Reptile & Amphibian Forums

You know the old saying "keep your friends close, but your enemy's closer.Roomer has it that" Chana has been ramping up on "farm raised"(we all know what this means) CITES permitted reptiles for the pet trade to Europe, Asia, and possably the USA. (this year). Odly the people with the best chanch of stoping it would be PETA and the HSUS. I dont want to be friends with any of them. I would like to know 1. Is this true, and has anyone else heard this. 2. What do you think about it. Will it hurt us, will American Reptile dealers buy from them. 3. Do we want to/or can we do anything about it. Vic

Having a lot of experience in this subject I would have to say other than the farming of common U.S. turtles such as RES there is NO Chinese threat to the Reptile Industry at large. There are very few Chinese who have the capability to breed most herps we sell. In fact I'LL GO A STEP FURTHER AND SAY IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN unless the husbandry practices change rapidly which evidence indicates isn't happening. Look at the Mollendorf Ratsnakes and Mandarin Ratsnakes that are native to China. No Chinese is breeding those in any numbers and they are very saleable. This last year I received the first shipment of cb herps I've ever heard of from China [Hong Kong]. There has been an ongoing attempt to produce Cuora trifasciata there for years with limited success whereas D. Uhrig breeds them like chickens. In fact there have been discussions where I've been asked would I breed these turtles for them which I'm considering for the well being of the species but have no real interest in personally...ANYWAY DON'T SWEAT IT....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Most of us dream of such a practice .There would be lines for some of the species like mang vipers and all of the habus hemi habus.If this happened it would only boost the reptile industry .As Tom said fat chance.
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Archie Bottoms

China has been shipping farmed/Cb reptiles to the US for a good while now, rats, vipers, some of this and that, the stuff is easy to get. You can do it online.In China the snake farm thing has been big for a long time (the 70 `s), they crank out a lot of snakes, like all "farms" they are a blend of actual captive breeding and collecting WC gravids and baby stuff. The bottom line is they produce hundreds of thousand's of snakes.......

but its been all about medicinal stuff, food etc. That's where the long term doe is and not in supplying the pet trade. They dont care about some animal dealer or collector, With the big places ...if you want to buy snakes, you tell them how many tons you need , not how many animals.

The Chinese have never been serious about getting into the reptile pet market. A couple guys here and there.The big end of the Chinese pet industry has been mostly fish (and maybe smuggling), The few guys that are in it for the live reptile trade are really small time by comparison. Given the advancements and success the Chinese have had with fish including the incredible things they have accomplished with the captive breeding of marine fish....if they ever really went for it with reptiles I have no doubt they would have lights out production. "forgetaboutit" But.........

Comparatively Fish have a much higher turn over then reptiles, the live fish market supports the kind of numbers that excite the Chinese, the reptile market wont come close. Even if they get a cites quota I don't see a long term flood of animals being imported into the US. Without getting into all the numbers, (possible violation of KS terms) at this point importing live reptiles from China pretty much sucks and the truth is its not really worth it. There's some nitch market animals , but even those aren't a big deal here any more. That's why so few people waste their time on the China stuff.Im sure if you could get some legal cites stuff that would create some new excitment for about 5 minutes.

The rumors that China could legally ship Cites animals direct the US are true. It looks like its going to happen, it might be a year way but I think their moving towards an agreement. Personally, I don't see it having anything in the way of a long term effect, the turtles.... they wont ship in any numbers, the snakes and things like Shinisaurus, after a couple of shipments ... the market will dry up and no one will want them, you always have that "new stuff" rush and then the bottom falls out. That's how it usually goes. For the most part, I think China getting a cites quota is all about trying to monitor the alternative reptile usage's and has very little to do with the pet trade.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Thanks, This is all very intresting, I wasnt sure what it would do from the little guy to the big supplyers for Petco and such. I pictured the national chain stores using them more than anyone else. I know reptiles are getting popular in Asia and we'ed be next.I saw a vidio of a Japan Reptile Expo and saw a Bob Clark booth in the backround! Its like 20 years ago here over there, their into green Iguanas for pets all over Asia. Its good to here Tom say they cant begin to compete with us. Good, made in the USA is better. Anyone else have more comments, from any angle of it. I know they are farming turtles for food and TCM but its not enough for 1.3 billion! Also its said some, the new exspanding middle class dont really want the farm raised, they want to get back to their roots so its got to be wild to get the animals Karma, or have true TCM value. Thanks Vic.........

