Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The interesting thing about the Florida Problem...

There is a Burmese Python population in the Everglades...(at least there still was until before this last winter)....but we have solid evidence, based on country-of-origin import records and DNA samples, which disproves the theory of "irresponsible pet owners" releasing these snakes into the Everglades.
The feral population of Burmese Pythons was a product of hurricane Andrew. It was NOT caused by careless keepers.
Yet the media continues to chant that tired, old (false) mantra.
The general public needs to know the facts.

Another interesting study was conducted by prominent a Herpetologist and Professor at CU, Dr. David Chizar. In 1995 I listened to Dr. Chizar's presentation of this study, while attending the International Herpetological Symposium.

This study looked at the feasibility of re-introducing captive bred "head started" Aruba Island Rattlesnakes (C. unicolor) to their NATIVE habitat, within an area set aside as a wildlife reserve.

They ran into some interesting data.
Comparing the "head started" captive bred snakes with wild snakes they found that the "head started" snakes essentially had "imprinting" problems. They would not be suited to survive in wild. These "head started" snakes lacked the skills needed to survive in their natural environment.

Wild Caught snakes reacted correctly to stimuli:
They sought refuge of heavy piles of rock or similar shelter when faced with a potential predator. (Such as a human or a dog.)

"Head Started" snakes would often associate humans with food....as they were used to receiving feedings from humans.
Inside the cage they would often witness the “head-started” c.b. snakes rubbing their faces on the glass in anticipation of feeding when these snakes saw humans.....or even when they saw Dr.Chizar's dog!
(Chizar often had his dog in the lab during the evening feeding sessions....and the snakes would associate human or canine presence with the offering of food items.)

I have also witnessed this face-on-the-glass-rubbing in several species of snakes including Elapids, Pythons, Boas, several Colubrid species and also Crotalus species. We often refer to this activity as "begging".

Wild snakes were able to effectively track their prey items after the bite.
C.B. head-started snakes performed very poorly at this task. They often failed altogether.

Dr. Chizar did a tongue flicks per minute study while the snakes were tracking their prey items.
The wild caught snakes scored off the chart...and rarely if ever got off course while tracking.
The “head-started” snakes scored poorly with low tongue flicks per minute and often got off track....sometimes they were unable to complete the task.

Head-Started snakes have a greater chance of being introduced to (and infected with) fatal reptilian diseases, while in captivity. This further diminishes their chances of surviving in the wild after re-introduction. It also opens more possibilities of spreading diseases to the wild populations.

One cannot help but draw similarities in the data this study revealed to a similar "Recovery Project" which was aimed at the re-introduction of Carolina Parakeets.
Adult birds were selected as the best possible breeding stock... from some of the nations top bird breeders....this was also to provide genetic diversity within the new population of "recovery subjects".
The birds were banded and tracked.
Every single bird died. The project was an epic failure.
These birds lacked the essential skills needed to thrive in the wild. They were dependent on humans for skills that they were not able to learn from their avian parents.

The vast majority of Burmese Pythons in captivity... were hatched in captivity.
These Pet Burmese Pythons do not have the skills needed to survive in the wild. Escaped pet Burmese Pythons....or even Burmese Pythons "purportedly released" would be lucky to survive past the one year mark, outside of the captive environment.

The Burmese Pythons which inhabit the Everglades National Park
were introduced as hatchling imports. A group of 900 babies that were not yet imprinted to human care or captive conditions.
During Hurricane Andrew these snakes escaped because of the destruction of a wholesale facility near the Everglades National Park. It was the result of a natural disaster which introduced these snakes to the Everglades....It was not the act of irresponsible pet owners or reptile keepers.

So....lets do a little rough math here.
Statistically speaking, 1 Out of 100 hatchling snakes will survive natural predation, human interaction, disease etc. to mature as a breeding adult.
This 1/100th reduction in population leaves you with an animal that has gained a lifetime of the necessary skills for survival in the wild.

Out of 900 snakes that would leave us with 9 surviving adults.
But lets be reasonable here...give them a bonus...lets say that 12 Burmese Pythons out of that group of 900 survive to reach adult breeder age/size.
Now, figure that half of them are males and half are females.
That leaves us with 6 breeder Female Burmese Pythons to start our Everglades Feral Colony.

Above "rough math" is just hypothetical....
Want to know the facts?

