Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A new melanistic species of monitor lizard
(Reptilia: Squamata: Varanidae) from Sanana Island, Indonesia
VALTER S-Å WEIJOLA & SAMUEL S. SWEET

Zootaxa 2434: 17–32

Hello Harold
I keep a few of these lizards and have photos available for publication if you need.

Prove it!!

>>Prove it!!

I was thinking the same thing

Jobi,this is a newly discovered species

Greg
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1.1 Varanus Rudicollis(Black roughneck monitor)
1.2 Tokay gecko
0.0.1 Ornate box turtle

Newly discovered, actually means, to be newly identified by current science. The animals have been in there for many thousands of years, in most cases, they are been seen by man, collected by man, killed, consumed, exported etc. Just not identified by current(newest methods)science.

A few years ago I was talking to J Caan, in Sidney. I told him i found several undescribed ozzie monitors, he said, get in line, he has 27 species of undescribed turtles that no one wants to work with.

There are hundreds of newly described herps every year. Science is not on the cutting edge of species identification. In the case of varanids, there are no teams of varanid biologist searching the world for new species.

New species generally are accidental finds by "other" biologists or lay people.

Its also nothing against varanid biologist, they tend to work on known species, not wasting their time with the unknown.

Back to the subject of this thread, there is a huge difference between newly described and how long they have been known of by man. As to whether Jobi has them or not, well he said he had pics. Cheers

Hello Frank nice to read of you again.

you know how it works, indo dealers find new animals and try to exports as many before someone officialy names them,after that its no more export. why? simply because the indo governament do not issue export document for animals they have not reconised.
this is why try-colored monitors use to be exported with kalabek cites, others with indicus or kordensis cites.
none of the 12 new species have been exported with proper documents sins 1995. thats why the dealers keep (try to keep) low prifile with new animals.

I am at present working with 4 unknown varanids (one from Mozambique) (one from Papuasie) (2 from the mollucas)

given the atitude I will not share photos with him, I dont need nor do I want hahaha

you take care
regards

The same was true of many of the new prasinus group, they were imported as beccarri or prasinus. I am glad to see your well. Cheers

FR said: "Newly discovered, actually means, to be newly identified by current science. The animals have been in there for many thousands of years, in most cases, they are been seen by man, collected by man, killed, consumed, exported etc. Just not identified by current(newest methods) science."

I don't see where anybody was claiming otherwise... In fact if you read the actual paper describing the species, which I seriously doubt you have, you will see that the authors discuss the local name given for the monitor as "soa soa hitam" ("black monitor" in Indonesian).

FR said: "In the case of varanids, there are no teams of varanid biologist searching the world for new species."

You are wrong, and I suggest that you get your facts straight before posting something like this. The two authors of this species' description have been traveling throughout the Moluccas, Indonesia for the past two years, surveying many of the thousands of islands in this region, learning which species dwell on each island, and studying aspects of their ecology. There has already been a published report on some of this research (much much more to come) in the current issue of Biawak

varanidae.org/Vol4_No1_Weijola.pdf

FR said: "Its also nothing against varanid biologist, they tend to work on known species, not wasting their time with the unknown."

Again, while this may have been true in the past, as I've mentioned above, the two authors to this species description have indeed been "wasting their time with the unknown".

FR said: "Back to the subject of this thread, there is a huge difference between newly described and how long they have been known of by man."

Again, aren't you stating the obvious here? It is obvious that this species did not magically appear when, and only when the authors landed on Sanana for field research... Nobody is claiming otherwise (the authors even acknowledge that it was known by locals).

Is this an attempt to discredit their discovery of this species? If you read the description, you will find that Varanus obor was discovered independently through the course of field work, not through fuzzy leads from animal collectors.

Do you actually have something constructive to contribute to this discussion about the discovery and description of this new species, or do you just want to play "armchair taxonomy critic" from your home computer? Have you ever been to the Moluccas? Seen any monitors there?

Varanus obor was discovered independently through the course of field work, not through fuzzy leads from animal collectors.

sorry but if you ar talking about the black indicus with redish specles (and I think you ar!!) this animal has been aronde for some years, I have 6 at present.

you should know that animal colectors have little interest to lead anyone to new specie location.
Sam Sweet may have fund a monitor unkown to him, but it is not unknown to some of us.

