Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Are they the same?

Pretty much.
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If all the beasts were gone,
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no not the same they are to different genetic lines and they both react differently when bred to other morphs i believe black pastel change the color and cinis change pattern there are also issues with the cini with the mouth have i believe cleft pallets and this is not seen in the black pastels

you actually have that backwards its the black pastels (super versions) anyway that has the duck billing problem not the cinnys. and i belive there very much different more so than say lessers and butters the cinny x pastel= pewters just blow away the black pastel version hands down not even in the same brackett now this may just be my opinion but if you were to put a silver streak black pastel line next to a sterling pastel cinnamon line side by side 9 out of 10 people are going to go with the sterling if not all ten of them.

It appears that black pastel and cinnamon are DIFFERENT mutations of the SAME gene, i.e. alleles. If so, there would definitely be an important relationship. The combo parent couldn't pass two versions of the same gene to the same offspring unlike a combo of mutations of two different genes, for example pewter. But the consistently different looks of cinnamon and black pastel would tend to indicate they are not exactly the same mutation of that common gene which might be the case with butter and lesser.

"also issues with the cini with the mouth have i believe cleft pallets and this is not seen in the black pastels"

Can anyone confirm this? I also saw a post that the cinnamonblack pastel combo was less likely to have deformities than the homozygous cinnamon but I'm not sure if either of those are the case as the tendency to pallet and kinking problems may have nothing to do with inbreeding and just be a trait of the mutations. Even if that is the case there may be an environmental or nutritional variable that effects how likely this tendency is to be seen and if we identify it out we might be able to largely avoid the problems.

duck billing shows in both the black and cini. the cleft pallet as far as i know shows up only in the cini i am not sure weather or not it is genetic or not.as far as cini looking better they both produce a pewter and a silver streak the black pastel gives them a darker richer color the cini adds more blushing. and i personally prefer the black pastel. i have both and the pastel is by far the nicer looking.

I think it has been addressed before, but I will ask for the record one more time:

Does the Super created by crossing Cinnis to B. Pastels have AS MUCH duckbilling as the Supers created within the same morph?

Would breeders recommend getting Supers from crossing these two instead of just CinniXCinni, etc?
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

when you cross the two i believe that you do not get a super you end up with black pastel, cinis or black pastel cinis if i am correct they do not produce an eight ball

Is this true? Anyone else tried this combo before? Can you get Supers from breeding the two morphs together, or not?
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Yes you will get Supers and less chance of the duck billing problem that comes with breeding the Black Pastels to the Black Pastels. I have a lucky male Black Pastel that gets to breed 6 of my female Cinnamons. You get the biggest problem with breeding the BP's to the BP's or th CP(Cinnamon Pastel) to the CP trying to get the Supers. You lessen your chances of getting it by breeding the CP to the BP.
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JEM from sunny AZ.

3.25 Normals
3.10 Pastels
1.0 Super Pastels(Thanks Dan Wolf for the best looking Super male I have ever seen)
1.7 Normal Spiders
1.1 Spiders 100% het Ghost(thanks Mark Petros)
0.2 Spiders 66% het Ghost(Thanks Steve Beamer)
1.3 Orange/Butterscotch Ghosts(BallPython777 Mark Petros)
0.6 100% het Orange Ghosts
0.3 66% het Orange Ghosts(should prove this year)
0.1 Pastel Ghost
1.0 Citrus Ghost(courtesy of Josh Hutto)
0.1 Super Pastel 100% het Ghost
2.3 Albinos
1.1 Caramel Albinos
0.1 100% het Caramel Albino
0.4 100% het for Albino
0.5 66% het for Albino(should prove this year)
0.7 Yellow Bellies
1.0 Pastel Yellow Belly
1.2 Ivories
1.2 100% het for Clowns(Mark Petros)
1.6 Cinnamons(Thanks Stan Ruppel)
1.0 Pied
1.4 100% het for Pied(Josh Hutto)
0.5 66% het for Pied(should prove out next year with my visual male Pied)
1.5 Mojaves
0.1 Pastave het Ghost
1.1 Beautiful Black Pastels(thanks Gulf Coast Reptiles)
1.2 BumbleBees(thanks for the AWESOME Bees Marc Bailey)
1.1 Pewters(Myself and Scott Priester of Brookside Reptiles)
0.1 Chocolates(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.3 Lessers(Josh Hutto)
2.1 Fire's(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
2.2 High White Calico's(Thanks Brent from BRB)
1.1 SpotNoses(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.1 Enchi's (Me and Josh Hutto, Thanks again Josh)
1.0 Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon Blast
1.0 Vanilla Ghost(Thanks again GCR for all the great snakes)
0.1 Vanilla Yellow Belly
0.1 Vanilla(Another one from Josh Hutto,I must have all your snakes now...lol.) Thanks my friend, Jay
1.1 Stillwater Hypo Bull snakes(Brad Chambers)
0.0.1 Vietnamese Blue Beauty
1.0 Gotti Pitbull
2.0 Beautiful Bengals
14 Tarantulas
Last but most Important 2.2 Children