Using DNA samples researchers were able to trace the Everglades population back to 5 founding females...all of them were of Vietnam origin.
Import documents reflect that the "Hurricane Andrew 900 Hatchling Burmese"....originated from...you guessed it….. Vietnam.

These introduced snakes were not the result of careless pet owners...they were introduced because of a natural disaster.

Animal Rights Extremists love to perpetuate (and encourage the Media to perpetuate) this finger pointing blame game.
They point to animal keepers as the problem... basically labeling reptile keepers as irresponsible and careless slobs.
This is both unjust and untrue.
As the Media continues to chant the Animal Extremist Mantra, irresponsible, uninformed politicians draft new bills that essentially punish a Nation of people for a relatively minor problem that only exists in the Southern TIP of ONE STATE. A problem that our natural climatic patterns almost solved this last winter! It is a problem that pet owners, business owners and hobbyists did not cause.

I encourage everyone to stand up and be counted.
Follow the USARK guidelines and submit your public comment.
Let other people know what is really happening.
Encourage others to help protect the rights we currently have.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

That was one of the best reads posted on here in a long time!!!!

Pitoon

>>The interesting thing about the Florida Problem...
>>
>>There is a Burmese Python population in the Everglades...(at least there still was until before this last winter)....but we have solid evidence, based on country-of-origin import records and DNA samples, which disproves the theory of "irresponsible pet owners" releasing these snakes into the Everglades.
>>The feral population of Burmese Pythons was a product of hurricane Andrew. It was NOT caused by careless keepers.
>>Yet the media continues to chant that tired, old (false) mantra.
>>The general public needs to know the facts.
>>
>>Another interesting study was conducted by prominent a Herpetologist and Professor at CU, Dr. David Chizar. In 1995 I listened to Dr. Chizar's presentation of this study, while attending the International Herpetological Symposium.
>>
>>This study looked at the feasibility of re-introducing captive bred "head started" Aruba Island Rattlesnakes (C. unicolor) to their NATIVE habitat, within an area set aside as a wildlife reserve.
>>
>>They ran into some interesting data.
>>Comparing the "head started" captive bred snakes with wild snakes they found that the "head started" snakes essentially had "imprinting" problems. They would not be suited to survive in wild. These "head started" snakes lacked the skills needed to survive in their natural environment.
>>
>>Wild Caught snakes reacted correctly to stimuli:
>>They sought refuge of heavy piles of rock or similar shelter when faced with a potential predator. (Such as a human or a dog.)
>>
>>"Head Started" snakes would often associate humans with food....as they were used to receiving feedings from humans.
>>Inside the cage they would often witness the “head-started” c.b. snakes rubbing their faces on the glass in anticipation of feeding when these snakes saw humans.....or even when they saw Dr.Chizar's dog!
>>(Chizar often had his dog in the lab during the evening feeding sessions....and the snakes would associate human or canine presence with the offering of food items.)
>>
>>I have also witnessed this face-on-the-glass-rubbing in several species of snakes including Elapids, Pythons, Boas, several Colubrid species and also Crotalus species. We often refer to this activity as "begging".
>>
>>Wild snakes were able to effectively track their prey items after the bite.
>>C.B. head-started snakes performed very poorly at this task. They often failed altogether.
>>
>>Dr. Chizar did a tongue flicks per minute study while the snakes were tracking their prey items.
>>The wild caught snakes scored off the chart...and rarely if ever got off course while tracking.