I disagree with much of what Ernie has posted. Last year I brought only 2 shipments of Herps in fron China including the 30 Mangshans and a plethera of other RARE herps that cost in excess of $70,000 in China. The "NEW" Chinese will take $$ any way they can get it. He gives you the impression they are some kind of global money barons which they are NOT. It is the collective Chinese like are businessmen the world over that ALL have that spitit of individual commerce ingrained in their soul's that matters. These are the Chinese in the animal trade. Their husbandry is lightyears behind ours and only the well heeled Chinese can afford nice enclosures etc and damned few of them have any interest in herps. Over time this deep interest in becoming a business man or entrepreneur will allow a few Chinese to evolve and breed or ranch herps for export. This will NOT happen overnight and will have little effect on the market here for a very long time. He is true that if 30 more Mangshans were to appear now the price would go down as with any supply and demand market does. In another year you could bring in the same amount worth the same price and sell them all. There were many including Earnie who knew the Mangshans were there and either lacked the $$ or guts to risk spending the amount I did to bring the shipments in. Everyone thought they wouldn't sell and advised me against it and perhaps for them that might have been true but for me it worked and worked well. I've been dealing with the Chinese now for almost 40 years first buying and now buying and selling. They are very interested in breeding their native turtles for food purposes with mixed success just as now they'r breeding some native common U.S. Turtles we used to ship in quantity to them such as RES are now produced. I likely shipped the last American Alligators there back in the 90's [50 heads that were 5'-6' long] but yet I've heard of NO major or any Alligator production at all from China. If they could have they would have by now. Ernie again is speaking his mind which is good BUT NOT based on actual facts or history of the Chinese and herps. Their record is a dismal one that has led to the extiration of many native species and now they work at smuggling neighboring countries chelonians and , yes, even U.S. turtles as well. The Herp comunnity has a lot to worry about but the Chineses mass producing our herps is not one of them...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

The guy at Global Imports name was Wit and he was earlier than Oscar Shu...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

By the way in the 70's-80's the ONLY Chinese herps being shipped came from a handful of Hong Kong dealers like Oscar Shu, Global Reptiles [forgot his name], etc. THERE WERE NO SNAKE FARMS ONLY SNAKE MARKETS IN KOWLOON where these guys would buy their wares and stock in trade to export to us. I likely imported the FIRST Mandarin and 100 Flower Snakes only to face nearly a 100% mortality rate. Ernie what would your age have been in the 70's. I was in my late 20's so you must have been a young teenager or middle school student at best. Did you import internationally at such a young age and that's assuming you're at least 50 now which I'm not sure you are. Otherwise you would have had to be a preteen. How old are you so we can know how you know this info? I'm very interested in this...I turned 30 in 1978 just so you know...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Jeez, Tom, are you THAT old??? LOL Actually, the Chinese do a lot of dog breeding and sales.

Yes, they really wanted to breed American Alligators but I've never heard of any but I know I shiped them in the early 90's 50 6' long Gators of even sex ratio. The Bear breeding for bile never worked out for them either according to what I've found on line and the Tiger Farms are doing well from a Tourist standpoint only. Again it's husbandry, husbandry that is the problem. The Panda thing has been very successful but is largely due to American $$$ and knowledge...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Guo et al. (1996) reported several hundred snake farms in China producing 427,000 specimens of three commonly traded species (Agkistrodon acutus, Bungarus multicinctus, and Zaocys dhumnades). Zhao (1998) reported that approximately 100 Chinese farms produced their first A. acutus hatchlings in the late 1970s

The above paragraph provides a degree of documentation for some of the actual facts that have been wrongly disputed. My initial post was regarding all of China including the mainland and not just Hong Kong, this should have been clear and I think it was for most. I was only interested in telling it like it really is, giving an accurate overview, possibly sparking some legitimate discussion, as opposed to just telling ........boastful.... Sigh..........."story's."

Most if not all of the large scale animal breeding operations are on the mainland, None of these places really gives a crap about supplying the pet trade with live reptiles never did and probably never will for the reasons previously stated. Most of what takes place at the giant places isn't real captive breeding (typical farm stuff, like I mentioned) they do raise hatchlings and small snakes up to size, this takes time and the snakes have to grow at a good pace and have plenty of weight....so the Chinese can take good care of them, in very large numbers. In order for these operations to be considered successful they need to produce tons of snakes (literally)and they need them consistently, so pure captive breeding at the farms isn't the best option for now...but at some point it might be the only one and they will do it and do it big. They are already working in that direction.

