Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey everybody,

Me and my girlfriend have owned snakes for a few ears and have some experience, but all of the snakes we had before our precious little zoey have been 100% healthy with great appetites. So we have a couple questions, or maybe its just one big one to ask you all. Anyways,we got her at the last NARBC in tinley park IL, from Special K Reptiles. I have since emailed him with my trouble and he seems completely unworried, which basically means unhelpful at this point so I'm not sure if he knew the snake had a problem or not before we bought her.

The snake has not once since getting her taken a meal by herself. She was small when we got her, and she became almost nothing but skin and bones trying to feed her various fuzzies and pinkies, live and dead, before after a few weeks we decided to assist feed her.

We assist fed her and she took it well, and gained a bit of weight back. We had done this three weeks in a row, after she refuses the meal, but the past 2-3 weeks she has not let us even feed her this way. It was easy to get her to open her mouth, put the fuzzy in and let her go at first, but she just wont open her mouth for us anymore and when she does she spits the mouse out the second we put her down.

I was thinking she may be getting ready to shed, and for some reason refusing to take it any way we give it to her. But I dont have much experience with this and cant really make any assumptions. She is very skinny but has only lost 3 grams in the past 2 weeks(79 down to 77 grams) but has grown about 3-4 inches longer than what she was when we got her.

If anyone has any advice on what we should do, or think they know what may be wrong with her please respond. We are giving her another week to shape up and then its a trip to the vet.

Thanks

I don't know if you have a hide box in with her, but if you don't, place one with her. After she has been going into the hide box for a few days lock her into it anyway you can (tape the opening closed) then place a live mouse or rat in the hide box with her. Find out from the original breeder what she was eating prior to the sell, and place the same type of rodent in with her.
Good luck.
If you need to talk to me about the issue you can reach me on my cell at 408.981.6694
Best of luck.
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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

Put a LIVE mouse or rat in with a snake that is not eating and you are asking for trouble. The mouse/rat could injure or KILL the snake! Only would be save with fuzzies or smaller as they can't bite.
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1 BP
4 Cal Kings 3 alb 1 het
3 Alb Corn
1 Rev Alb Nelsons

You don't put the mouse/rat in and *walk away*. Whenever a live prey item is placed in a snake cage or tub, the feeding should always be observed. I also keep something on hand to place in the jaws of the rodent if it does get a chance to bite. Be a snake keeper and there is little or no danger to the snake.

Besides, in some of these cases the alternative is the snake slowly wasting away as it is constantly force/assist fed because it will not take a tiny prey item.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

I never said I left a mouse alone with the snake, ever...I am completely attentive and at gaurd, and tried live fuzzies, live SMALL mice just over fuzzies(when we first got her, at the advice of the guy we get her from). I was present the entire time.

We still try live fuzzies once a week and if shedoesnt take them we try to feed them to her freshly killed three days later and then force feed her if needed. The problem is she is spitting everything back up now, whereas at first she would dig in and eat it right after we put it in her mouth.

Sorry, I missed the first post and thought someone was accusing me of putting a live rodent in unattended...That is a sure way to have a severely injured or dead snake. I will not be doing that.

I have left live feeders in "semi-attended"! Put a couple pieces of dog food in the cage and make sure there's water! You just don't want your constant presence effecting the snake!

If your snake does not eat the mouse or rat within 10 minutes remove it and try again in a few days.

This method has worked wonders with some of my finicky ball pythons.

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

Hello,
you say you have owned snakes before, but have you owned a ball? They can be a challenge to any keeper. You have not given us any specs on your setup. Balls can stress easily sometimes, are your temps correct, tight hide boxes provided? These things if not correct can often lead a ball not to want to eat. Make sure your temps are correct and you have plenty of dark hides provided.
Also, in defense of the breeder, just because your baby isnt eating,, doesnt mean you got an unhealthy snake. There are a number or reasons a healthy ball wont eat. As far as not calling, well it could be he knew there was a problem with your snake, or he couldsimply just be terrible at customer support or follow up care. Either one in my book would be a poor practice for any breeder.