I guess now that its named varanus obor dealers wont export them with indicus cites anymore? like all the indicus group you guy have named in recent years.

ps. by the way war anus whats wrong with your identity?
pleas post in a manner that we know who we ar talking with.

Jobi wrote: "sorry but if you ar talking about the black indicus with redish specles (and I think you ar!!) this animal has been aronde for some years, I have 6 at present..."

"...Sam Sweet may have fund a monitor unkown to him, but it is not unknown to some of us."

If you are indeed truthful in your claims, and have kept, or currently keep this species, please enlighten us with a few photos of your specimens. After all, your secret of having them is no longer a secret. What harm can be done by showing us some of your present captives...

I apologize for my skepticism, but until you show us some photos, I'm going to have to call BS on this one (as I'm sure many others will as well).

As for my handle, I suppose some of my keyboard's keys got stuck while typing.

talk with me like a man and I will show respect.

you know I love you body.

n/p

I whould have sent photos to Harold but only under my conditions, id have use his email as proof of our understanding.

WHY?
because my past experience with the wolf pack has made me wiser and less trusting.

for example take Bernd Eidenmuller book Warane, on page 111 you see one of my varanus salvatorii from Merauke (photo credit) on page 77 my first varanus jobiensis hatcheling (photo credit) but on page 61 a new locality varanus finschi ssp (no photo credit?) why is this? it is one of my breeders and I am the one who imported them to Canada.

Bernd is one fine gentlemen, I am 100% sure this was not his decision to omite photo credit,who then?
this answer is on page 5.

you may think whatever you want, the fact is that I was the first to import many unknown species, this includs (yuwonoi, melinus, caerulivirensis, cerambonesis, juxtindicus and macraei.
and eversince they have been named by sience no one can import them anymore.

but wait a minute thats not all 6 of the animals iv imported have yet to be named as of today.
do you really think I am dumb enough to help these guys stop me from keeping these lizards?

truly I dont care about them or what they print, I keep animals because I am selfish and enjoy thire company.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how any of this has to do with people asking you for evidence to support your bold claims that:

a) this new species, Varanus obor, has been known by you and the pet trade for many years

b) that you currently keep specimens of this new species, V. obor in captivity.

Again, I don't see what damage can be done by posting photos- the species is no longer a secret, nor is its locality, nor is your secret of keeping them in your collection.

Can you please stop offering lame excuses, and just post photographs of your alleged specimens already?

read the thred again, where have i said that I was willing to post photos on this forum?
I never said this and never will, not because its a secret or any such futilities, but simply because I am not interested period.

I posted my first post out of good will, it was a gesture of generosity and nothing more. Harold chose to close the door on me by being rude, this and I thank him for it, broth me back to my senses. I have no need to share with them, I have never felt the need to do this, the few times I did it was to pleas my old friend Mark Bayless.

The last time I was in contac with Sweet he flat lied to me, rest asured it was no big lie, nothing to damage his reputation, but nevertheless he said he wasent working on any paper regarding varanus salvadorii, yet his partner and frind Hans Goerge Horn thold me otherwise, I knew even befor he contacted me that he was working on the next Mertenciela.

so yes I am guilty of playing him a little hihihi

Dave I have nothing againts any of you guys, in fact I follow much of everyone work with interest.

you need to chill out and take these forums for what they are, a place to have fun and share, I share in ways you just dont understand.

promis if I realy wanted to be bad, id have the entier wolf pack up and steeming to remouve my post asap.

but no I like them the way they are.

the point is they dont have much to offer me, that in itself must be frostrating?

"Dave I have nothing againts any of you guys..."

Is this aimed at me, or another 'Dave'?

What dont tell me this is not your work, I mean who els whould pull this fatal attraction move on me?

just kidding get back to luch and have a cold one on me.

sorry but as much as I would love to stay I must leave for Nunavut in 15min. it realy was a plesure feeling this forums puls again.

to you Dave and Frank I wish all the best, both of you have given me alot thru the years.

will post again in a few months.

rgds

ps. to all others just wanted to tikkle your fancy, no hard feelings.

Hi Whomever you are,
Here's the deal, something was said, I then said my piece. Then you attack me. Good on you. Jobi was right, some things never change.

