Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Im in need of some help with my Pituophis.
I recently bought a pair and need to know which species it belongs to.
Im thankful for any help.

Here is some links to pictures:

Male:
http://www.repti.net/repti2/index.php?MODULE=Images&PAGE=5&ID=82336&Reptilephotos=8&SHOWNUMBER=0

http://www.repti.net/repti2/index.php?MODULE=Images&PAGE=5&ID=82337&SHOWNUMBER=0

Femail:
http://www.repti.net/repti2/index.php?MODULE=Images&PAGE=5&ID=82338&SHOWNUMBER=0

http://www.repti.net/repti2/index.php?MODULE=Images&PAGE=5&ID=82339&SHOWNUMBER=0

Regards Tobbe

They look like bull snakes (Pituophis deppei jani )to me. Sorry I can't be more specific.
http://www.kingsnake.com/pituophis/species.html
They are very nice!

Bullsnakes

Male

Female

They both definitely look like bullsnakes from the southern or southwestern part of their range. The top one looks near identical to my female which is oklahoma lineage for the most part.
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- Matt

1.0 Black Milk '04
1.0 Andean Milk '06
0.1 Eastern King '97
0.1 Bullsnake '09

those snakes also look like they were each fed about 4 mice each right before the photos! they're scales are a bit stretched out all along their midrange, which distorts the pattern a bit.

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- Matt

1.0 Black Milk '04
1.0 Andean Milk '06
0.1 Eastern King '97
0.1 Bullsnake '09

A female that is Pituophis catenifer sayi, and a male that appears to be either Pituophis catenifer affinis or an oddly (very oddly) patterned P. c. sayi. It would be prudent to ask your supplier for more information.

-Cole

Coluber constrictor flaviventris - Large adult with copper coloration

....at least phenotypically. Patternwise there is nothing there to suggest affinis or any other sub.

Bart

I meant to say sayi, not Jani
Here are my pair of sayi bull snakes. The head shape and the pattern markings are like the ones in question, although of course the color is different.

Pituophis catenifer sayi

The anterior pattern on the male is not indicative of sayi, or at least not the several hundred I’ve dealt with. The squarish neck blotches are far from what I’d consider “normal” for sayi, especially in conjunction with the blunt snout, though I’d love to be shown otherwise. What, specifically, indicates sayi to you? I'd be willing to accept that the male may have origins in the West Texas sayi X affinis intergrade zone, but "pure" sayi seems like a stretch.

-Cole

Dell Despain with a 3.5 foot male P. c. sayi - Stillwater Co., MT

I think they are sayi but have no idea what locale. The trouble with identifying bull snakes is that many captive bred are a mix of genes from different locals; mine are Stillwater x Kingsville for example, but are all sayi. TobiasAngel's snakes look like mine except a different color. The head pattern or lack thereof ( sort of bald or spotty looking), also seems to be similar.

That first animal looks exceedingly similar to animals I've seen from the Yuma area of Arizona, as well... Blunt snout (NOT a sayi trait) with square nuchal blotches. I don't see a classic "chain" pattern in the nuchal region, either, which is a sayi diagnostic character. Though I'm well aware of considerable variation among and between animals from different geographic locations (I'm a locality guy), that first animal (the male) either has a badly worn rostal scale and an odd pattern, or is an affinis (or intergrade).

-Cole

Blunt snout is not a characteristic of affinis either; they could be wild caught animals that rubbed the daylights out of their rostrals. Also the large amounts of saddles on these animals are far more suggestive of sayi. My first impression of these animals given my experience is that the animals in question strongly suggest sayi and very much remind me of animals I have examined from the Lubbock and Abilene areas over the years. It's good to know that you've actually examined a number of specimens; that's more than a lot of folks can say, but having seen and examined Pituophis from Alberta to Nuevo Leon and all parts east and west I stand by my original statement. While in this day and age all sorts of seedy breeding practices are occurring, I still view the animals pictured as representing sayi, certainly from a phenotypic standpoint.

Bart

Bart,

I’m a field guy at heart, and I'll admit openly to having much less experience with affinis than sayi, since I live in MT and encounter numerous sayi each field season here and in my herping forays to other states. I've dealt with literally several hundred of wild sayi from MT, WY, the Dakotas, Kansas, and CO. My experience with animals from IN/IL, TX, and OK is limited to mostly captive critters. I’m no Pituophis expert, but I’ve seen a few.

I’m not trying to discredit your experience, here – I am simply inquiring as to what leads you to believe that animal is a sayi. Using gestalt is helpful if you have the experience to do so, but when we’ve both seen lots of sayi and come to different conclusions on the animal in question, it becomes obsolete. A "flat" rostal should, technically, be a diagnostic feature of affinis, shouldn’t it? I am under the impression that a rostal scale which is as wide as, or wider than, it is tall is one physical character used to diagnostically separate affinis from sayi. I’ll agree that the animal may be a “snout-rubber” and have worn down its rostal, so from the photos provided, that’s not a very useful feature.

Again, I'm not difinitively stating that the animal is NOT a sayi, just that it's unlike any I've ever seen.

-Cole Grover

Sistrurus catenatus – south-central Kansas

Cole...is that a recent picture of the massasauga and what county in Kansas is that from? (not local specific) Are they all brown like that? I have seen others with much darker blotches from Kansas.