Just my 2 cents good luck!
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This is courage.. to bear unflinching what heaven sends. -unknown

1.0 Basset Hound (Capone)
1.1 cats (San Quinton and Gracie)

I wouldn't jump on Special K just yet! Granted, I don't know the poster at all and there may be a problem, but I do know Tim (Special K) and that doesn't sound like him! I've sold snakes to people who don't listen to one thing you say, the animal has some difficulty and you're the bad guy! The biggest thing is letting animals getting acclimated! Leave them alone!

Most ball pythons won't even look twice at a pinky. In addition to the other advice you've been given on your cage setup, try a hopper mouse or a small adult mouse. The hoopers particularly often seem to get a response from picky feeders.
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Snakes:
1.1 gray banded kingsnake
1.1 california kingsnake
1.1 kenyan sand boa
1.1 western hognose snake
0.1 albino checkered garter
1.0 florida blue garter
1.1 het anery red sided garter
1.1 reverse oketee corn snake
1.1 blood red corn snake
0.1 amel striped corn
1.0 amel 66% het striped corn
1.1 het albino ball python
1.1 het ghost ball python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 pastel ball python
1.1 mojave ball python
1.0 butter ball python
0.1 ringer ball python
1.0 African dinker ball python
0.3 normal ball python
1.0 piebald ball python
0.1 het piebald ball python
0.1 Genetic Stripe Ball Python
1.0 Het Genetic Stripe Ball Python
0.1 Mystic Ball Python

Turtles
1-eastern box turtle
2-spotted turtle
2-eastern/midland painted turtle intergrade
1.0-common musk turtle
1-Pink bellied sideneck
6-Northern red belly

Invertebrates
0.1 southern black widow
1-Tanzanian Giant Tailless whipscorpion

Amphibians
0.1 Ornate Horned Frog

Birds:
1.1 red avadavit
2-blue breasted cordon blue
1.1-black cheeked waxbill
0.1-star finch
1.0-Java rice sparrow
2.0-owl finch
1.0-hybrid munia
0.1-White bellied caique

Fish
2-corydoras cats
1-African upside down cat

normal stuff
0.1 black lab

I agree w/Jason! You're wasting your time w/pinkies! A ball that size can take a hopper/small adult easy!

I would suggest getting your Vet to flagyl her. Dose her @ 75 mg per kg every 3 days for two treatments.

Don't even bother having him/her do a cloacal wash...this will further stress the animal out. Be careful not to have him/her put it through any test. The flagyl may turn that snake around. Also, when assist feeding you may want to get onto a 2 x week schedule so the animal's organs don't begin to shut down.

No antibiotics or none of what some vets may try to do...just this.....and assist feeding....

Kevin

>>Hey everybody,
>>
>> Me and my girlfriend have owned snakes for a few ears and have some experience, but all of the snakes we had before our precious little zoey have been 100% healthy with great appetites. So we have a couple questions, or maybe its just one big one to ask you all. Anyways,we got her at the last NARBC in tinley park IL, from Special K Reptiles. I have since emailed him with my trouble and he seems completely unworried, which basically means unhelpful at this point so I'm not sure if he knew the snake had a problem or not before we bought her.
>>
>>The snake has not once since getting her taken a meal by herself. She was small when we got her, and she became almost nothing but skin and bones trying to feed her various fuzzies and pinkies, live and dead, before after a few weeks we decided to assist feed her.
>>
>>We assist fed her and she took it well, and gained a bit of weight back. We had done this three weeks in a row, after she refuses the meal, but the past 2-3 weeks she has not let us even feed her this way. It was easy to get her to open her mouth, put the fuzzy in and let her go at first, but she just wont open her mouth for us anymore and when she does she spits the mouse out the second we put her down.
>>
>>I was thinking she may be getting ready to shed, and for some reason refusing to take it any way we give it to her. But I dont have much experience with this and cant really make any assumptions. She is very skinny but has only lost 3 grams in the past 2 weeks(79 down to 77 grams) but has grown about 3-4 inches longer than what she was when we got her.
>>
>>If anyone has any advice on what we should do, or think they know what may be wrong with her please respond. We are giving her another week to shape up and then its a trip to the vet.
>>
>>Thanks
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Kevin, when he does this does he want to increase temps or humidity or anything like that during this time, just wondered? Thanks!