Mainland China is very different from Hong Kong, but its changing and its going to change more. Its going to get more open. I still don't think any of the big snake farms are going to waste their time getting into the live reptile trade for pets, its way better and smarter to keep doing what they have been doing as far as the live trade goes, like always they will sell a comparatively little of this and that to the wholesale / breeder/whatever guys that run over from Hong Kong.

The collector/breeder deal in Hong Kong is a way different story then what goes on in the mainland, Reptiles are as popular as pets in Hong Kong as they are here. Its a well off modern place.To think they are light years behind anyone in their husbandry at this point is ridiculous. The breeders in Hong Kong are breeding all kinds of ball python morphs, albino boas, the colubrid stuff, some guys are breeding the Chinese stuff, rat snakes, all the different cave geckos, even the salamanders and newts and shipping to the US and Europe and to the SE Asian country's that are also getting into it more and more, there is even an international reptile expo in Hong Kong with breeders and vendors from all over the world.

For the most part the live reptile trade in Hong Kong is like it is here, its still pretty new compared to here and the prices are higher but you can go into a pet shop and buy a ball python, kingsnakes all the usual stuff. Get all the same equipment. There are a couple of reptile specialty stores, I wouldn't be surprised to see somebody in Hong Kong get a Bell (Reptile Industry's) style dealership going in the not to distant future.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Once more again you say one thing and then agree in a later sentence with me while appearing to disagree. There are not now and have never been any REAL snake breeding farms in China. Possibly there are places that hold snakes there to sell to consumers etc. There have been Bear Breeding Farms, Tiger Farms, Chinese Alligators. Currently there are a few folks MOSTLY in Hong Kong [which if you haven't heard belongs to China now] which breed local Chinese Snakes. If anyone hatched D. acutus it was by catching a gravid female and getting lucky with the eggs. Vic asked about a threat to Herpetoculture here and I answered him correctly. Then you lead everyone to believe that the Chinese are somehow mastering the mass breeding of their local snakes for food consumption there. I have spoken at length to a two very good herpers in Hong Kong about mainland China and what is happening there since both travel extensively throughout regions with interesting herps frequently. They tell me that NO ONE except for a few hobbiest even try to keep snakes alive much less breed them. In China animals of any species are kept with little regard for their feelings. In the Snake Market in Kowloon snakes are held in lg. wire cages with mixed species piled on top of each other until they die or one is selected for food. Hong Kong has ALWAYS been the driving force for marketing Chinese herps abroad both then and now. You would know that if you were really 65 years old and were really in the Reptile Business. It is extremely difficult to travel in mainland China unless you use the bus system which is not feasible for a nonchinese speaking traveler but could be done. The biggest problem for Sam is to get healthy herps back to Hong Kong where he lives. Even for a Chinese he says it's very difficult and then you say there are these HUGE farms breeding and ranching snakes since the 70's. I've said that there are attempts to breed the Cuora trifasciata Turtles happening now and there NOT even able to do that with any kind of consistentcy yet Dennis Uhrig cranks them out annually here in Florida and Ralph Bruno used to do so as well. Read some of the TSA articles about shipments of turtles and tortoises that are caught being smuggled to China because their native chelonians have been eaten to the brink of extinction.. The Chinese are the BEST entrepaneurs in the world and have businesses the world over BUT the keeping and breeding of herps is NOT something their used to doing. I'm sure there are places selling snakes all over China BUT their NOT breeding anything yet and I believe it will be a LONG TIME unless someone goes there and gives them knowledge and aid as they have for the Panda's before that will happen. By the way I googled Zao and found lots of scientific papers but nothing about breeding snakes or snake farms as you say. It's well known he is a leading Chinese taxonomist and I've read many of his published papers but nothing on snake farms....Once again you pretend to be some sort of Zen Master Reptile Industry expert talking the talk without ever having walked the walk....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I would have to agree with Tom. I have been to Taiwan, Hong Kong, S. Korea, and Japan. Admittedly not recently. However, I have worked with and for many Asians/S.E.Asians. Currently work for a Korean woman.
I've got to say, once again, it's a cultural thing and at this point a viable "pet" reptile business just isn't there. I've said this before, too -- the way a people treat their animals says a lot about them. And the Chinese could care less about the welfare of ANY animal, just so long as it's available for the cooking pot when the cooking pot is ready for the animal.
American PETA supporters here would stroke-out if they went to China. It is hard for most of us here in America to imagine just how many people there are over there to feed. Food is a high priority and the majority of the population is very low on Maslow's Hierarchy.
Just my opinion.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

As John says, food, and "medicinal" use is a far higher priority than as pets.