>>The “head-started” snakes scored poorly with low tongue flicks per minute and often got off track....sometimes they were unable to complete the task.
>>
>>Head-Started snakes have a greater chance of being introduced to (and infected with) fatal reptilian diseases, while in captivity. This further diminishes their chances of surviving in the wild after re-introduction. It also opens more possibilities of spreading diseases to the wild populations.
>>
>>One cannot help but draw similarities in the data this study revealed to a similar "Recovery Project" which was aimed at the re-introduction of Carolina Parakeets.
>>Adult birds were selected as the best possible breeding stock... from some of the nations top bird breeders....this was also to provide genetic diversity within the new population of "recovery subjects".
>>The birds were banded and tracked.
>>Every single bird died. The project was an epic failure.
>>These birds lacked the essential skills needed to thrive in the wild. They were dependent on humans for skills that they were not able to learn from their avian parents.
>>
>>The vast majority of Burmese Pythons in captivity... were hatched in captivity.
>>These Pet Burmese Pythons do not have the skills needed to survive in the wild. Escaped pet Burmese Pythons....or even Burmese Pythons "purportedly released" would be lucky to survive past the one year mark, outside of the captive environment.
>>
>>The Burmese Pythons which inhabit the Everglades National Park
>>were introduced as hatchling imports. A group of 900 babies that were not yet imprinted to human care or captive conditions.
>>During Hurricane Andrew these snakes escaped because of the destruction of a wholesale facility near the Everglades National Park. It was the result of a natural disaster which introduced these snakes to the Everglades....It was not the act of irresponsible pet owners or reptile keepers.
>>
>>So....lets do a little rough math here.
>>Statistically speaking, 1 Out of 100 hatchling snakes will survive natural predation, human interaction, disease etc. to mature as a breeding adult.
>>This 1/100th reduction in population leaves you with an animal that has gained a lifetime of the necessary skills for survival in the wild.
>>
>>Out of 900 snakes that would leave us with 9 surviving adults.
>>But lets be reasonable here...give them a bonus...lets say that 12 Burmese Pythons out of that group of 900 survive to reach adult breeder age/size.
>>Now, figure that half of them are males and half are females.
>>That leaves us with 6 breeder Female Burmese Pythons to start our Everglades Feral Colony.
>>
>>Above "rough math" is just hypothetical....
>>Want to know the facts?
>>
>>Using DNA samples researchers were able to trace the Everglades population back to 5 founding females...all of them were of Vietnam origin.
>>Import documents reflect that the "Hurricane Andrew 900 Hatchling Burmese"....originated from...you guessed it….. Vietnam.
>>
>>These introduced snakes were not the result of careless pet owners...they were introduced because of a natural disaster.
>>
>>Animal Rights Extremists love to perpetuate (and encourage the Media to perpetuate) this finger pointing blame game.
>>They point to animal keepers as the problem... basically labeling reptile keepers as irresponsible and careless slobs.
>>This is both unjust and untrue.
>>As the Media continues to chant the Animal Extremist Mantra, irresponsible, uninformed politicians draft new bills that essentially punish a Nation of people for a relatively minor problem that only exists in the Southern TIP of ONE STATE. A problem that our natural climatic patterns almost solved this last winter! It is a problem that pet owners, business owners and hobbyists did not cause.
>>
>>I encourage everyone to stand up and be counted.
>>Follow the USARK guidelines and submit your public comment.
>>Let other people know what is really happening.
>>Encourage others to help protect the rights we currently have.
>>
>>Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
>>970-245-7611
>>970-255-9255
-----
Homepage
My BLOG
2010 European Shows