If you knew how to read, you would have noticed, my post is something to think about. To think about, to consider, to ponder. That is something that is very educational to do. I did not say, to believe, to take as 100% hard fact. I said To consider.

The problem appears, you and some others may not have ability to think and form your own views. You seem to want to read something and either believe it or discount it. To believe someone elses stuff(academic again)Sir, that is your problem and thank god not mine.

You lost your direction when you ended with the statement about the "discovery" of a new species. The error is, as you mentioned, its the description of a new species, not the discovery. As you pointed out, the locals already named it. Which I believe is my point.

I do have an important question for you. What makes it more important, the locals who named it, or the recent renaming of it by current science? What I find funny is, our science will in all probability rename it time and time again, yet the locals will still know the animal by their useful name. Or what good will science naming it a new species, be to the animal. Will it help the animal in any way, other then bringing more attention to collectors, poachers, prod and pokers???? Will science renaming it, help the animal in any way? Cheers

Greg I have photos of these black monitors sins 2004, thats when they where first offered to me by my indo friend.
and hers a post from the same era, things dont change much do they?
Link

If I offended you then I'm sorry.That was not my intentions.This species was discovered by someone who I have a lot of respect for.What you and FR said makes sence too.I also have some respect for FR,I may not agree with some of the things he says but hes got a pretty good track record.(some of his post make you think)If you do have pictures of this animal I would love to see them.

Greg
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1.1 Varanus Rudicollis(Black roughneck monitor)
2.0.3 Varanus jobiesis
0.0.1 Ornate box turtle

no way you have not offended me, but I will say what offends me.

look at all the new varanid species and most of the old, reaserch them and you will find a common denominator. they are all name by the same group of pepoles (I kindly refer to them as the wolf pack) some ar named after spowse, dealers, birders, friends and just about anyone near or far. examples salvatorii was an italian birder, yowonoy is an indo exporter (never been to halamahera)but he did keep a group of captive of yowonoy as I did 2 years befor him. I did not nor did he discover that monitor, this animal was first seen by an american herper who so happens to deal in export& import. from memory not 100% sure Bill Love or the Barkers? anyway its from there observation that dealers in indo started sherch of new monitors in that erea.

its guys like D Gunalem in Jakarta and his brothers living in Irian jaya that make 99% new animals discoveries, these ar the real macoy, they put a lot of efforts and suffer tragedies in the process. when they actualy discovered 5 new monitors from the molucas, that year 2004 the entier crew was hijaked by pirates and left naked on an island. it took sometime befor they whent back at location.

so hears my view, let Sam Sweet tell us about his discovery,and then I will share a few photos and emails with you regarding those black dragons.
meanwhile I am not interested, no offence!

ps. hope you enjoy your experience with the world most beautifull monitor (jobiensis)

Hi Greg, First off, having respect for someone has nothing to do with this post. Your talking about someone who wrote a paper, not found the monitor for the first time ever.

There are still dozens upon dozens of undescribed monitors. And many have been seen by herpers. Many many have been on occasion in the pet trade.

What you said kinda of bothers me because many of you believe things based on how you feel about the author, which is totally wrong. You really should base your thoughts on what is right or wrong, not who wrote them.

That has been a real problem here with varanids. Hes a good guy so it must be right, or hes not so good so it must be wrong. Or he says it in a way I don't like so its wrong. Sir that tells me you really do not know right or wrong, you just believe people. Which is academic. With monitors, the rubber does meet the road(non academic) On this forum, its hands on, which is where the rubber meets the road. And that is totally different then academic. Please think about that.

Which is exactly what Jobi pointed out in his link. Cheers

In the old days, Jobi and I played good cop, bad cop, we did so because it was very entertaining and lots and lots of GREAT information came out.

It got to the point of advanced learning on my part. Jobi is a genius he has ablities that few know of. He would tell you the public something, and you would believe it, then the next day or two, he would tell you he lied, then you would believe that, the a couple days later, go back to the original statement, and again many would believe that.

Then we would say something totally wrong in a very nice way, and most would totally believe you because its nice and what you want to hear, then the next day, say what is RIGHT in a rude harsh way and include proof, but folks would not believe it because how it was said, or who said it. Sirs and Ladies, its not about who said it, its about REAL information.