Thanks,

Dan

Daniel,

The photo was taken in 2008 in Barton Co., KS. The animal was an adult, and approximately 26"-28" in length. All of the catenatus I've seen from that area look "similar" to the one photgraphed. My primary target for the area was Nerodia, believe it or not, but it's hard to pass up a photogenic Crote!

-Cole

S. catenatus

Thanks Cole,

I am heading out to that area in a few weeks specifically for them. I was under the impression in that area they were a little darker and the ones further south were brown as your picture indicated. Thanks for the info. I guess you know that Sistrurus catenatus only applies to the eastern species and tergiminus and edwardsi are species and subspecies now. Again Cole, thanks for the info.

Dan

I actually hadn't heard that there was a push to split the western forms from catenatus and elevate them to species status under the name tergeminus. Could you provide the paper by any chance? Who did the work? I'm seriously curious as to the basis for the split - was it based solely on independent mtDNA lineages? Were nuclear loci used as well? Morphological data? I don't follow Crotalid taxonomy as closely as I do that of Colubrids, but I'm surprised I hadn't gotten wind of this!

-Cole

It is based upon a paper yet to be published by Michael Douglas of Colorado State University. I have read the paper..I believe you can google it. It's based on DNA AND seperation of the species. According to his studies, the Mississippi is the dividing boundery. Those massasaugas in Missouri will now be tergeminus and not catenatus. Can't say that I agree, but, hey...I'm no scientist. I didn't agree with them making eastern indigos a seperate species either.

I'll investigate further. Lots of the previous mtDNA-only work is being re-evaluated and conclusions refuted, since the results of mitochondrial nucleotide analysis only provide part of the story and can be very misleading. Some recent work has shown that the Mississippi and other large rivers are, in fact, not barriers to gene flow as was previously thought (and suggested by mtDNA-only studies). There are documented cases of Crotalids and Colubrids successfully dispersing across these "barriers". Very interesting stuff.

-Cole

Cole,
The pattern more than anything suggests sayi as I see it. Regarding the rostral, you're right, it's more triangular in affinis and not as cornified, but the photos provided of the male didn't show a clear view of the rostral. If the shot of the female's is any indication, it is probably badly worn as well. The saddles of affinis tend to be larger and less numerous, whereas the patterns of both animals are quite busy, more indicative of sayi. Realistically it would be much better to have the animals in hand in order to determine subspecifics, but with the photos provided I have to conclude that they are sayi; if indeed there is affinis influence in that animal I just don't see it.

By the way; if you live in Montana you're in a very interesting state in terms of sayi; Have you had the opportunity to explore the state extensively? I know that there are two large disjunct populations there; have you seen any noticable differences in the populations, and do you think that they may have crossed into Idaho? Allegedly there were reports of sayi from Fremont County, I haven't been able to confirm them.

Bart

Thanks a ton for the info. – it’s exactly what I was looking for. I don’t have a lot of experience with sayi from the southern portion of their range, so any chance I can get to educate myself is taken.

I have, indeed, explored the state fairly thoroughly. Only a handful of counties in MT are without documented populations of Pituophis, and I would hesitate to call the animals East and West of the Continental Divide “disjunct”, since numerous low passes provide more than ample habitat for genetic exchange between the animals. The lack of record for some of the areas shown on various maps is, in my opinion, probably more to do with a lack of sampling than an actual lack of animals. In fact, sayi are documentat at well over 5,000 feet in elevation here in MT, though the highest I've seen them is arount 4,700 feet. There are only a small number of us field herpers in the state.

There are Pituophis catenifer known from and documented in many of the MT counties which border the ID state line, including Ravalli, Missoula, Mineral, Sanders, and Lincoln Counties. The animals in that part of the state look very much sayi, and are what I’d consider to be “typical” of the form: very dark/black nuchal pattern with a chain-like light/white contrast; well-developed post-ocular stripe; prominent, tall, narrow, and pointed rostal; and labials with dark/black margins. I’ve not spent much time herping ID, honestly. I’ve seen Pituophis from there, though, as well as from eastern WA. Some of them look very much sayi, while others look more like deserticola. In speaking with herpers familiar with that area, it seems that the sayi-type animals are predominantly found in the northern ID/eastern WA area, and gradually become more deserticola-like the further West you go. I’ve heard similar things (and seen photo documentation) regarding the Crotalus viridis and oreganus in that area. In fact, such data on the Crotalus has been used to debate the validity of the split of the viridis-complex on the basis of mtDNA, alone.

Hope this is what you were looking for!

-Cole

Field herping action shot: Dell Despain watching Jeff Hardwick photograph Inge Hardwick holding a small P. c. sayi in Stillwater Co., MT.

Good to see you guys keeping a safe distance from the PO'd bullsnake!
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Have a nice day

Website: SerpenTrack

I have heard many time of Pituophis in easten Washington appearing to be more sayi in apearance, someone posted such an animal recently and indeed it suggested sayi, at least phenotypically. Has anyone done an extensive study and report on that area? In many circles that has become something of an "urban legend", though personally I am very intrigued at what may be. Such animals in northern Idaho took me a bit by surprise, I have to admit; perhaps the Pacific Northwest warrants more study on Pituophis. The former P. c. stegnegeri (hope I spelled that right!) was discounted many years ago, but in their definitive 1957 work Wright and Wright left the door open for further study on that particular population; perhaps that region of the country holds even more "gems" than many of us are aware!

Bart Bruno

Thanks for the help, I think its Sayi too. but its always better to ask someone hwo seen some.

Regards Tobbe