Good post-but I don't remember ever hearing of that "Carolina Parakeet" project. Since that species went extinct in the first decades of the last century (somewhat unexpectedly and suddenly-possibly the result of poultry disease), I think you may have it confused with a similar project to attempt to reintroduce captive bred thick-billed parrots to the mountains of Arizona?
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

as always!

SATAN

>>The interesting thing about the Florida Problem...
>>
>>There is a Burmese Python population in the Everglades...(at least there still was until before this last winter)....but we have solid evidence, based on country-of-origin import records and DNA samples, which disproves the theory of "irresponsible pet owners" releasing these snakes into the Everglades.
>>The feral population of Burmese Pythons was a product of hurricane Andrew. It was NOT caused by careless keepers.
>>Yet the media continues to chant that tired, old (false) mantra.
>>The general public needs to know the facts.
>>
>>Another interesting study was conducted by prominent a Herpetologist and Professor at CU, Dr. David Chizar. In 1995 I listened to Dr. Chizar's presentation of this study, while attending the International Herpetological Symposium.
>>
>>This study looked at the feasibility of re-introducing captive bred "head started" Aruba Island Rattlesnakes (C. unicolor) to their NATIVE habitat, within an area set aside as a wildlife reserve.
>>
>>They ran into some interesting data.
>>Comparing the "head started" captive bred snakes with wild snakes they found that the "head started" snakes essentially had "imprinting" problems. They would not be suited to survive in wild. These "head started" snakes lacked the skills needed to survive in their natural environment.
>>
>>Wild Caught snakes reacted correctly to stimuli:
>>They sought refuge of heavy piles of rock or similar shelter when faced with a potential predator. (Such as a human or a dog.)
>>
>>"Head Started" snakes would often associate humans with food....as they were used to receiving feedings from humans.
>>Inside the cage they would often witness the “head-started” c.b. snakes rubbing their faces on the glass in anticipation of feeding when these snakes saw humans.....or even when they saw Dr.Chizar's dog!
>>(Chizar often had his dog in the lab during the evening feeding sessions....and the snakes would associate human or canine presence with the offering of food items.)
>>
>>I have also witnessed this face-on-the-glass-rubbing in several species of snakes including Elapids, Pythons, Boas, several Colubrid species and also Crotalus species. We often refer to this activity as "begging".
>>
>>Wild snakes were able to effectively track their prey items after the bite.
>>C.B. head-started snakes performed very poorly at this task. They often failed altogether.
>>
>>Dr. Chizar did a tongue flicks per minute study while the snakes were tracking their prey items.
>>The wild caught snakes scored off the chart...and rarely if ever got off course while tracking.
>>The “head-started” snakes scored poorly with low tongue flicks per minute and often got off track....sometimes they were unable to complete the task.
>>
>>Head-Started snakes have a greater chance of being introduced to (and infected with) fatal reptilian diseases, while in captivity. This further diminishes their chances of surviving in the wild after re-introduction. It also opens more possibilities of spreading diseases to the wild populations.
>>
>>One cannot help but draw similarities in the data this study revealed to a similar "Recovery Project" which was aimed at the re-introduction of Carolina Parakeets.
>>Adult birds were selected as the best possible breeding stock... from some of the nations top bird breeders....this was also to provide genetic diversity within the new population of "recovery subjects".
>>The birds were banded and tracked.
>>Every single bird died. The project was an epic failure.
>>These birds lacked the essential skills needed to thrive in the wild. They were dependent on humans for skills that they were not able to learn from their avian parents.
>>
>>The vast majority of Burmese Pythons in captivity... were hatched in captivity.
>>These Pet Burmese Pythons do not have the skills needed to survive in the wild. Escaped pet Burmese Pythons....or even Burmese Pythons "purportedly released" would be lucky to survive past the one year mark, outside of the captive environment.
>>
>>The Burmese Pythons which inhabit the Everglades National Park
>>were introduced as hatchling imports. A group of 900 babies that were not yet imprinted to human care or captive conditions.
>>During Hurricane Andrew these snakes escaped because of the destruction of a wholesale facility near the Everglades National Park. It was the result of a natural disaster which introduced these snakes to the Everglades....It was not the act of irresponsible pet owners or reptile keepers.
>>
>>So....lets do a little rough math here.
>>Statistically speaking, 1 Out of 100 hatchling snakes will survive natural predation, human interaction, disease etc. to mature as a breeding adult.
>>This 1/100th reduction in population leaves you with an animal that has gained a lifetime of the necessary skills for survival in the wild.
>>
>>Out of 900 snakes that would leave us with 9 surviving adults.
>>But lets be reasonable here...give them a bonus...lets say that 12 Burmese Pythons out of that group of 900 survive to reach adult breeder age/size.
>>Now, figure that half of them are males and half are females.
>>That leaves us with 6 breeder Female Burmese Pythons to start our Everglades Feral Colony.
>>
>>Above "rough math" is just hypothetical....
>>Want to know the facts?
>>
>>Using DNA samples researchers were able to trace the Everglades population back to 5 founding females...all of them were of Vietnam origin.
>>Import documents reflect that the "Hurricane Andrew 900 Hatchling Burmese"....originated from...you guessed it….. Vietnam.
>>
>>These introduced snakes were not the result of careless pet owners...they were introduced because of a natural disaster.
>>
>>Animal Rights Extremists love to perpetuate (and encourage the Media to perpetuate) this finger pointing blame game.
>>They point to animal keepers as the problem... basically labeling reptile keepers as irresponsible and careless slobs.
>>This is both unjust and untrue.
>>As the Media continues to chant the Animal Extremist Mantra, irresponsible, uninformed politicians draft new bills that essentially punish a Nation of people for a relatively minor problem that only exists in the Southern TIP of ONE STATE. A problem that our natural climatic patterns almost solved this last winter! It is a problem that pet owners, business owners and hobbyists did not cause.
>>
>>I encourage everyone to stand up and be counted.
>>Follow the USARK guidelines and submit your public comment.
>>Let other people know what is really happening.
>>Encourage others to help protect the rights we currently have.
>>
>>Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
>>970-245-7611
>>970-255-9255
-----
"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Very interesting Harlin. So if they have the DNA evidence that proves where the problem started why do the reptile breeders and keepers continue to get all the blame. Last I checked a hurricane is an act of God that man has little to zero control over. The facts are the facts and any good lawyer would be able to set the record straight if he/she has all the proper documents in front of him/her one would think. You'd think scientific evidence would be worth something , it always is when the government releases their findings from United Fish and Wildlife or the DNR so why would this information be any less important towards knowing how the established population really ended up there in the first place????