You all should have realized a long time ago, a student of behavior(me) enjoys behavior of all kinds.

And please do not tell me its my responsibility to teach you folks. Folks, its your responsibility to learn whats right. And without question, you should go by the information, not by who said it.

Academics in this context means, not applied to, aside from, is not used in practice. Applied information is information gained from the actual doing or actual observation of. As in, not done in the classroom, but done in a way that produces results.
I say that because what folks here on a husbandry forum should be looking at is what is being applied and works. Again, something to think about. Cheers

FR wrote: "Academics in this context means, not applied to, aside from, is not used in practice. Applied information is information gained from the actual doing or actual observation of."

I do not know what this has to do with the original discussion of this thread, which, in case you forgot, is the description of a new species of monitor to science. Again, if you actually read the paper describing the species, you will see that the authors actually traveled to Sanana ("doing") and have spent weeks in the field studying and observing the species in the wild ("actual observation of").

So please, if your post is not meant to denigrate the authors of this new species, which I highly suspect it is, explain to us how their discovery and description of this new species does not qualify for, or meet the standards of your seemingly arbitrary definition of "applied information".

FR wrote: "As in, not done in the classroom, but done in a way that produces results. I say that because what folks here on a husbandry forum should be looking at is what is being applied and works. Again, something to think about. Cheers"

What does husbandry have to do with the description of a new species? Where does producing captive "results" fit in with the discovery and naming of a new species?

The original poster of this thread created this post to inform varanid enthusiasts that a really neat and fascinating monitor lizard was just formally described by science. Unlike other participants of this thread who have expressed interest in the actual species, you have decided to attack the scientists who put in the work to discover and describe this species, all the while resorting to the tiresome "should be applicable to, or based on captive results" argument?

That is flat-out crazy.

We were talking about believing or not believing information based on how you like or respect and who you don't, or how its said. Cheers

it seems like they missed the old times?

many including this one (particularly this one) ows us a lot.
we did have a possitive influance on many keepers.

They will never admit that part of there sucess came from this war zone.

sorry if I dont stay for this battle, I admite being tempted but this is not my computer and I must go back to Nunavut up north.

have fun old desert rat.

cheers

My respect for Mr Sweet has nothing to do with him being a nice guy,or someone I like.In fact I only know him though these fora.The material he posts or the advice he gives out just make sence to me.I agree with you that they probably not the first to find the monitor,and yes it is quite possible some have been imported before,and probably died in the hands an experienced keeper.Jobi claims to have kept this monitor,and claims to have photos.So why dose he not just show them,there are a few of us that are interested.

I do not have as much experince as you,and I can only follow your examples.But what I do is follow the advice that makes the most sence.I have followed your posts for a few years now,and you have helped me better understand my monitors.But I don't agree with everything you say(some of doesn't make sence)

Now I don't understand what you have against the"wolf pac"They like yourself have help make the advances in keeping these animals alive,and have helped hundreds of new and advanced keepers.

Sorry too go off topic

Greg
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1.1 Varanus Rudicollis(Black roughneck monitor)
2.0.3 Varanus jobiesis
0.0.1 Ornate box turtle

Hi Greg, My experience with Mr. Sweet is very much the opposite of yours.

As for Jobi not showing it. I do not blame him one bit. When folks ask for a favor, like to show the picture, they really should not attack you, then ask you to be nice and do them a favor. To show the picture is work Jobi has to do and its HIS property. To share his property is not automatic, he must choose to do that. Why would he choose to share with folks that are always attacking you?????

This is my experience with Mr. Sweet, he would attack and attack, then want information or for me to do some other WORK, or reveal products of my work. This does not make sense, if someone has something you want, you really should be nice to them. After asking nicely, you may recieve something of value. But to attack and expect the attacked to be nice back is STUPID.

Truely, I do not know if Jobi has or had this animal, but I was exposed to the same exporters he was and he is telling the truth.

I have pics of many many undiscribed varanids, sent to me from exporters. Its also fact that several of the recently discribed varanids were discovered from the import trade. In fact, most of them. Cheers

I have not been here in quite a while. Having read this whole page I must admit that it is highly entertaining. Most discussions here seem to evolve into some sort of food fight. I would like to ask jobi politely to please show us pictures of his animals when he or she gets back.