Heres a topical link worth reading, its from a few years back and things have gotten even bigger since then. Also keep in mind this article is about the mainland,

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.
Link

I'm in total agreement that Chinese like, keep, and use animals of ALL kinds. Look at the dates offered on the articles [all after 2000] BUT during the Chairman Mao [70's-80's] days people in China had no such abilities and would have been afraid to entertain such thoughts. I said that already. There were NO snake farms in China in the 70's unless you count folks catching and selling snakes as farms. Personally I don't count those as farms. I don't agree that the Chinese in mainland China anytime soon are going to become lg. scale herp producers. I've talked to Sam Li about this many times already. So far they can't breed Golden Coin Turtles even...Come on just think about it. At some point being the worlds great business people a few people will do great things. Some are already but again HONG KONG is the place NOT mainland China. All of this will FIRST happen in Hong Kong. Mark my words....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Another point was previously mentioned. They just don't have the transportation infrastructure to do it on a Global scale. Within the local county, province, or state - probably, but perishable live reptiles in any condition as pets, I don't think so. Good enough shape for soup is all.
The reason they like turtles for the table so much, is due to the turtle's shelf life unrefrigerated. They're practically like a crate of potatoes (once you purge the gut). It is a very convenient form of protein.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

And no salmonella regs!

They just don't have the transportation infrastructure to do it on a Global scale.

They have been producing and shipping millions of tropical fish (including marine fish) and gold fish, shipping them all over the world for many years. When I say millions I mean a single farm might produce and ship 5 to 10 million fish a year to ship to the pet trade. Its huge.

They also ship good amounts of all kinds live animals, including reptiles All over the world on a regular basis. (including to the US ). They mastered shipping live animals in mass a long time ago.

A guy like Sammy Li who was mentioned might have trouble getting around and getting his stuff home alive because he's just a comparatively small time jobber who runs around buying stuff, trying to hustle a living selling it over the Internet. He cant afford air condition trucks etc. Nothing against Sammy I think he does the best he can but he is no example to go by.........The guys who run the real places on the mainland are as advanced and professional and well equipped as anyone in the world.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

If you really knew Sam you would know he's in the TROPICAL FISH BUSINESS and he ships likely millions of them annually. Herps are his hobby NOT his business. Where do all these fish get shipped from in mainland China? I don't know much about fish but my neighbor has a HUGE fish farm and he says the guys in HONG KONG ship all the fish he's ever heard of from China. Bruce, my partner, is also a big fish enthusiest and says the same thing. It's possible huge numbers of tropical and marine fish come from mainland China but I've never heard of it and would like to know from what cities, Bejiing, Shanghai, etc.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I will just about bet they come from Indonesia, the Philippines, Africa,...those parts of the world. I've done reef tanks and I've managed a fish store in my early days. As a matter of fact, that store went belly up after I left.
Just sharing my opinion.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

All I can say John is dont bet to much you will lose your shirt on that one.

........guess what my neighbor has a nice fish farm to. SO ? Sure Indonesia, the Philippines they ship lots of marine fish . Africa I think its mostly fresh water stuff. Its been probably 6 years since I last had any contact with Sammy Li, I dont think there is any need to go into all the details but I do vaguely remember something about him being a fish guy, it seems kind of strange that a guy who likely ships millions of fish would not be able to arrange suitable local transportation for his RARE reptile shipments. Did you know the Chinese have also been successfully farming bull frogs for good while , I don't know exactly how many but I would bet there's probably 100 frog farms up and running, they have been blamed for introducing the invasive bull frog ....some thing's are always the same

Shanghai Aquaria We specialize in dealing all kinds of Goldfish, Our fish farm near to Shanghai international airport, China