Anthony McCain

n/p
-----
This is courage.. to bear unflinching what heaven sends. -unknown

1.0 Basset Hound (Capone)
1.1 cats (San Quinton and Gracie)

Everything above may be 100% true, but it is, to the biologists and regulators, also irrelevant. Their argument is that regardless of whether the founder animals were released pets or escapees from a wholesaler's compound, they are STILL the responsibility of the pet reptile industry, one way or another.

Not saying I agree, just that that is the position they've been taking.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad,
What you are saying is also 100% correct.

But it is how this situation is handled that is important.
How we got here is admittedly less important than solving the problem. My point is that politicians generally legislate in the direction of majority public perception....not necessarily in the direction of truth.
The extremist agenda has been supported by an ill-informed media.
The general public believes (erroneously, as they have been spoon fed a pack of lies) that the problem was caused by irresponsible pet owners. If we want support from the general public, people need to know the facts.

People need to see that we are not only supportive, but also active when it comes to a solution to the problem of Burmese Pythons in the Everglades. Regardless of how the mess was made...we are ready, able and willing to help in an effort to clean it up. But we are not willing to allow ourselves to be slandered by misleading agendas spawned by extremist organizations with ulterior motives...and perpetuated by media who only wish to sensationalize for the sake of ratings.

I would love to see a well done USARK/PIJAC commercial run nationally on T.V. Something that informs people of the facts.
Something that shows how "Big Govt" is still worming it's way into our daily lives, in the name of special interest groups.
It would be nice to toot our own horns for a change...and show that we are indeed professional, organized and that we care about the animals we maintain as well as the environment.

If we want support....we will have to give the general public a reason to support us. So far they have only been hearing the opposition.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

I agree, perception is everything. I'm skeptical that we will ever be seen, by the general public, as anything other than "a bunch of weirdo snake lovers", however.

I think the most important thing to publicize right now is the UTTER DECIMATION of the glades pythons by this past winter's cold snap. This should prove, beyond reasonable doubt, the complete falsehood of the USGS "potential range map"...
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Sounds like we are on the same page Brad.

And, by the way....I looked into the Carolina Parakeet thing....
You were right, it was the Thick Billed Parrot...the Arizona reintroduction efforts took place in the early 80's. (I love wikipedia) The reintroduction was a disaster. The captive bred birds did not know how to contend with the natural predators.
Guess I just mistakenly named the wrong species.
Glad you caught that one.
Take care bud.

Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

Great post! Would you mind posting this over in the boa forum, or mind if I reposted it? I would hate for anyone to miss it
-----
06
0.2 h albino
07
0.1 dh snow
0.2 leticia
1.1 triple het
0.1 albino h snow
08
2.1 hypo hog
0.1 sunset
1.0 ghost
0.1 arabesque dh stripe alb
1.1 h type 2 anery
0.1 pastel motley
0.1 leticia
1.0 hypo ph bloody sharp
0.2 ph bloody sharp
1.0 h blood
0.1 sunglow poss super
1.2 anery h snow
0.2 albino h snow
1.1 50% guyana h albino
0.1 triple het
0.1 ghost h albino
1.0 jungle h anery ph albino
0.1 pastel het albino
09
1.1 dh blizzard
0.1 h albino
0.1 jungle h albino
1.0 motley h albino ph snow
1.0 albino h snow
1.0 anery h snow
1.1 hypo dh stripe albino
and 25 balls

We're definitely in agreement, Harlin.

The reintroductions which have been successful (whooping cranes, California Condors, etc) have all had to go to great lengths to shield the captive-hatched offspring from contact with human keepers. It's not an easy thing to accomplish.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

One thing that I learned from Dr. David Chizar's study is that captive breeding efforts could be utilized for conservation.