Anthony Mccain

The best pieces of advice so far, in my opinion:

The cage for a baby ball python doesn't need to be any bigger than a 10 gallon tank. If you have it in something bigger than this, they might be stressed and not eating. Downsize ASAP.

Leave it alone. Don't open the cage unless absolutely necessary (refill water, check temps), don't handle it, don't try to feed it, for at least 10 days to 2 weeks.

Pinkies and fuzzies are far too small for even baby Ball Pythons. Try a hopper/weanling mouse or even an adult. If you have been offering frozen/thawed, offer live. The extra movement and warm fur can make all the difference. If you really want to make your job easier for the future, offer large rat pups instead of mice so you won't end up with a strict mouser on your hands.

Double check all of your temps. Cool spot about 78-82 degrees, warm spot of about 89-91 degrees. This gradient is important for thermoregulation.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

The last few post have offered great advice. We have been trying fuzzies to small mice live(they are right on the borderbetween the two)and then if she doesnt eat we end up having to force feed her after the second try.

The temperatures are right in the range you gave me, 77 cool side, 88 hot side,with plenty of hiding space. The humidity is around 50-60%.

We had left her alone for a week when we first got her, and another week after her first refusal, and only tried assist feeding and worrying when she was pretty weak and losing weight.

I mean to say nothing bad about special K or tim, just merely he seemed unconcerned with the problem when I emailed him about it two weeks after we got her-or rather like the problem will go away in a week or two. We followed his advice with no good result, and two months later I am seeking others advice.

Someone asked what other snakes we have had, and we have had twoball pythons, 2 cornsnakes and one kingsnake. The other bal python is kept in in the same conditions except with more space now that hes a bit bigger.

Ok, hmmmm. It does look like you are covering all of your bases. I guess the next step would be to (as others have suggested) take her to a vet and get a check on her. Have all her feces been normal?

Another thing you could try is a small prekilled mouse or rat pup left in the cage overnight. I have one male BP who, for whatever reason, is a shy eater. This is the only way he will eat it seems. I have heard that exposing the brains can help, but I wouldn't jump straight to that yet.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

I did try that once, leaving one in her cage over night. She didn't take it then but I believe it is worth another shot as last time I did not expose brain matter. Thank you guys for all your help. I think I will just take her to the vet should she loseany more weight, or if she does not take a mouse on her own in the next two weeks.

Her feces as far as I can tell is fine, but we havent had any test done on it yet, which is why we are trying to wait to take her to a vet is actually just waiting for her next poo.

We ended up taking zoey to the vet a week after this thread, where they told us to try much the same things everybody here had said, however certain aspects of her condition had yet to become very noticable, and the vet gave her the benifit of the doubt in terms of health for the first vist. A few weeks after taking her to the vet, still no feeding response, we noticed her body was losing weight in a very weird way and leaving what looked like lumps. We took her to the vet again and as it turns out most of what we thought was some sort of muscle tissue and weight to her was in fact fluid retention caused by underdeveloped and failing kidneys- Appearently due to inbreeding and/or bad genetics. They are so underdeveloped that the vet cannot even locate them. She is also starting to get blood pooling in two parts of her body just under the skin. She has had these kidney problems from birth, and is doing her best to pull through but it is an uphill battle, and makes me question business and breeding ethics...