 Goldfish Queen Ornamental Fish Farm

 Company Description

We are one of the leading ornamental fish exporters located in Shanghai China, specialize in goldfish and koi. Goldfish Queen breeds more than 60 varieties goldfish and supply 7 million goldfish, size from 2.5 inch to 8 inch, to local and worldwide wholesalers and pets shops. We also carry high quality Japanese style koi, floating fish food and cabinet aquariums in the stock. Please send your inquiry for your interested products.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Sometimes in rural primitive areas which are common in S.W. China where a LOT of interesting herps are found it's extremely difficult to get in and out of areas. In a modern country like Belize you can only get to Caracol [Mayan ruin bigger than Tikal] in the dry season even though there's an airstrip in addition to a very BAD road. I've driven there after starting in San Ignacio and it took me 8 hours to get there in the dry season. We had rain and literally slid darn near off the mountain at one spot. I had to fix my cable on the winch on the front bumper to pull myself and my Izuzu Trooper back on the road. Anyone who's ever been to truly primitive areas and rough country knows this. A hundred mile trip might take days in some places under certain conditions so that just doesn't make sense. Try driving the 50 miles from Punta Gorda to Barranco in Belize and see how long it takes [dry season only]. China is a modern country with high tech stuff ONLY IN SOME AREAS. Some areas are damn near impossible to get in and out of. Ernie why don't you take a trip and do one your self and see how easy it is rather than imagine everythings easy.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

This just goes on and on and the only thing that I am sure of is that Tom has taken the risks as well as done the deed.i F ALL OF THE GIANT FARMS EXISTED THE WAY THAT HAS BEEN TOLD WHERE PREY ARE THE ANIMALS.They are on the table fixing to be eaten.They are well known for rounding up thousands of pounds of snakes for that.The herp market is different that is in cost.Keeping breeding and raising young costs big bucks.I think Tom has the market down very well and I did a little research I found nothing but I will keep looking.Tom made a statement from his experience and you all but keep calling him a liar.If you have brought these animals in please enlighten us other wise show some real proof .You are insulting a man who did the deal for real.
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Archie Bottoms

The way I see it, that is a very big problem in America today. Most people in this World don't see things through our eyes, as we do. Their perspective on reality is completely different than ours. It's a cultural thing...where have I heard that before?
I wish more American's traveled abroad. I'm for the draft, by the way. Mandatory public service. Gives a citizen a sense of ownership with their personal contribution to this great society. Not just taking everything for granted as if a demanding ignorant spoiled child.
I'm also for giving Veterans a lifetime tax deduction of some percentage to be determined by law.
Simply my opinions. Of course I could be all wrong about things. I do have some strange ideas.lol
Thanks,
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

These are some shots from doing the deal for real as you put it, maybe 7 years ago (if not longer), I don't remember. Its been a while., This is what I could dig up for pics, I have changed computers a couple times and don't keep track of that kind of stuff.

At the time it was cool and all but also pretty routine, and other guys who I wont mention were in on it, so I dont know who got what first and all that crap, or who even cares ? It got old fast. Thats for sure.

You should be able to recognize the animals, its no big deal now but at the time it was nice get some of the hatchling stuff, I hope you enjoyed the pictures. I know I felt a twinge of nostalgia when I found them.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

[img] http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/70335jer13.jpg[/image]

[img] http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/70335jer2.jpg[/image]

If you actually will read what I wrote I said I didn't know if they shipped all these fish or not and even said it's possible. I do have one question though where are the Chinese getting these Tropicals from since most of China is a temperate zone nation. Are they buying them from the Phillipines or Indonesia? I know nothing about the subject except that Koi and Goldfish are most often thought of with China and Japan NOT TROPICALS. I know very little about the fish business but I still bet HONG KONG is also the place for fish as well. The infrastructure has been in place there the longest in terms of the animal business...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I was referring to Marine fish. Should have stated that. I believe Hong Kong is a Shipping Hub for product, in the same vein as the UPS and FedEx freight operations.
Goldfish are nothing. That's why they're so popular in China. They live in the family cesspool. They are a pretty trash fish. They are Carp. Very undemanding in their environmental requirements, other than intolerant to excessive heat. It's simple vertical integration of agricultural/natural resources.
Bullfrogs, Red-eared Sliders and Catfish should all equally fit that aquacultural model. May be a little too cool for Catfish. Just leave the Bullfrogs in the paddies and harvest them periodically. They'll take care of the crop's pests, in the mean time.
The thing about the Chinese is that they are very efficient. Very good at arranging the resources, so as a natural system functions on it's own and they reap the rewards with very little effort (other than the harvest). Too bad we can't be more like them in some ways.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

They just don't have the transportation infrastructure to do it on a Global scale. Within the local county, province, or state probably, but perishable live reptiles in any condition as pets, I don't think so. Good enough shape for soup is all.