It would not be feasible for most zoological institutions or government run organizations.
You would need a large number on captive bred offspring to make it really work. And it would require a large group of people to accomplish the goal.

If you would...please imagine with me for a moment...

Suppose that Ball Pythons were rare in the wild.
(obviously this is a fantasy.)

We know that you have the best reintroduction results by releasing fresh hatched babies...and even then you statistically lose 99 out of 100 individuals due to predation, disease etc.
Imagine if every breeder was required to donate 10 fresh hatched neonates to a reintroduction program before they could take part in any commercial activity.
All the hatchlings would have to be certified as healthy by a certified veterinarian.
(Fresh Babies have a yolk reserve...and this would help buy some time for the health evaluation.)

The best part....here is that outlet for your normal babies!
lol.

Everyone who breeds snakes (of any species) is driven by that childlike wonderment....excited to see their babies pip the eggs and take their first breath of life.
But we must also admit that there is also a financial/commercial incentive.

Each year there could be thousands of normal babies utilized for reintroduction efforts. It would help to provide genetic diversity and a constant influx of new animals to the reintroduction program.
For this to work...there needs to be a financial/commercial incentive. There needs to be a large group of breeders...and a large captive population to draw from.
This is not a job that would be effectively run by a small government organization...it would not be feasible to be handled by zoos alone.
Really the only way for this type of reintroduction program to work would be to utilize the efforts of dedicated breeders.

I will be the first to admit...it sounds like a silly pipe dream when you initially hear about it....but if "head-started" babies do not make good candidates for reintroduction...what other choices do you really have. Think about that for a little bit.
I believe it could actually work.
Of course Ball Pythons are just used as an example.
If you place a financial incentive behind the species you wish to help preserve. The commercial value could be the fuel to power your conservation/reintroduction efforts.

Just a few thoughts.
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

Again, I have to agree wholeheartedly with your theoretical scenario. Yes, it would be a difficult and complex undertaking, with success by no means assured-but what truly worthwhile goal is easy? At the very least excellent public relations for breeders, and at best something really important could be accomplished. Probably the biggest obstacle to overcome would be institutional resistance from the "professional zoo" folks.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Oh Brad....you hit the nail on the head with that last line!

Perhaps resistance from the Govt. too?
lol.

We are definitely thinking along the same lines.

I must admit...I do know some very dedicated zoo folks...who feel the same way. I think most people who really care more about the animals than any job titles, would like to see the rift between the zoological sector and the private sector vanish to some degree.
Both parties have a lot to offer...it will be nice when we can actually work together wholeheartedly, as a team.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

There will have to be major changes on the zoo's front for that to happen. With the official position of most zoos being opposed to private keeping of exotics, it'll be hard for most of us to work with them...despite the fact that most herp keepers at zoos are more reasonable, there's people over them that write policy. And the AZA isn't exactly fond of private sector keeping either.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Always enjoy your posts
Grant

Thank you to all those who replied.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

Love the article!

Out of curiosity, does anyone know why the vietnam shipment was here? Beginning pet trade, skins, what?
-----
1.0 speckled kingsnake
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake
0.1 tricolor hognose
0.1 water python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 green tree python

There was a market back then for normal c.h. babies which would make it profitable to import Burmese Pythons for the pet trade.
This is what that Vietnam shipment was intended for.
They are so commonly bred in captivity now, that it is hardly profitable to consider importing normal baby Burms.

Funny...not so many years ago people used to pay an arm and a leg for Bearded Dragons too. But captive breeding efforts have made the normal "Beardies" plentiful and inexpensive.

If there is a financial incentive for captive bred animals of any species, they can become common in captivity. (Dumerils Boas would also make a good example....although, we sure could use some fresh genetics to dilute the inbreeding situation.)
Captive breeding certainly alleviates the need to continue importing large numbers of wild collected animals...especially in the cases of animals who's survival may be threatened.

I would like to see more people concentrating on breeding amphibian species and Asian turtles too.
So many species....so little time...and so little space!