"I have a lucky male Black Pastel that gets to breed 6 of my female Cinnamons."

Great project and best of luck! But I have to ask, have you actually produced already with those and have a rate of problems to report with the solid colored snakes either from cross lines or same line combos?

Don't get me wrong, I just got my first cinnamon literally the day before yesterday and for all I know (I don’t pay much attention to names) you have been breeding them for years. Certainly you are way ahead of me. However I get the idea some others in this thread where in elementary school when I first started following the discussions on this issue. So just trying to sort out which sources have actual experience to report and which are more theory based like myself. Thanks!

I had a whole clutch from cinny male to albino female with what I termed a shark mouth, the upper jaw being much longer than the bottom. No super at all, still they were terrible and had to be euthanized. The same cinny male produced other clutches with no problem. I missed the super cinny and hatched two silver bullets (super cinny-pastel) neither had any deformities.

so i guess it would not be limited to the cini or black pastel sound like it carries over to the other genes as well.

i cant speak for the black pastels, but i think duckbilling is just something that happens with cinnamons.... i produced a duckbilled cinnamon last season in a clutch of cinnabees. this was from a male cinnamon who had produced 2 clutches the previous year with no duckbills whatsoever. all of the cinnabees, spiders and normals were perfect, just the one cinnamon had a duckbill. its lower jaw was a good 1/4 shorter than its upper. i didnt fully understand why they called it a duckbill until i saw it for myself, firsthand.

I assumed cleft pallet and duckbill where just two different names for the same defect, sort of like wobble vs. spin for spiders. Some of the ones I've seen people say have whatever you want to call it I can't really see but of course the kinks are easier to pick out.

cleft pallet is ahole in roof of the mouth duck billing is a a widening at the snout looks like a ducks bill

in 2002 there were 2 black balls...
one had a cleft type-ish duck bill and one looked like it had a big Roman nose....raised larger than normal.....hey....me too....

....it's been a looong time since 2002....

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......JY

Has anyone make public the results of a Black Pastel/Cinny Super X Normal? Reason I ask, I would like to know if there is a difference between the way the offspring look. I understand that they are different alleles but I'm currious about the actual phenotypes of the offspring.

In addition to the question above. What about the different lines and other possible similar Black pastel and Cinny snakes. What about the Razor (the super with the silver stripe down it's back? I know I saw it somewhere?) Would combos with these produce supers? And supers of mixed bred back to normals produce both phenotypes?

I'm guessing this is kinda like the lesser/butter/mojave thing as well.

Thanks,

W. Smith

to make things simple....you can say they are in the same family....however related like cousins.

both produce dark solid pattern supers...however the black pastel super is more darker in color, while the cinny super have a more "milk chocolate" look in color. and yes they do react differently when crossed into other morphs.

both supers have their flaws.....

Pitoon

>>Are they the same?
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