John that's what you said, that was your original point, I told you why this is not true, I told you about how many fish were bred and shipped from the mainland, how they can easily ship live animals in good condition to anywhere..., ................

Then another guy starts talking about his neighbors fish farm and his partner, how they never heard of this blah blah blah. .... Well..........

For those that don't know, Shipping fish is far more difficult then reptiles and its a fact they transport and ship a lot of live fish of many types on the mainland (not just gold fish),

Now that the myth that they cant ship live animals has been dismissed its time to play lets twist things into a new game ? com `on .........

they breed many types of ornamental fish, and their not doing it in the family cesspool, these operations are top notch and professional. They understand genetics and color enhancement, marketing to the pet trade,

If you read my first post in this thread you will see I clearly explained why fish and not reptiles were the target pet trade species, I explained the snake farm deal ... that post was a very truthful and factual overview.

After that the conversation went into guys trying to say they cant breed anything, they don't have the husbandry skills.......they cant do and that ....... jibber jabber,

From what I know, I like you John....... as for some of the others well like the old saying goes, don't get into a mud slinging fight with a pig, you will both end up cover in mud.......but the pig will like it

.............So I`ll continue to stick to the truth and ignore the non sense.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Ernie, I'm not trying to out anyone, disrespect anyone, dismiss anyone's opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as am I.
It is not personal. I try to stay on the subject and be as relevant in my comments as I know how. Whenever I have found I strayed from being relevant and respectful I have acknowledged such and apologized. Please do not take offense.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I tried to answer Vic's question to the best of my knowledge and was attacked as usual by Ernie "the grouch". This will be my last post as we're wasting valuable time and space over a rather silly subject when there are much "bigger fish to fry" than fish in China which hardly is a Herp Issue. It was never my intent to do this. Vic and I have been friends for over 30 years and I answered him. It should have never been taken this far but I get sick of petty silly comments and tirades from the "Herp Guru". Anyway sorry and thanks Vic and others including the "Guru"....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Posted by: WSTREPS at Tue Apr 20 06:16:31 2010 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by WSTREPS ]

They just don't have the transportation infrastructure to do it on a Global scale.

They have been producing and shipping millions of tropical fish (including marine fish) and gold fish, shipping them all over the world for many years. When I say millions I mean a single farm might produce and ship 5 to 10 million fish a year to ship to the pet trade. Its huge.

I hear a lot of oink oink here. Just where are these PRODUCING TROPICAL FISH INCLUDING MARINE FISH FARMS located in mainland China which even in southern areas are COLD, COLD, COLD. How does one do that [produce Marine Tropicals and other Tropicals] when even extreme SE Florida took a huge hit this year and NOBODY here produces Marine Tropicals at all. You need to take a bath and wash all the mud off as it appears you're the only one muddy...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I do believe there is a HUGE UNTAPPED market in China for US cb herps perhaps greater than even here in the USA. I routinely export to Tawain and have for years now and WISH I knew how to market in mainland China without going there in person...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

About the way they treat animals kind of struck a nerve with me. The Head Gov.Herpetologist in charge of turtle proposals for Chinese turtle Conservation was in the USA a guest of the TSA. He came by my table at the Daytona Expo and asked to take pictures of my Manouria. (by someone else as he did not speak English, and a good thing) NEVER have I had a person disrespected my animal or myself like this. He BATTED the tortoises around for his shot like it was a toy. The tosing and turning over very ruffly got to me when seeing him do it with a smile. The folks at my table GASP when I used some choise America Cuss words about his Mother and grabed the tortoise away from him in an internationaly understood fashion and pointed to the door. It just really struck me as rude for someone invited here for the reason he was. I dont know what made me tell this story but it goes along with what is being said here. And I worked with a confascated turtle shippment to China that Tom mentioned, He is so right it was 4.5 TONS! Not slim Shady with a suecase full. And it has been a daily event sence 1990. And yes they are being funded by America $$ by the TSA who just asked Americans for $35000 to build a glass wall around a enclosure for the last pair of gaint softshell (swinhoei I think) they already paid for, because the visitors were throwing trash in the water! Can you believe it! Vic.....BORN IN THE USA *bs