keep a few of these tortoises alive and well on our property we would be guilty of what I seem to recall is a felony here in Fl. but for $5000 (assuming you were that special class of Fl. citizen known as a developer.) you could entomb them in the ground where it could take more than a year for them to slowly die.
When they were surveying the land for the interchange of I-4 and the 419 Just south of the "happiest place on Earth" a friend of mine who was working as a surveyor became aware of a large colony of Gopher Tortoises living on that piece of property. He informed his boss who told him if he ever mentioned it again he would be fired. I'm sure that happens a lot more than anyone realizes.

It is a terrible shame that we are represented as the bad guys in the Public's eye in all this, when in fact we are the good guys. Been a great media and propaganda campaign by some in the past. I only hope we can turn it around soon.

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John your yellow mud turtle picture reminds me of something.I lived in nashvill ten. I was out snake hunting when I saw this crazy looking long haired long bearded guy picking up a cumberland slider off of the raod.I turned around and talked to the guy.It was willam Golden from the oak ridge boys.He was putting the turtle in the creek behind his house.He said he picks up every turtle he finds on the road as he hates to see them dead.Turtles reach many more people than do any other reptile.The problem is it brings out the finatics at least in Texas.The permit system in Texas is run by box turtle loveing snake hunting hateing people who helped push this road ban.To what end 99% of all collected boxies were saved from a tire on a road.I do not know what the big picture is or the overall agenda but you would think that someone could save a turtle if they chose to do so.Yet in my state of Texas you can go to jail and spend thousands in fines.Where is the justice for the turtle in that.It seems that the laws are not to save an animal but to target a group of people who enjoy the animals.
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Archie Bottoms

Well said and right on target. Those Box Turtle People pushing for that ban are the sort that never successfully produced turtles, could not tell normal healthy shell growth from abnormal unhealthy growth, could not tell an Ornate Box Turtle from a Three-toed Box Turtle, have/had no comprehension what-so-ever of the Binomial System of Nomenclature and Taxonomy in general.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

A few years ago developers in Orlando were given permission to move some large numbers of GT from Geneva to Walton Co in the panhandle. The economy was bustling and this effort was applauded. Now that we are in a recession, Titusville's efforts are seen as ridiculous in the local buzz.

I wonder if the property owner is the same as the one in these articles:

http://cranewoods.com/development-communities/real-estate-community-news-2/rescued-gopher-tortoises-florida-beach-home/

http://www.hshartampa.org/Conservation.html