Take care,
Harlin

AZA's attitude toward the private sector is starting to change...they now have "non-institutional" accreditation (which is used for conservation centers, breeding fscilities, etc.) and they are drafting new language currently to start recognizing and allowing private individuals to participate in captive breeding efforts. The powers that be at AZA recognize that the private sector is light years ahead of them in the areas of fish, coral, bird, herp, and insect propogation; and wants to mend the rift and take advantage of the knowledge base present in the private sector. Traditionally, AZA didn't care for the private sector because in a way it competed with them. If you could buy a (fill in the blank) whay would you pay to go see one in a cage at a zoo? But they now recogize that the private sector is too valuable of a resource to ignore--not to mention gives a greater depth to the budget of species management programs. As more and more of the old school guys retire, a partnership grows nearer and nearer. Wait and see.

I would think that the introduction of Burmese Pythons being caused by Andrew would be just as bad if not worse then the bad owner argument. Because then it doesn't matter if the owners of these reptiles are responsible; a large hurricane could cause the introduction of foreign species into the ecosystem.

the 2 scenarios is that in the sensationalized one pushed by humaniacs and politicians, hundreds, or even thousands, of irresponsible pet owners form a continuous line to the Glades, dropping off unwanted pythons over the last few decades until the present (SLIGHT exaggeration, but not MUCH!).

In the more likely scenario, a couple of dealers were underprepared for a natural catastatrophe, perhaps aided by an OCCASIONAL irresponsible pet keeper who OCCASIONALLY released a pet python that may or may not have survived to add to the gene pool.

EVERY profession and hobby will have a FEW irresponsible people in it - that is human nature. But reading most news accounts would leave the average person to assume that it is the CUSTOM for MOST petkeepers to drive all of the way down to the Glades (from wherever they live) to release their overgrown snake, and that is where the problem has come from. Ridiculous to us, but what is the average person to think?

I think the sensationalized version does a lot more damage to the credibility of our industry than the version that is probably truly what happened.

that florida now has regulations in place to prevent the introduction of the ROC by requiring everyone to have an evacuation policy in place. Back when Andrew went through, nobody thought that type of devistation could occur.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Even though the ROC regulations have been in place for a while now, you will STILL read articles that make it sound like people are STILL dropping off hordes of giant snakes, almost every day. Very rarely will a mainstream article mention that Florida has already addressed the problem.

If laws are the solution, Florida has already solved the problem of new introductions. But if there are still scofflaws who are illegally keeping and releasing exotics (such as the UNLICENSED owner who let his 8' albino python ALLEGEDLY kill the 2 year old child last year), then why would they comply with a ban? I have never seen any mainstream articles deal very logically with those points.

Hmmm....

I am not sure I can side with your line of logic. No offense.
Certainly your perspective did cross my mind.
But let me explain my point of view.

I am sure that the same sort of trouble could arise from a hurricane's destruction of Animal Shelters, Zoological Parks, Research Facilities, Veterinary Clinics and countless other businesses.
Natural Disasters are exactly that....they are disasters, not caused by man.
A hurricane could effect many different types of businesses...not only those involving animals.
The damage caused by natural disasters to a multitude of different types of businesses could cause lots of problems in the environment.

Yet we do not blame the owners of those businesses....we understand that it was a terrible accident with negative consequences. We do not attempt to cast blame on these other types of businesses and then legislate them out of existence. We wouldn't try to pass laws that effect people who do not live in areas prone to hurricanes.

We should help with a logical, economical and productive solution to the problem. We should not be blamed for the aftermath of a natural disaster. Instead, this should serve as a wake up call or a lesson, for ALL other businesses to take proactive steps in order to help prevent similar problems in the future. It shines a light on situations that ALL business need to be prepared to handle. Hurricane, Tornado, Flood, Fire or whatever could happen.

If animals escaped from a major zoo, as the result of a hurricane, we would not blame the zoo....we would not make it illegal to operate a zoo in the entire United States.

The problem in the Everglades National Park exists...but the problem is not only Burmese Pythons. The Everglades has a host of other problems....perhaps MUCH more serious problems.
Mercury and other pollution. Feral Cats, Dogs, Pigs.
Think about all the human encroachment and wetland drainage that has taken place in the last 100 yrs. This list could go on and on...
The major problem of the Everglades is not Burmese Pythons.

Nonetheless, the Burmese Python problem needs to be addressed with a REAL solution....as do ALL the other problems.
The solutions to these problems should be logical.
REAL solutions should not ruin the livelihoods of thousands of people across America. Neither should shoddy legislation backed by extremist special interest groups.

Thanks,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255